General Discussion and Suggestions

[YuweaCurtis]

Yes, please don't leave the Hyperdimensional Storage nerfed >.>;

[oslecamo]

We already tried always-1-point nano-machines and mysterious power. That's how their original version was. Everybody maximized them ASAP. That's why they got nerfed. Now they're not an auto-take, but they're still an option.

I was implying that the Super options need some sort of buff or cost decrease to be worth taking--or something like taking the size-linked upgrades and making them stackable but incompatible with arsenal stuff.

Not... leaving the Arsenal untouched and just hacking off access. This is a pretty direct nerf to Super Robots--because your own CF's are inferior to behind-level arsenal access, block said access. Carrot and stick needs some carrot.

Every super robot now gets a free hardpoint just for existing. I believe that's called a buff, not a nerf.

What gets shafted is the hardpoint spam path. And again, super robots aren't supposed to be about spamming hardpoints around here. I included hyperdimensional storage first as more of a curiosity, but if it's become the must-take upgrade, then it rightfully deserves to be nerfed to the ground.

I mean, the simple version is that if accessories were better than access to two upgrades--either the upgrades need a buff, the accessories need a nerf, or the upgrades are overcosted.

If one upgrade is so much better than the others, it's both fairer and easier to nerf said upgrade than trying to buff everything else and end up with a power creep race.

Plus hey, if it's the acessories that are imba, then why is the poor Real Pilot so less popular than the Super Pilot?

[Raineh Daze]

I was implying that the Super options need some sort of buff or cost decrease to be worth taking--or something like taking the size-linked upgrades and making them stackable but incompatible with arsenal stuff.

Not... leaving the Arsenal untouched and just hacking off access. This is a pretty direct nerf to Super Robots--because your own CF's are inferior to behind-level arsenal access, block said access. Carrot and stick needs some carrot.

Every super robot now gets a free hardpoint just for existing. I believe that's called a buff, not a nerf.

What gets shafted is the hardpoint spam path. And again, super robots aren't supposed to be about spamming hardpoints around here. I included hyperdimensional storage first as more of a curiosity, but if it's become the must-take upgrade, then it rightfully deserves to be nerfed to the ground.

It became must-take because, comparatively, mysterious power and nanomachines are terribly costed. Mysterious Power in particular's the worst about it--all it did was let you get Reactor III earlier for a huge premium. Accessories don't need to offer much to be a better option--and since there's other sources of healing than regen and arsenal stuff includes healing anyway, there was no point in taking those two upgrades because they didn't offer anything you couldn't get some other way for less. And if for some reason you didn't want reactor or regen, then hyperdimensional storage was obviously a better use of points because it gave you anything else.

I mean, the simple version is that if accessories were better than access to two upgrades--either the upgrades need a buff, the accessories need a nerf, or the upgrades are overcosted.

If one upgrade is so much better than the others, it's both fairer and easier to nerf said upgrade than trying to buff everything else and end up with a power creep race.

Plus hey, if it's the acessories that are imba, then why is the poor Real Pilot so less popular than the Super Pilot?

I'm going to go with "step one: using arcane magic is tied to super robots" and "less Gundam fans". For practicality's sake I would probably have gone the other way, but I like Super Robots more from an anime perspective. That and my #1 priority was "get big".

[oslecamo]

I was implying that the Super options need some sort of buff or cost decrease to be worth taking--or something like taking the size-linked upgrades and making them stackable but incompatible with arsenal stuff.

Not... leaving the Arsenal untouched and just hacking off access. This is a pretty direct nerf to Super Robots--because your own CF's are inferior to behind-level arsenal access, block said access. Carrot and stick needs some carrot.

Every super robot now gets a free hardpoint just for existing. I believe that's called a buff, not a nerf.

What gets shafted is the hardpoint spam path. And again, super robots aren't supposed to be about spamming hardpoints around here. I included hyperdimensional storage first as more of a curiosity, but if it's become the must-take upgrade, then it rightfully deserves to be nerfed to the ground.

It became must-take because, comparatively, mysterious power and nanomachines are terribly costed. Mysterious Power in particular's the worst about it--all it did was let you get Reactor III earlier for a huge premium. Accessories don't need to offer much to be a better option--and since there's other sources of healing than regen and arsenal stuff includes healing anyway, there was no point in taking those two upgrades because they didn't offer anything you couldn't get some other way for less. And if for some reason you didn't want reactor or regen, then hyperdimensional storage was obviously a better use of points because it gave you anything else.

Getting an ability 13 levels earlier than you could normally (3rd level with upgrades, vs 16th level with delayed super acessory) is worth a good premium, yes.

As for healing, the main advantage of nanomachines is not having strings attached. Spirits cost spirit points (and you only learn 6 of those) and repair kits have limited uses before you need to return to a friendly base. They're better for burst healins and that's intended, while nanomachines is something that's always "on".

So the real problem here is the massive versatility granted by hyper storage, and that's not really something any other super upgrade can hope to keep up with. Thus the only pratical solution is removing the versatility of hyper storage itself, not engage in a power creep race where nanomachines and mysterious power eclipse every other recovery option now and forever.

[Raineh Daze]

It's not worth that much a premium--over two entire levels' worth of upgrades? That's the worst part of them. It's always going to be a pretty overboard investment. And once you get to the point where the same ability is available for a vastly lower cost, you've gone and shot yourself in the foot.

Well, there's your spirits and the finite supply of repair packs... any support in the form of ship captains, other people carrying repair packs, and any other health restoration that comes along, ever. They also tend to heal more than nanomachines do, which seems to tip things in their favour if you actually need the healing right now. Nanomachines are more like a big DR buff, but that's a completely separate issue than "is it worth it as healing"--and even then, actual DR would be better as you don't die if you take fatal damage first.

[SorO_Lost]

They're better for burst healins and that's intended, while nanomachines is something that's always "on".

That was WotC's rational to never handing out Fast Healing or Regeneration, healing 1hp every minute could super dangerously lead people to starting Encounters with full hit points oh my god!

But you hand Fast Healing and Regeneration out like candy under the rational because most people already start out with full HP going into Encounters anyway. Healing in combat sucks and nothing but high bursts can help (see also your packs & spirit rates). So why are you now reneging on that stance?

[oslecamo]

It's not worth that much a premium--over two entire levels' worth of upgrades? That's the worst part of them. It's always going to be a pretty overboard investment. And once you get to the point where the same ability is available for a vastly lower cost, you've gone and shot yourself in the foot.

A ship captain can change a super's upgrades with a feat.

Besides a pure super can only take one acessory now. Why burn it in something you can take with upgrade points?

Well, there's your spirits and the finite supply of repair packs... any support in the form of ship captains, other people carrying repair packs, and any other health restoration that comes along, ever. They also tend to heal more than nanomachines do, which seems to tip things in their favour if you actually need the healing right now.

They heal more because they cost more. The ship captain/minions could be buffing offensive output instead of playing healbot. The super has a single hardpoint so go ahead and burn it on a repair kit. But you have 80 upgrade points and only a fraction of those can be spent on offensive power. Nanomachines isn't supposed to be the ultimate defense, it's supposed to be something that stacks with other defenses while not costing actual spirits or demanding others to babysit you.

Nanomachines are more like a big DR buff, but that's a completely separate issue than "is it worth it as healing"--and even then, actual DR would be better as you don't die if you take fatal damage first.

Again, you can take nanomachines on top of DR.

[ketaro]

How does Enduring Code and Pilot Repair interact with Super Nanoarmors?

[Raineh Daze]

It's not worth that much a premium--over two entire levels' worth of upgrades? That's the worst part of them. It's always going to be a pretty overboard investment. And once you get to the point where the same ability is available for a vastly lower cost, you've gone and shot yourself in the foot.

A ship captain can change a super's upgrades with a feat.

Besides a pure super can only take one acessory now. Why burn it in something you can take with upgrade points?

Well, there's your spirits and the finite supply of repair packs... any support in the form of ship captains, other people carrying repair packs, and any other health restoration that comes along, ever. They also tend to heal more than nanomachines do, which seems to tip things in their favour if you actually need the healing right now.

They heal more because they cost more. The ship captain/minions could be buffing offensive output instead of playing healbot. The super has a single hardpoint so go ahead and burn it on a repair kit. But you have 80 upgrade points and only a fraction of those can be spent on offensive power. Nanomachines isn't supposed to be the ultimate defense, it's supposed to be something that stacks with other defenses while not costing actual spirits or demanding others to babysit you.

Nanomachines are more like a big DR buff, but that's a completely separate issue than "is it worth it as healing"--and even then, actual DR would be better as you don't die if you take fatal damage first.

Again, you can take nanomachines on top of DR.

"Why use it on something you can get with upgrade points"? Because unless you have maxed out everything else you might conceivably want, it's still ridiculously expensive. You're giving it a cost equal to +9 AC, along with all the other effects of 9 upgrade points depending how you go about distributing them. If you can use that one accessory on Reactor, that's a lot more points to distribute elsewhere.

Yes, you can take nanomachines on top of DR, but my point is that unlike DR they only kick in so long as you survive with greater 0 HP in the first place, and if it's a close-run thing, that's a pretty good sign that nanomachines won't be providing enough healing anyway. Unless you're already taking scratch damage, it's overcosted.

So unless you spend a lot of points (and energy) sunk into that barrier, nanomachines are the most unreliable healing in combat. But the barrier's level gated, shares the same escalating costs, and takes a huge chunk of energy. Which reminds me... the Arsenal IV option: half damage for 5 energy? Again, big premium--and you can get higher reduction, it's true--and four times the cost to use.

[SorO_Lost]

Besides a pure super can only take one acessory now. Why burn it in something you can take with upgrade points?

Because Osl has demanded that you do.

Like take you other recent bs nerf, how senses work in space. Super Robots get Blindsense, this does nothing to negate Concealment while Real Robots get Blindsight which flat out negates Concealment bonuses. Likewise say you have a 500ft radar, a 20th level Super Robot that's maxed out Undetectable gets spotted 170mu out while a 1st level Real Robot with Yksvoknym Particles Generator can't be spotted until he's 83mu away.

Weapons are crap too. a Super get 4 points, it's not even enough to buy most weapons so they get stuck with two shitty 1d10 punches that you can quote on quote upgrade by spending multiple upgrade points per single property with a only a couple d6s by level 20 if you're willing to take Size penalties to attack rolls and AC so you miss more and die faster. So the have to take Hyperdimensional Storage which means you also have give up both energy & hp regeneration. But a Real? They can take better weapons and Energy regeneration and still pick up methods to replenish HP at the same time.

Except they don't actually need to, screw RD's example. At level 14 a Real Robot can nab a Linked Remote Slashers for two 20d6 guns (that come with four free properties) and the Mirror-Image Projector. The projector reduces damage by 50% (by 1/2 of attacks missing you) but it doesn't cost any energy to use and no Super Robot can overcome it without dedicating it's one and only Hardpoint to countering one method of defense.

And so and so on.
So I expect to see a lot of Arsenal/Accessory nerfs over this week.

[oslecamo]

How does Enduring Code and Pilot Repair interact with Super Nanoarmors?

Eeerr, they work normally? Enduring Code would mean that when your super nanoarmor reaches 0/negative HP you can either remain motionless while it quickly repair or take it off for acting and then putting back on when you're done for it to quickly repair itself. Pilot Repair, well, grants regeneration to the pilot, and if you're killed while outside, putting it on would patch you up. You may want to combine it with sentient in that case since it's kinda harder for other people to make you don your super nanoarmor than is placing them inside the super's cockpit.

"Why use it on something you can get with upgrade points"? Because unless you have maxed out everything else you might conceivably want, it's still ridiculously expensive. You're giving it a cost equal to +9 AC, along with all the other effects of 9 upgrade points depending how you go about distributing them. If you can use that one accessory on Reactor, that's a lot more points to distribute elsewhere.

Ah, but you can't just buy +9 AC right away. At least not until you're 16th level. Or 8th level if you split between Agility and Plating.

Yes, you can take nanomachines on top of DR, but my point is that unlike DR they only kick in so long as you survive with greater 0 HP in the first place, and if it's a close-run thing, that's a pretty good sign that nanomachines won't be providing enough healing anyway. Unless you're already taking scratch damage, it's overcosted.

And exactly how many attacks out there straight out ignore DR? Nanomachines at least work against anything that deals damage.

You may want to check the new upgrades too.

So unless you spend a lot of points (and energy) sunk into that barrier, nanomachines are the most unreliable healing in combat. But the barrier's level gated, shares the same escalating costs, and takes a huge chunk of energy. Which reminds me... the Arsenal IV option: half damage for 5 energy? Again, big premium--and you can get higher reduction, it's true--and four times the cost to use.

Absolute barrier also gives you immunity to an element/property and ignoring certain force effects and ignoring other barriers in melee.

[SorO_Lost]

Absolute barrier also gives you immunity to an element/property and ignoring certain force effects and ignoring other barriers in melee.

Not really, it costs 8 points to ignore another Super that only invested four points into it and it only functions against a Real Pilot 6th level or lower. To fully ignore all walls in melee a Super needs to spend 16 Upgrade points into Absolute Barrier and have 20 energy so it's not like Defensive Weapons or other Immediate-Action attacks can benefit from it.

But on the other hand, a 1st level Real Pilot can pick up Close Canceller which ignores all walls of every level instantly irregardless of current energy levels.

[Raineh Daze]

Hm. I'll have to think about that, but two questions: when Enduring Code and Pilot Repair are combined, does the pilot die on their negative HP or the Mecha's negative HP? I'm not sure how likely that is, but...

Number two: why does the Great One upgrade that gives you a damage bonus make you so slow? Seriously, starting with a 30MU base speed and taking maximum agility, you need to be at least level 10 to once again move at 30 MU. This isn't really offset in any way so as to not be horrifically inconvenient, since short of being a multiclass real pilot you don't really have much in the way of ranged attacks to benefit it and literally every other mecha has a faster movement speed.

Though Enhanced Code seems to wrap around to "only technically useful", in that you're most likely a sitting duck at negative HP who can't take actions even if those actions have nothing to do with actually piloting said mecha.

[oslecamo]

Hm. I'll have to think about that, but two questions: when Enduring Code and Pilot Repair are combined, does the pilot die on their negative HP or the Mecha's negative HP? I'm not sure how likely that is, but...

Mecha's negative HP.

Number two: why does the Great One upgrade that gives you a damage bonus make you so slow? Seriously, starting with a 30MU base speed and taking maximum agility, you need to be at least level 10 to once again move at 30 MU. This isn't really offset in any way so as to not be horrifically inconvenient, since short of being a multiclass real pilot you don't really have much in the way of ranged attacks to benefit it and literally every other mecha has a faster movement speed.

Well it's precisely meant to represent those big slow lumbering robots that hit really hard.

Though Enhanced Code seems to wrap around to "only technically useful", in that you're most likely a sitting duck at negative HP who can't take actions even if those actions have nothing to do with actually piloting said mecha.

Yeah, having your cockpit half-crushed around you with sparks flying off all over will make it hard to concentrate on anything else unless you exit.

[Raineh Daze]

Number two: why does the Great One upgrade that gives you a damage bonus make you so slow? Seriously, starting with a 30MU base speed and taking maximum agility, you need to be at least level 10 to once again move at 30 MU. This isn't really offset in any way so as to not be horrifically inconvenient, since short of being a multiclass real pilot you don't really have much in the way of ranged attacks to benefit it and literally every other mecha has a faster movement speed.

Well it's precisely meant to represent those big slow lumbering robots that hit really hard.

See, that seems odd, since Super Robots seem to generally come in three main flavours: sheer overkill, durable as hell but not fast, or fast and hitting really hard but not so durable--Mazinger and Getter Robo exemplify the second two, respectively.

And that still doesn't help with making you the slowest thing in the system bar none. Damage bonuses don't seem useful if you're the worst placed to ever use them.

Though Enhanced Code seems to wrap around to "only technically useful", in that you're most likely a sitting duck at negative HP who can't take actions even if those actions have nothing to do with actually piloting said mecha.

Yeah, having your cockpit half-crushed around you with sparks flying off all over will make it hard to concentrate on anything else unless you exit.

... then what's the point? You're a sitting duck unless you only took just enough damage to heal out of it. Any lower and you're completely wasting your turn even more than being destroyed would be--with maybe the bonus that you forestall destruction should the fight end before you're attacked again. Since you can't use any defensive abilities and you're left flat-footed at the same time, that's not going to happen.

[oslecamo]

Number two: why does the Great One upgrade that gives you a damage bonus make you so slow? Seriously, starting with a 30MU base speed and taking maximum agility, you need to be at least level 10 to once again move at 30 MU. This isn't really offset in any way so as to not be horrifically inconvenient, since short of being a multiclass real pilot you don't really have much in the way of ranged attacks to benefit it and literally every other mecha has a faster movement speed.

Well it's precisely meant to represent those big slow lumbering robots that hit really hard.

See, that seems odd, since Super Robots seem to generally come in three main flavours: sheer overkill, durable as hell but not fast, or fast and hitting really hard but not so durable--Mazinger and Getter Robo exemplify the second two, respectively.

And that still doesn't help with making you the slowest thing in the system bar none. Damage bonuses don't seem useful if you're the worst placed to ever use them.

Something like Big O, extremely slow and extremely hard hitting.

I could tie movement penalty to durability, but then you become a glorified terrain feature as they can just run circles around you while ignoring you outright, whereas high damage output means you can reasonably threaten an area. Just make sure important allied things are inside said threatened area.

... then what's the point? You're a sitting duck unless you only took just enough damage to heal out of it. Any lower and you're completely wasting your turn even more than being destroyed would be--with maybe the bonus that you forestall destruction should the fight end before you're attacked again. Since you can't use any defensive abilities and you're left flat-footed at the same time, that's not going to happen.

A virtual 30% increase of your max HP isn't shabby at all if you ask me. And sitting one round of combat is pretty decent for a virtual 60% increase of max HP. Worst case scenario you're still forcing your enemy to waste more actions finishing your super robot off in which case you're fulfilling your tanking role pretty well.

And whatever happened to your army of repair bots all of a sudden? I would say they would be pretty happy for being able to patch your super robot from negative HP.

[Raineh Daze]

Number two: why does the Great One upgrade that gives you a damage bonus make you so slow? Seriously, starting with a 30MU base speed and taking maximum agility, you need to be at least level 10 to once again move at 30 MU. This isn't really offset in any way so as to not be horrifically inconvenient, since short of being a multiclass real pilot you don't really have much in the way of ranged attacks to benefit it and literally every other mecha has a faster movement speed.

Well it's precisely meant to represent those big slow lumbering robots that hit really hard.

See, that seems odd, since Super Robots seem to generally come in three main flavours: sheer overkill, durable as hell but not fast, or fast and hitting really hard but not so durable--Mazinger and Getter Robo exemplify the second two, respectively.

And that still doesn't help with making you the slowest thing in the system bar none. Damage bonuses don't seem useful if you're the worst placed to ever use them.

Something like Big O, extremely slow and extremely hard hitting.

I could tie movement penalty to durability, but then you become a glorified terrain feature as they can just run circles around you while ignoring you outright, whereas high damage output means you can reasonably threaten an area. Just make sure important allied things are inside said threatened area.

You have to take every level of agility to be able to put this to any use. Stop and think about that for a second. You're intending this to be strong and slow... and to use it at all you have to take every single speed-boosting level you can, which gives you dodge bonuses to AC to boot. And then you're still slower than everyone else and, if anybody can stay away, completely unable to project any sort of threat because you're so slow and bereft of range options.

... then what's the point? You're a sitting duck unless you only took just enough damage to heal out of it. Any lower and you're completely wasting your turn even more than being destroyed would be--with maybe the bonus that you forestall destruction should the fight end before you're attacked again. Since you can't use any defensive abilities and you're left flat-footed at the same time, that's not going to happen.

A virtual 30% increase of your max HP isn't shabby at all if you ask me. And sitting one round of combat is pretty decent for a virtual 60% increase of max HP. Worst case scenario you're still forcing your enemy to waste more actions finishing your super robot off in which case you're fulfilling your tanking role pretty well.

And whatever happened to your army of repair bots all of a sudden? I would say they would be pretty happy for being able to patch your super robot from negative HP.

Well, 50% of them just got eliminated by rendering you unable to use spirits or take any action other than ejecting. Strictly speaking: yes, this is an upgrade over what came previously, but it's still worse than Die Hard. Hell, it's worth than vanilla "I am dying" as you can't take any action at all.

Serious question: why haven't you genericised both super and real robots so they have the same underlying chassis but a different allotment of arsenal stuff, and a selection of premade robots? It seems like it would be far easier to balance to just have mecha as one homogenous system than this bizarre split that just causes difficulty.

[Anomander]

Nanomachines/Mysterious Power seem to cost what they're worth to me. Reducing hardpoints for the Supers aren't limiting them all that much. Plus free hardpoint you don't even need to pay upgrades for. Supers already get plenty of upgrades that offer the equivalent of a hardpoint, such as extra spirits, flight, reactor and so on. Ideally, yes, you use the upgrades for those and keep the hardpoint for an advantage you cannot get otherwise. Or to save on some upgrade points at least until you get more upgrade points to spend on those.

Hard hitters being slow makes about as much sense as slow tanks. Bigass motherships/deathstar creeping in and shooting the doom laser.
Something that may make sense is for the big ones and similar single pick options (maybe not all of them, though) would be to have them get a toggle.
In the case of the slower damage-dealer, he could go around at normal speed until he activates the higher damage. The action to toggle could be significant enough to discourage using it freely, so a mecha could ride around normally until there is a fight and then switch to damage... but if the targets move around he has a hard time positioning himself strategically. Not being to toggle for a while could make more sense for those options that cannot really be reversed from so easily anyway, such as suddenly losing half your spirit points/hit points/energy. Still, just an idea.

... then what's the point? You're a sitting duck unless you only took just enough damage to heal out of it.

Aye, the first thought when seeing that upgrade was then, indeed, it actually gets you back into the fight if you heal enough to recover, kind of like DR allows you to survive the way healings normally don't. By itself it is already pretty nice. And even if your mecha cannot be back into the action for a few turns, it does indeed forces the attacker to pay attention to your mecha instead of other stuff, potentially wasting actions that are sorely needed to get rid of those that can still kick its ass. And even then he cannot fully ignore in case you get back in the fight. Strategically it is pretty useful.
If you leave the mecha, that's another target he may have to worry about, and even if the mecha doesn't get back up in time to continue the fight before it ends, you at least get to keep the same mecha for the next encounters. Better than the lower level replacement.

[Raineh Daze]

... then what's the point? You're a sitting duck unless you only took just enough damage to heal out of it.

Aye, the first thought when seeing that upgrade was then, indeed, it actually gets you back into the fight if you heal enough to recover, kind of like DR allows you to survive the way healings normally don't. By itself it is already pretty nice. And even if your mecha cannot be back into the action for a few turns, it does indeed forces the attacker to pay attention to your mecha instead of other stuff, potentially wasting actions that are sorely needed to get rid of those that can still kick its ass. And even then he cannot fully ignore in case you get back in the fight. Strategically it is pretty useful.
If you leave the mecha, that's another target he may have to worry about, and even if the mecha doesn't get back up in time to continue the fight before it ends, you at least get to keep the same mecha for the next encounters. Better than the lower level replacement.

Have you been looking at the mecha damage recently? The first option isn't a concern and the second is hopeful.

And banking on synergy with sentient affecting enemy behaviour is a pretty optimistic 8-point minimum expenditure.

[CKirk]

Plus hey, if it's the acessories that are imba, then why is the poor Real Pilot so less popular than the Super Pilot?

Maybe in your campaign, but in the one I'm doing, we've got two 'reals' (one moon vanguard with mostly real levels and one engineer), a super, and a ship captain, with not a session going by without someone commenting how absurdly powerful reals are (I've already posted the numbers on how reals at top level are more durable and more damaging than supers and been dismissed, so I won't do so again).