General Discussion and Suggestions

[CKirk]

The numbers on the Mob stuff don't seem to be where they should be, reasonably. Not part of the mecha rules, though.

On the Spell banning we're not exactly talking about Super Robot Wars per se, more of Ols's concepts in general.

And I know it's part of his Improved Monster Classes. The Darkweaver, Bebilith, Gray Linnorm, Animated Object (most likely what the mini mechs were), Roper, Tendriculos, Leng Spider, Shambling Mound, Wild Hunt, Ice Golem, Half-Golem, & the Greel (plus a few others) all go the extreme of Dimensional Anchor, nearly every single one of them negate Freedom of Movement, and reach Large or bigger Sizes. The ones that hit Huge auto-win their Grapple Checks vs Medium Creatures effectively making them inescapable unavoidable TPK attacks unless your Touch AC is pumped to unimaginable heights which is about the only way to deal with it in sort of applying more Ols's homebrew to the situation (like super's you can't touch me counters). And this is just one facet of Ols's love for totally raping people in a game, and some how he wants to preach Save-or-Dies are terrible because they at least offer a Save. >.>

His tweaks are not more balanced, just different and arguably less so.

Maybe if Freedom of Movement didn't *completely negate* an entire combat style it wouldn't be important to ignore it? If perhaps it only provided a bonus to defensive grapple rather than just completely ignoring grapple? Sorry, that's just a thing that bugs me. Casters already too strong, and they can just ignore entire builds with single spells

[oslecamo]

So, Oslecamo, just noticed a typo in Born to Fight that changes the meaning. it says "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) in a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."

It should probably say "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) on a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."

I'm not a native english speaker. I'm afraid that type of detail goes beyond my grammar knowledge and so if you could explain the difference in this case I would be thankful.

The numbers on the Mob stuff don't seem to be where they should be, reasonably. Not part of the mecha rules, though.

On the Spell banning we're not exactly talking about Super Robot Wars per se, more of Ols's concepts in general.

And I know it's part of his Improved Monster Classes. The Darkweaver, Bebilith, Gray Linnorm, Animated Object (most likely what the mini mechs were), Roper, Tendriculos, Leng Spider, Shambling Mound, Wild Hunt, Ice Golem, Half-Golem, & the Greel (plus a few others) all go the extreme of Dimensional Anchor, nearly every single one of them negate Freedom of Movement, and reach Large or bigger Sizes. The ones that hit Huge auto-win their Grapple Checks vs Medium Creatures effectively making them inescapable unavoidable TPK attacks unless your Touch AC is pumped to unimaginable heights which is about the only way to deal with it in sort of applying more Ols's homebrew to the situation (like super's you can't touch me counters). And this is just one facet of Ols's love for totally raping people in a game, and some how he wants to preach Save-or-Dies are terrible because they at least offer a Save. >.>

His tweaks are not more balanced, just different and arguably less so.

What's the save against whifing your grapple attempts on Mirror Images?
What's the save of automatically failing your grapple against Heart of Water at 5th level (3 levels before the ignore-FoM of my monster classes comes online).
What's the save against trying to reach the mage's that flying above you?
What's the save against abrupt jaunt? (6-7 levels before most people can get Dimensional Anchor).
What's the save against the caster just using magic to turn themselves even bigger with a massive Str boost and auto-beat everybody else's grapple? Even if polymorph's out the table, plenty of other buffs for that around.

By level 8 ignoring Freedom of Movement and Dimensional Anchor is the bare minimum for a grappling build not to be rendered irrevant by the mage's secondary abilities, or even abilities they had from the start of the game. And even then it's an uphill struggle. You still have to keep up with the mage's superior mobility and get through their illusions and then pray they didn't debuff you into a wimp nor buffed themselves into godlike mode.

[CKirk]

So, Oslecamo, just noticed a typo in Born to Fight that changes the meaning. it says "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) in a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."

It should probably say "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) on a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."

I'm not a native english speaker. I'm afraid that type of detail goes beyond my grammar knowledge and so if you could explain the difference in this case I would be thankful.

The first case says you can inflict those effects while inside a mech, the second case says you can inflict those effects to a mech. I've noticed you also make this mistake when talking about stances a lot. On generally refers to being above something, or doing something to something, while in means inside of, or using. Does that help?

[Rekmond]

actually the odd wording on the first seems to imply that you can inflict an effect on a person inside a mech? Because "In a mecha" and "While on foot and smaller" are entirely different things to my understanding.

Using 'On a mecha' implies that the effect is directed at the mecha itself, even if you are ant sized in comparison.

[CKirk]

actually the odd wording on the first seems to imply that you can inflict an effect on a person inside a mech? Because "In a mecha" and "While on foot and smaller" are entirely different things to my understanding.

Using 'On a mecha' implies that the effect is directed at the mecha itself, even if you are ant sized in comparison.

Yeah, but there's nothing currently stopping you from affecting people inside a mecha anyway, only the mecha itself

[ketaro]

I think a mecha blocks line of effect and sight to the pilot, no?

[Rekmond]

I think a mecha blocks line of effect and sight to the pilot, no?

As far as I know.

makes it really annoying to hit your target (cockpit) with that quiver of nice Brilliant Energy Arrows.

[SorO_Lost]

Maybe if Freedom of Movement didn't *completely negate* an entire combat style it wouldn't be important to ignore it?

Who said Grapple was a "combat style"? It's an optional attack, one of four special types excluding what attacks are supposed to do, that all creatures in the game can use and PCs have the biggest disadvantage in this area compared to larger creatures that have a huge advantage. Immunity to Grapple is a balancing mechanic designed to increase the survivability of PCs.

Casters already too strong, and they can just ignore entire builds with single spells

Actually, most of everyone's top protection Spells such Protection From Evil, Death Ward, Mindblank, Anti-Magic Field, Dispel, and yes Freedom of Movement because Grapple is just one tiny aspect of it, and so on are all anti-caster things that a mundane typically doesn't even care if his target has.

But they in every single way make that mundane more effective at dealing with caster than if he couldn't use any of those and that is utterly inarguable. Banning them actually makes casters even more powerful than you already perceive them to be.


I guess it's Q&A time.
Q: What's the save against whifing your grapple attempts on Mirror Images?
A: Blindsense, totally negates Mirror Image since the figments relay on sight, and your Mechs can all have it.
Also Scent which is available as a 1st level Tiger Claw Stance and trained dogs.

Q: What's the save of automatically failing your grapple against Heart of Water at 5th level?
A: Seeing how you've literally chosen to ice sake up hill to prove how badass you can optimize, try optimizing some more.
Also your Attack Action just made them burn a 4th level Spell which is a pretty fair trade seeing how you probably get more than four of those per day, or in a single Full-Attack. And if you were seriously about Grapple you'd probably have an Improved Grab like ability. So the the attempted Grapple is actually just an added bonus after dealing your full damage and trying to kill them anyway.

Q: What's the save against trying to reach the mage's that flying above you?
A1: Remind Ols to stop hating ranged weapons before he forgets they exist.
A2: Try flying after them using a flying mount that costs less than 200gp and lasts longer than five minutes.

Q: What's the save against abrupt jaunt?
A: If you're using a Ranged Weapon, just continue to shoot them in the face anyway. It's almost like ranged weapons are a very important and integral part of balancing the game or something. If you're melee, seeing how this is a very specific Class Feature that one and only one Class gets in the entire game I'll just throw out a Feat to counter it, Martial Study[sudden leap]. Also, than range on that is only 10ft right? Reach+5ft step or the 10ft step Training dummy work too.

Q: What's the save against the caster just using magic to turn themselves even bigger with a massive Str boost?
A: Giggle manically at how stupid the player is. Then, if he wasted an action on it, stab him in the face. If he Persisted, then it's probably a high powered game where you can buy your own Str Boosts and stab him in the face anyway. Otherwise, apply liberal usage a Ring of Freedom of Movement which is one of the contributing factors to why Spellcasters should not use Polymorph to turn into brutes and try to pretend they are a Martial Adept.

I'm not necessarily saying D&D is balanced. However this thread has taught me that you are extremely short sighted. You don't even pay attention to over half of the rules because they don't thematically appeal to you, you don't view the rules as a whole, you can't see how things connect, you don't even try to follow the chain reaction that happens each time you alter a rule, and perhaps the greatest thing of all; you do not create a plan or even envision the end goal before approaching a subject. Like if you wanted creatures to bypass a mundane's anti-supernatural gear to reinforce caster supremacy, why didn't you at least try to remain consistent? Every other immune-bypasser respects immunity and nerfs it into a bonus so why doesn't FoM in your homebrew just negate Size benefits as it's type of bonus?

[Anomander]

Updated the Mecha Engineer to the new hardpoint system. Added a restriction on accessories now since the penalties are out. Added the volatile weapon option as well. Maintenance/Reinforce now grant additional support options by allowing the engineer to use the kit options on other mechas with a standard action at touch range.


@Osle
Sentient upgrades: Does Imprint implies by "stats" that it gets only the ability scores of the pilot or is it meant to include all his bonuses to just about everything, as what may be granted by class features (which aren't imprinted). Supporting mentions that the bonus is granted to a pilot currently piloting it with an immediate action, but it can only act while the pilot isn't inside the mecha. Usually you need to be within the mecha to be piloting it. Unless by "currently piloting it" it refers to the ownership of the mecha, or the last pilot to have piloted it. It isn't clear.

Built-in weapons: Just to clarify, when a mecha gets an arsenal weapon, is it built-in or treated as a regular weapon? I've always assumed arsenal weapons aren't built-in. I now also recall that you also stated once that a mecha doesn't get unarmed strikes... would a pilot gestalting with Monk or similar then get no mecha kungfu skills? I've seen a lot of mecha do martial arts, is all.

[CKirk]

Updated the Mecha Engineer to the new hardpoint system. Added a restriction on accessories now since the penalties are out. Added the volatile weapon option as well. Maintenance/Reinforce now grant additional support options by allowing the engineer to use the kit options on other mechas with a standard action at touch range.

Any plans to write Custom Soul Accessories (as mentioned in the Soul of the Mechanic feat), or are those still a long way off?

[Anomander]

I might. There's plenty more to add to it though I'd likely have to read a whole bunch of reference material for inspiration and names. Some branches need more options too so I'll probably focus on those already there before adding a whole new one. Ideally there would be 2-4 options per arsenal level depending on the branch, so as you can see I'm still pretty under.

[CKirk]

We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).
Also, it resulted in a question. Can spirits like Prayer (which affect “you or your mech”) affect other pilots in the same mech?

And from my players:

Feat worked well mechanically. Action economy was a good tradeoff for having multiple spirit pools and more HP. After fighting against it, I’m excited to gattai up with the rest of my party. No issues with the feat, no suggestions to make on it.

Feat use synergizes very well. Letting multiple spirits effect one mech is evil, but cool. The prayer question comes from my actions; I did a small amount of debuffing on individuals pilots and only one had prayer apparently. Now, semi related question (happened during combat): Since a spectral hand is incorporeal, can it be used to target individual pilots? In game I used it to touch a pilot that was currently not piloting the mech.

The versatility that the multi-form HEATS brought to the game was a lot of fun, but it took a looooong time to play. The increased effective spirit pool meant that they were active the whole time, while the party spent a lot more time saving up EN and SP. Overall I think the reduced action economy for more power and options is a fair tradeoff

Also, there's a dodge booster in every accessory grade except 3. is it intentional that grade 3 doesn't have one?

And Anomander, is it intentional that Mecha Engineer's Energy Shield is just plain better than the G Wall at arsenal VI?

[Anomander]

And Anomander, is it intentional that Mecha Engineer's Energy Shield is just plain better than the G Wall at arsenal VI?

Yes. At Arsenal VI there is already an accessory that grants G-Wall. I could give it a different twist at VI too instead.
Also, updated Maintenance and Reinforce since the support arsenal options were just changed to be usable on other mechas at range by default. They now grant extra range with them.

[CKirk]

Oslecamo, I've got a couple questions about various transforming robots. So, supers without fly speeds gain a fly speed equal to land speed if in jet mode. Fair enough. it's +50% (and Perfect) if they already have a fly speed. That sounds reasonable. Lets take a look at transforming reals. Holy crap the Astelion gets a fivefold increase in speed with its jet mode. The Wildraubtier gets its speed multiplied by 7.5. Sure, they're limited to only built in weapons in jet mode...but Super Robots are even more limited, to just one built in weapon. Supers get +4 dodge and -2 nat armor, while Reals get +2 doge. Is there a particular reason why Reals get such overwhelmingly better jet modes? I mean, sure, Supers tend to have better in-builts, but the Astelion's Star Breakers, at least, are incredibly good. I don't particularly mind (as it hasn't come up in my campaign, and as we don't actually have any normal Real Pilots, it's unlikely to), but I would like to know why this is the case, and if it's intentional.

While I'm on the topic of transforming Reals, can we get an option for generics to transform? I kinda want to make the Valhawk 

[Rekmond]

Personally I think part of it is the Real vs Super ideology. Reals are all about superior gear, there's no arguing that. That is the product of tons of R&D and testing before it ever gets implemented full scale.

A Super Pilot will have lower standards because they often don't wait for something to be completely cleared, they need it NOW, and will keep it working with blood, sweat, and tears.

[oslecamo]

We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).

Out of curiosity, did you stat up the different transformations beforehand? If you're doing it on the fly yeah it's gonna take time.

Also, it resulted in a question.
 Can spirits like Prayer (which affect “you or your mech”) affect other pilots in the same mech?

Well before they technically couldn't but a team pilot patching others with Prayer is intended so updated that.

Feat use synergizes very well. Letting multiple spirits effect one mech is evil, but cool. The prayer question comes from my actions; I did a small amount of debuffing on individuals pilots and only one had prayer apparently. Now, semi related question (happened during combat): Since a spectral hand is incorporeal, can it be used to target individual pilots? In game I used it to touch a pilot that was currently not piloting the mech.

That's something that's up to the DM and situatin. You would need something to know where the pilot is located and stuff.

The versatility that the multi-form HEATS brought to the game was a lot of fun, but it took a looooong time to play. The increased effective spirit pool meant that they were active the whole time, while the party spent a lot more time saving up EN and SP. Overall I think the reduced action economy for more power and options is a fair tradeoff

Thanks! Always great to hear play reports.

Also, there's a dodge booster in every accessory grade except 3. is it intentional that grade 3 doesn't have one?

Fixed.

Oslecamo, I've got a couple questions about various transforming robots. So, supers without fly speeds gain a fly speed equal to land speed if in jet mode. Fair enough. it's +50% (and Perfect) if they already have a fly speed. That sounds reasonable. Lets take a look at transforming reals. Holy crap the Astelion gets a fivefold increase in speed with its jet mode. The Wildraubtier gets its speed multiplied by 7.5. Sure, they're limited to only built in weapons in jet mode...but Super Robots are even more limited, to just one built in weapon. Supers get +4 dodge and -2 nat armor, while Reals get +2 doge. Is there a particular reason why Reals get such overwhelmingly better jet modes? I mean, sure, Supers tend to have better in-builts, but the Astelion's Star Breakers, at least, are incredibly good. I don't particularly mind (as it hasn't come up in my campaign, and as we don't actually have any normal Real Pilots, it's unlikely to), but I would like to know why this is the case, and if it's intentional.

Intentional since "gotta go fast" is something a lot more characteristic of Real Robot shows. Yes sure Supers do it sometimes, but it's only to get closer faster and then melee it out.

While I'm on the topic of transforming Reals, can we get an option for generics to transform? I kinda want to make the Valhawk 

No to transforming generics. There's multiclass with super robot for that. But added Valhawk at grade III. And R-1 at grade I. May as well stat up a transforming real for each level.

Personally I think part of it is the Real vs Super ideology. Reals are all about superior gear, there's no arguing that. That is the product of tons of R&D and testing before it ever gets implemented full scale.

A Super Pilot will have lower standards because they often don't wait for something to be completely cleared, they need it NOW, and will keep it working with blood, sweat, and tears.

Heh, true in some cases, but the reverse in others.

Several Super shows have the titular robot being something really old that was refined for decades/centuries waiting for the big bad to show up. Heck, Great Mazinger even had their pilot trained from birth for the job!

While the iconic Gundam often has unstable prototypes being deployed with almost no testing because the enemy army is invading right now and is do or die. SEED has the coordinators coding the machine's operative systems in the mid of battle! Although then Char pilots a good old Zaku II with just a red paint job. Because red ones go faster. That's something indeed researched and tested in a large scale, just ask Gundam 00 where eventually everybody is doing it, mooks included.

[Rekmond]

Fair, I think my logic holds better with more mass produced models. Gundams may be real robots (almost always), but they are usually as unique as their pilots. Most mass produced models never really get a chance to shine within gundam outside some notable times when given an amazing pilot.

Char in a Zaku causing people nightmares and the Gouf piloted by Norris Packard among my personal favorites.

And while a different series, I have played the Dynasty Warriors Gundam series, and seeing Char's Red Zaku being taken up against a set of Trans AM Gundams and win simply due to being able to hit and run on a scale outside anything else in the game.......is horrifying. Even the Reborns couldn't touch it. If the Gundams hit it, it may as well have been made of paper mache, tested that, but it could enter and clear an area in seconds.

[oslecamo]

Yeah, really need to do a "Char" prc. Your mecha stops upgrading, but you learn to pilot it so well you can dodge/hit everything.

[CKirk]

We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).

Out of curiosity, did you stat up the different transformations beforehand? If you're doing it on the fly yeah it's gonna take time.

I did. The issue was more that I wasn't able to memorize all the different options, because level 7 characters in this system have a *lot* of options. Also, recording changes to spirit pools was awkward (which happened because the combined unit had Soul of the Machine)

Is the reason the Counter feat can't be used to trigger counters just balance? Because I've got players that want to be able to use multiple counters (maneuvers) in one round.
Also, Why is the soulgain listed in the real robots description but not the chart, and vice-versa for the arkgain. Are they intended to be the same unit?
Also, the R-1 is listed as the R1 in the real robot list. either both instances should be R-1 or both should be R1 (this is bugging one of my players).
Also, the Rapiecage doesn't have a maneuverability listed for its fly speed

Also, you commented on making a transforming mecha for all arsenal grades. some suggestions my players came up with: Altairlion (which would of course need a corresponding Vegalion), Wildraubtier Schnabel, and ART-1 (which would also serve to fix my minor gripe about "why can't the R-1 have T-Link Knuckle?)

[CKirk]

The Alteisen Riese seems to be overpowered in comparison to other options. It has more HP than is possible on a super robot (the designated tanks) at 400 as compared to the max HP on a super robot being 315 (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 390). It has more natural armor than a super can have at 22 as compared to the 12 a super can have (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 18). It has more DR than a super can have at 40 as compared to 35 (without Great Plating, which does bring it up to 48, if it’s colossal). It has the same EN as a super without batteries, but supers tend to be more energy intensive than reals anyway. It has a +7 bonus to saves, while a super can only have at most +6. It has 125Mu movement speed, while a super's top speed is 85Mu (without Great Agility, which does bring it up to 140, if it's colossal). It has five hardpoints, more than any other unit in the conversion save the Ashsaber. Its weapons, likewise, are incredibly powerful. its Revolving Bunker would take 9 super robot upgrades to recreate (roughly), and that's not including its to hit bonus. While this is partially balanced out by its low ammo count, it's still incredibly strong. The Claymore Avalanche is also a very powerful weapon. It's stronger than anything a super robot can have save a fully Mighty'd twinned heavy weapon, and even that will consume much more resources than the Claymores.

As for its comparisons with reals, it has the same net AC bonus as its closest competitor in the role of melee real, the Banpreios, four times the move speed, 33% more HP, only 5 less EN (and only has one EN consuming weapon), +2 points of save bonus, +15 arsenal space, +3 hardpoints, and 5 extra DR. As for a weapon comparison, while Altered Full Burst does have a massive range increase over the Claymore Avalanche, it does less damage and can only be fired twice before needing recharging, as compared to the claymore's four shots. similarly, while the T-Link Tronium Edge is much stronger than the Revolving Bunker, it can only be fired once as opposed to six times. Ranged combat is the only area the Alteisen Riese truly suffers, where it is greatly outdone by the Astranagant

If this is not an intentional design aspect, I would recommend reducing its capabilities in either defenses or weapons, or improving its competitors. If this is an intentional design aspect, would you please explain why?