Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 247369 times)

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #740 on: July 07, 2017, 11:04:53 PM »
Also hi, I managed to activate my MMB account =D
Sup, welcome to MMF (or maybe MMX?).

I've heard MMX, mostly.

Anyway, I'm curious as to the state of Oslecamo's campaign under this system, because I'd like confirmation that the one I'm playing isn't the only one  :P

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #741 on: July 07, 2017, 11:55:11 PM »
Also hi, I managed to activate my MMB account =D
Sup, welcome to MMF (or maybe MMX?).

I've heard MMX, mostly.

Anyway, I'm curious as to the state of Oslecamo's campaign under this system, because I'd like confirmation that the one I'm playing isn't the only one  :P

It lives! It is also slowness incarnate, but that's nothing new.

Offline RickyRedhsirt

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #742 on: July 08, 2017, 02:14:01 AM »
Just stopping by and saying hello. I've been playing your system for the past few months now with some other posters and wanted to say thanks for everything so far. I don't think of myself as experienced with PF/3.5 systems as my colleagues but I try my best.

I'm not one to usually ask questions, but if anything comes up I'll post it.

Again, Thanks for creating this!

Offline Fzzr

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #743 on: July 08, 2017, 02:38:08 PM »
Nice nerf on Strike!

Offline Fzzr

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #744 on: July 14, 2017, 03:00:43 PM »
Hey Oslecamo,

Looking at the new Android ACF for Battleship Captain, I find it pretty underpowered. They essentially lose an entire class feature (Officers) with no replacement. I have a number of suggestions as to what could replace that feature.


My main suggestion is: “Instead of experienced Officers, the Android gains advanced cyberwarfare capabilities. Each time the Android would gain an Officer, they instead gain any three Internet Explorer maneuvers which they would otherwise be qualified for based on their level. (So 3 total at level 6, 6 total at level 12). They may trade in all the maneuvers gained from this feature at levels 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Once per round they may use one of the maneuvers they gained from this feature while paying 50% of the energy cost. They may only use a maneuver when they would otherwise have been able to use it, but doing so counts as a free action.”


These parts are optional/alternative if you think more or different parts are necessary:

  • Just replace the whole feature above with “Without a crew, the Android’s battleship has more space for batteries and capacitors. At levels 6 and 12 they gain 40 extra base energy, for a total of 80. They may use energy to pay for spirits.”
  • Change the sentence about “Each time the Android would gain an Officer...” to “Each time the Android would gain an Officer, they instead gain any three Internet Explorer maneuvers. For the first three maneuvers, they qualify based on their level -4. For the second three maneuvers, they qualify at their level -8.” This would also apply when trading in maneuvers.
  • “Additionally, at level 6 they gain 20 base energy and at level 12 they gain 40 base energy, for a total of 60.“
  • “They may also use INT instead of CHA where relevant in the Terror Tactics school, but no other maneuver rules are modified with regard to that school.”
  • Make the entire feature about Terror Tactics instead of Internet Explorer. It makes a good amount of sense as a debuff/mezz school. In that case, they should also lose normal access to that school, essentially trading in fewer maneuvers available from TT for the ability to use them more often.
  • “Once per turn on their turn only the Android may invert their leadership aura. Instead of buffing allies in range, it debuffs enemies in range for the same stats an ally would be buffed in. However, this only debuffs 50% of how much an ally would have been buffed. All other Leadership-related feats and features apply as normal. Leadership-related calculations use INT instead of CHA.”

The reasons for each change are as follows:
  • Officers for Maneuvers: The benefit of an officer is essentially an extra spirit pool for the BB. Instead of keeping that feature by some other means, I suggest turning the BB from a buff focus to a debuff focus. Rather than create a whole parallel Spirit system for this ACF, I suggest using the pre-existing IE school. Internet Explorer is already INT-based, so it has nice synergy with the CHA for INT swap on Ships Full Of Hope.
  • 50% Cost: This is so they can use the feature without entirely trading in other capabilities (just like a normal captain doesn’t lose any other normal features for the extra spirit). This also means the extra energy from the feature doesn’t have to be a huge amount, which would potentially unbalance other parts of the class. It could also be that the extra energy may only be used for the IE maneuvers, not other things.
  • Switch to energy for spirit: If you do want to keep the normal use of a battleship, this is a way to do it with different balance. This is a lot simpler and replaces the key issue with the ACF as it is, which is the loss of a significant resource pool. It gives them flexibility to use the energy for other things, but doesn’t add a ton of new capabilities.
  • Level limit on maneuvers: Maneuvers can be very powerful, so this is a parallel to the leveled down officers from the original feature.
  • Extra Energy: This is to parallel the extra spirit for the Captain. Instead of losing a resource pool they trade it in.
  • Terror Tactics: This helps make another school useful with the INT swap and fits thematically, but otherwise doesn’t provide a buff. Changing the whole original idea to TT avoids giving the Captain a whole new class of abilities, but I personally like the idea of a whole new take on the class.
  • Leadership inversion: This is a thematic thing. It could also be just always negative, I don’t feel strongly about the swapping back and forth thing either. The switch to INT here also increases synergy with the original idea.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #745 on: July 14, 2017, 09:01:38 PM »
I felt like it was underpowered but didn't really know what to give in return. Extra energy sounds better, since you need to run less life support and stuff.

Removed the int for cha from the ACF and made it an android feat, Cold Calculations, that also works for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate besides Terror Tactics and Ships Full of Hope, plus Peace Princess for good measure. 

Just stopping by and saying hello. I've been playing your system for the past few months now with some other posters and wanted to say thanks for everything so far. I don't think of myself as experienced with PF/3.5 systems as my colleagues but I try my best.

I'm not one to usually ask questions, but if anything comes up I'll post it.

Again, Thanks for creating this!

You're welcome. :)

Offline Fzzr

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #746 on: July 15, 2017, 03:51:20 AM »
Now I feel silly for coming up with all those crazy ideas. Well, thanks for improving it!

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #747 on: July 16, 2017, 01:23:08 PM »
Quote
Soul of the Machine: The main pilot's maximum spirit points are increased by 5 and at the start of their turn they recover 1 spirit point.

This looks like a super pilot upgrade that's meant to be taken more than once. It's not very useful otherwise.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #748 on: July 16, 2017, 02:03:32 PM »
This looks like a super pilot upgrade that's meant to be taken more than once. It's not very useful otherwise.
By default they stack.
Quote
Each level of the Super Pilot class gives four Upgrade points. Those upgrade points can be spent in any of the following options. You cannot pick each option more times than  your 1+(1/2 pilot level). Some options demand a certain level before they can be taken, as noted on the respective entry. You must spend all upgrade points as soon as you get them. If an upgrade doesnt have a listed cost, it simply costs 1 point.
Also Osl just ran through my sheet a month before MMB went down looking for every error he could and I used it as a stacking upgrade which didn't get flagged.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #749 on: July 16, 2017, 02:13:48 PM »
I thought they had to be noted to stack, that must've changed at some point.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #750 on: July 16, 2017, 02:25:37 PM »
I thought they had to be noted to stack, that must've changed at some point.
The required noted to stack is D&D's base rules, it's just the Upgrades override those.

What you may be thinking of is how several Upgrades can only be taken once per four levels (like growth), or their costs increase (like hyperdimensional storage), or can only be taken once (like great).

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #751 on: July 16, 2017, 02:36:22 PM »
I mean that I think I remember an earlier revision saying that they only stacked if noted?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #752 on: July 16, 2017, 08:15:44 PM »
Mysterious Power and Nanomachines are still pretty huge traps. Take 9 upgrade points to get Reactor III or the healing, when for 10 you can get 4 hardpoints. One of which can easily be spent on a Reactor item. And the hardpoints will scale and can get changed out.

Since regeneration isn't the only way to restore HP, they're pretty bad alternatives--one you can get even if you go for arsenal access, ffs/

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #753 on: July 17, 2017, 10:21:34 AM »
Nerfed hyperdimensional storage so that you must alternate picks between the extra arsenal and extra hardpoints.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #754 on: July 17, 2017, 11:19:00 AM »
That still doesn't fix it. It's still a 1-point investment to get access to scaling Reactor accessories, and for 6 you can get that and repair kits and a weapon--or fill the second slot with whatever. It's 5 points to get Reactor II or Nanomachines II. Mysterious Power and Nanomachines are at their most viable before you can get better Arsenal gear... but at that point you don't have the huge energy demands or as much HP to regen.

MP and Nanomachines are simply not worth the cost; you have to invest more and more into them to get any sort of improvement, and in doing so you're losing access to spoiler after spoiler of other things.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:19:03 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #755 on: July 17, 2017, 12:03:45 PM »
MP and Nanomachines are simply not worth the cost;
Yep.

You don't even need to discuss Osl's love to change Arsenal, just stop at something like Nanomachines. Like for example a level 10 with Spirit Regen will regenerate 30 spirit points over three rounds allowing them to use Refresh twice, healing a total of 20d10 (110 avg), and their robot's base HP is 105. Even if you attempt to shew things in favor of the Nanomachines, saying Plating x6 for 165hp, you still need to spend six upgrade points for 30% regen to match one Feat. You have better things to spend points on.

So tomorrow Spirit Regen will probably be nerfed, then Tek Soul after that.  ;)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #756 on: July 17, 2017, 01:47:55 PM »
That still doesn't fix it. It's still a 1-point investment to get access to scaling Reactor accessories, and for 6 you can get that and repair kits and a weapon--or fill the second slot with whatever. It's 5 points to get Reactor II or Nanomachines II. Mysterious Power and Nanomachines are at their most viable before you can get better Arsenal gear... but at that point you don't have the huge energy demands or as much HP to regen.

MP and Nanomachines are simply not worth the cost; you have to invest more and more into them to get any sort of improvement, and in doing so you're losing access to spoiler after spoiler of other things.

Made hyperdimensional storage unable to grab you hardpoints, although also granted super robots one hardpoint by default. Supers were never meant to spam acessories to start with.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #757 on: July 18, 2017, 12:49:01 AM »
Damn. Now I have to go spend 1 hardpoint on my nanoarmor -.-

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #758 on: July 18, 2017, 01:07:58 AM »
I was implying that the Super options need some sort of buff or cost decrease to be worth taking--or something like taking the size-linked upgrades and making them stackable but incompatible with arsenal stuff.

Not... leaving the Arsenal untouched and just hacking off access. This is a pretty direct nerf to Super Robots--because your own CF's are inferior to behind-level arsenal access, block said access. Carrot and stick needs some carrot.

I mean, the simple version is that if accessories were better than access to two upgrades--either the upgrades need a buff, the accessories need a nerf, or the upgrades are overcosted.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:26:07 AM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Fzzr

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #759 on: July 18, 2017, 03:57:34 AM »
I agree with just slightly buffing nanomachines and mysterious power. The main concern is that they're an inefficient use of points. I would suggest just reducing them to one point each time, no matter how many times you take them. They should still be 1 per 4HD and mutually exclusive with each other and hyper storage. You'd still have to give something up to take them, but it would no longer be an obviously bad trade. Hyper Storage (before changes) adds more flexibility (weapons and hardpoints both being swappable) than nanomachines and mysterious power, so it makes sense to have it be more expensive.

Regarding Supers, Arsenal, and Hardpoints: A Real Pilot can get a non-generic mecha with four hardpoints at level 7 (Alteisen, Weissritter, Wildschwein, and Valhawk all have four). A Super starting with 0 hardpoints and with hyper storage IV to get four hardpoints has to be level 16 and deal with an opportunity cost of ten upgrade points - two and a half levels worth. They would also be giving up access to almost every non-special arsenal weapon. Supers already can't match any real-based class for arsenal/hardpoint access - I don't think it's necessary to cut them off entirely.

Edit: Okay I did the math again and that's still not a good trade. Accessories are still so good as to make even a single point of hyper better than nanomachines or mysterious power very quickly. Thinking some more.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 04:03:08 AM by Fzzr »