General Discussion and Suggestions

[Raineh Daze]

...Getter? Take its time? Getter, whose main pilot is Ryoma whose approach is "charge at a city full of oni and blow his way through it"? Gunbuster and Diebuster also aren't ones for slow drawn-out fighting. It really depends what you're going at--Mazinger is famous for its defence. The Getter? Attack attack attack. Hell, New Getter Robo and Armageddon are pretty agreed on those points--the bigger issue is having enemies that won't die. Evangelion's also not exactly the 'slowest buildup' thing in the world, either. Nor was what I watched of Gao Gai Gar. Seriously, if anything, here, it's just the usual pad-out-episodes approach, not a genre thing.

That's the thing that Amaterasu is templated on. Besides, her abilities make the slow build-up approach comparatively minor. It's why I didn't take Attacker, and Defender, uh... I need to survive to use that one.

Also, a slow build-up isn't going to help when the issue is taking a huge amount of damage pretty quickly. <_>

[Fzzr]

Monster classes and magic items. She's a Colossal-sized living fusion reactor. xD

The dying thing? The damage keeps being so huge DR is meaningless, so it's been all defense-skills and spirits to survive. I took Guts predicated on surviving a hit, so...

I hear you on the huge damage. I've been focusing on ways to Not Get Hit for those first few turns (despite having laughable AC). Vambraces of Defense have been great for me when the inevitable inconvenient crit comes along. (The time I got shot down there were two inconvenient crits back to back with no BB turn in between for heals.) DR helps survive long enough to get healed by the BB when things get serious. Prevail also helps out in a pinch.

Fzzr gets it, and it's how I've been using super NPCs against the party. Build up power until reaching critical mass.

Well good to know I'm on the right track. Plan going forward is to take more defensive options (like Alien Alloy to help deal with those freakin' crits) and rearrange some old maneuvers to get more offensive options. The buff to Captain Leadership is going to be a big help.

As for slow-build-up supers vs charge-in-and-attack ones, consider Gurren Lagann (my personal favorite).

1. Charge in like an idiot and blow up some mooks.
2. Get beat up by a real bad guy due to charging in like an idiot.
3. Make a speech or do something cool (or both).
4. Win.

Still involves charging in and trying not to die (with moderate success) but also works on slow buildup. That's more or less how I play Super, though step 3 is sometimes "Evil Super Robot does something unnecessarily brutal".

[Raineh Daze]

Either way, I think it's pretty clear step one for a Super Robot is "charge in gloriously". It's just the "don't die" part that's hard--with rending weapons common (and our level in Phantasy Star), the issue is that a single hit does heavy damage even with DR (let alone crits). But "I Am Invincible!" and (hopefully) the Invincible spirit part should help somewhat without playing "nab all the Real spirits again".

Plus Attacker/Defender rely on fighting the same foe for a while. Sometimes hard.

[Fzzr]

Either way, I think it's pretty clear step one for a Super Robot is "charge in gloriously". It's just the "don't die" part that's hard--with rending weapons common (and our level in Phantasy Star), the issue is that a single hit does heavy damage even with DR (let alone crits). But "I Am Invincible!" and (hopefully) the Invincible spirit part should help somewhat without playing "nab all the Real spirits again".

Plus Attacker/Defender rely on fighting the same foe for a while. Sometimes hard.

Yeah. Being a Super ain't easy, but at least it's fun.

[Anomander]

Thing is, they don't really know how long it's gonna take until it's finished. That's why the durations are random in the first place, smallest time is the ideal case scenario where everything goes smoothly, but complications can happen until the last second. So minimum they're all stuck on the task until the fastest one ends and points it out to the others. I could make it rolling after each period of time and this would also lead to theoretically infinite maximum time, but that would be a lot more clunky rolling wise.

Good idea! Makes the most sense as well.
Under the understanding that they do not know the result of the roll (or at least trust the players to not abuse that they roll the time it takes when starting the process and so actually know how long each of them will take). Unless it is rolled secretly by the DM as is the case for some skill checks.

[Raineh Daze]

Looking at the changelog I never knew existed:

Reduced Alteisen Riese hardpoints to 3. Maybe somebody now will use it... Hahaha of course not!

Of course not, we're not level 19. That would be a tad difficult.

[YuweaCurtis]

I dunno man, I still feel stealth is more proper to Real.

Also, I'm starting to be bugged. If people are saying Real is better and there's numbers to back it, why be so stubborn? Do you want Real to be played that badly?
Why not at least try to make the suggested changes to Super Robots? You could always change it back later. And its. not like a lot was asked for, just cheaper nanites which probably won't fix the gap anyways.

[oslecamo]

...Getter? Take its time? Getter, whose main pilot is Ryoma whose approach is "charge at a city full of oni and blow his way through it"? Gunbuster and Diebuster also aren't ones for slow drawn-out fighting. It really depends what you're going at--Mazinger is famous for its defence. The Getter? Attack attack attack. Hell, New Getter Robo and Armageddon are pretty agreed on those points--the bigger issue is having enemies that won't die. Evangelion's also not exactly the 'slowest buildup' thing in the world, either. Nor was what I watched of Gao Gai Gar. Seriously, if anything, here, it's just the usual pad-out-episodes approach, not a genre thing.

Mook cleaning is mook cleaning, but when Getter faces a proper enemy, suddenly it's splitting up to dodge attacks while cycling through its 3 forms. Getter Robo doesn't enter slug-out matches hoping it can outlast its opponents, it hit-and-runs like a boss.

I dunno man, I still feel stealth is more proper to Real.

Also, I'm starting to be bugged. If people are saying Real is better and there's numbers to back it, why be so stubborn? Do you want Real to be played that badly?
Why not at least try to make the suggested changes to Super Robots? You could always change it back later. And its. not like a lot was asked for, just cheaper nanites which probably won't fix the gap anyways.

Because all I've seen are theoretical numbers, yet in actual campaign gameplay here the last boss they fought and seemingly left quite the lasting impression on the party was a pure super gestalt. Ketaro plays the closest thing to a pure real, and he lost on a 1x1 against a  super earlier (althought it was close).

More in particular we already tried cheap nanomachines when this started and the result was a) every single super taking them and b) the most unkillable build that I've seen so far since starting this project.

[Raineh Daze]

So effectively, Getter has great dodge AC?

It's extremely aggressive. Not a careful build-up-over-time thing. Hell, they're pretty damn eager to use special attacks.

Anyway, I'm working on something right now. This has revealed two independent things so far: one, why the fuck would anyone want to use the Wildschwein? I'm baffled by its existence. #2: shouldn't the 7th-level shield accessory be giving 35HP, not 30?

[Raineh Daze]

Okay, here we are. It's a spreadsheet comparing the numbers for Super Robots and Real Robots, sans things like Great One (because that has so many size consequences and conditions involving division etc. that it'll take a while to sort it all out), but that seems to lean heavily towards being a trap defensively (Great Plate: +4 Nat AC, half dodge AC works out to a net -2 AC over the course of a build, plus Colossal has a -8 AC penalty in and of itself to get the most HP)

The general trend seems to be: there's not really room to customise the base Super. You take Plating and Agility else you fall behind, that's it. Same with targetting--unless you've got the Dex/Str to compensate, you're going to fall behind the same-tier Reals without taking both of them. After Real II, it tends towards the base Real mecha containing at least one thing with equivalent defences and AC before you start digging in the arsenal stuff, and the high-tier arsenal upgrades totally throw that one out--+7 Shield AC is pretty much equivalent to the Super getting an extra 6 pilot levels of upgrades for one. If you both take one of the same upgrade, then the Reals are still winning there.

Real Robots flat out win the weapon war, no contest there. Supers can stack damage, that's pretty much it, and don't have the same monstrous base damage dice to pull on. It only gets more out of whack later on--the number of options there before arsenal weaponry is... silly.

The Alteisen Reise is completely out of scale with literally everything else.

So... as it more or less works out, Super Robots don't have much choice on customising statblocks, because it's hemmed in to such a specific area that you fall behind if you don't invest everything. If you actually want to customise in that sense--more tanking vs more dodging etc.--without actively making yourself worse, you're better off picking Reals because there's actually room for some variety there--HP and DR aren't intrinsically pinned to having the requisite AC.

That, and any variety in battle tactics pretty much requires it because every Super Robot attack consists of "run in and hit it in melee". Appropriate, but not room for much variety.

EDIT: Fixed the Vahlhawk line as that was edited after I'd done that tier. <_>

[ketaro]

Ketaro plays the closest thing to a pure real, and he lost on a 1x1 against a  super earlier (althought it was close).

I haven't had the opportunity to use my Real Robot since the very first fight. It did quite well.

That 1v1 was Super Nano vs. Super Nano.

[Anomander]

I haven't had the opportunity to use my Real Robot since the very first fight. It did quite well.

It should be quite fantastic now, if the principle behind the build works as well as it felt it would in theory. 

[SorO_Lost]

There's something contradictory in there. Druids are divine casters, yet the Divine Pilot seems to be even more unpopular than the Real Pilot, as in people here don't even seem to pretend they exist. Considering all the self buffs in the cleric list, it honestly surprises me.

The forums them selves don't seem to like Clerics. Plus Divine Pilot doesn't get Domains, or Turn Undead, is pretty much limited to 32 Spells instead of a couple thousand, doesn't qualify for Cleric-related Feats, and you KOed every deity every in your campaigns because you don't like D&D.

I think it also comes back to many of the buffs are a waste of time, like normally Bite of the Wearbear is amazing with it's +16 Strength. But +8 damage isn't much compared to Arsenal options, like Twin Field Lances (12d12*2). Even with the quadruple gain (heavy's x2, plus two attacks), and starting with a low 20 Str for a larger impact, the +18% gain in damage requires six rounds of full-attacks for the gain to make up losing a round fighting to buffing. D&D's buffs simply have less meaning unless they are binary changers. And you regularly ignore those too.

But bigger point being several people like power, and if barely anybody's picking the supposed power option, then it simply can't be that powerful.

So then it's agreed? Real Arcanist should be a thing, clearly Real Pilot needs buffs.

I haven't had the opportunity to use my Real Robot since the very first fight. It did quite well.

It should be quite fantastic now, if the principle behind the build works as well as it felt it would in theory. 

Yeah, I think we should try putting SorO's idea in game and see if it holds up. He'd be willing to restat his sheet up too if he ever gets a day off. It'd be like Fate's Beserker, given the Spell buffs and how the Upgrades for dipping Arcane Pilot apply to Real mechs, any mecha he pilots (and steals) becomes a Noble Mechasim and it really fits the theme of the dragon pilot is the superior part in the assembly.

[Anomander]

I was referring to ketaro's build for katherine, not real robots as a whole. ...Though now that I think about it, the powerful part is mostly handled by Kath's "super pilot" side. Soooooo nevermind.

[Raineh Daze]

Hm, I have a proposal, based on the data--and the fact that, the roughly once-a-tier Real that just has more defences in general aside, there's a general parity between the raw AC of Super and Reals--and the kind of glaring flaw that the customisable robot isn't that customisable... don't treat Plating and Agility as distinct upgrades for cost purposes. Rather, have it so you can take any combination of either that would equal the total of two separate upgrades.

It would probably need some adjustment to the two AC-focused Great One upgrades, but otherwise it would allow for some variability in Super stats without blatantly declaring that you enjoy having abnormally low AC.

That, and you could actually build a tank Super that does not, in fact, top out at HP comparable to the most fragile Real VII mecha unless it decides it wants a bunch of size and touch penalties.

[Fzzr]

Hm, I have a proposal, based on the data--and the fact that, the roughly once-a-tier Real that just has more defences in general aside, there's a general parity between the raw AC of Super and Reals--and the kind of glaring flaw that the customisable robot isn't that customisable... don't treat Plating and Agility as distinct upgrades for cost purposes. Rather, have it so you can take any combination of either that would equal the total of two separate upgrades.

It would probably need some adjustment to the two AC-focused Great One upgrades, but otherwise it would allow for some variability in Super stats without blatantly declaring that you enjoy having abnormally low AC.

That, and you could actually build a tank Super that does not, in fact, top out at HP comparable to the most fragile Real VII mecha unless it decides it wants a bunch of size and touch penalties.

I don't understand what you're proposing there. How would that look if you compared something like a level 6 Real Pilot in a Scutzwald to a Level 6 Super Robot?

[Raineh Daze]

Hm, I have a proposal, based on the data--and the fact that, the roughly once-a-tier Real that just has more defences in general aside, there's a general parity between the raw AC of Super and Reals--and the kind of glaring flaw that the customisable robot isn't that customisable... don't treat Plating and Agility as distinct upgrades for cost purposes. Rather, have it so you can take any combination of either that would equal the total of two separate upgrades.

It would probably need some adjustment to the two AC-focused Great One upgrades, but otherwise it would allow for some variability in Super stats without blatantly declaring that you enjoy having abnormally low AC.

That, and you could actually build a tank Super that does not, in fact, top out at HP comparable to the most fragile Real VII mecha unless it decides it wants a bunch of size and touch penalties.

I don't understand what you're proposing there. How would that look if you compared something like a level 6 Real Pilot in a Scutzwald to a Level 6 Super Robot?

Okay, currently a level 5 Super can have a +8 AC bonus. A level 6 can have +10 (level 7 Real also has +10--essentially, there's a flip-flop every other level between who has better total AC). Real II Mecha, without accessories, all have +8AC. All four of them. Despite not having the same Natural AC or Dodge AC bonuses.

The difference is that to have that AC, a Super has to invest in a particular path--3 Plating, 3 Agility at level 5, 4 Plating 4 Agility at level 6. You can't have 8 plating 0 agility or any other variant--every Super Robot, to have the same base AC bonus Reals are predicting, has to max Plating and Agility--which means every Super is going to end up with the same AC, DR, HP, movement speed...

What my proposal changes is that you could take Plating or Agility so long as the sum of both is no more than the current total of both upgrades.

[ketaro]

I was referring to ketaro's build for katherine, not real robots as a whole. ...Though now that I think about it, the powerful part is mostly handled by Kath's "super pilot" side. Soooooo nevermind.

I know I'm a disgusting hybrid anomaly 

[Fzzr]

Hm, I have a proposal, based on the data--and the fact that, the roughly once-a-tier Real that just has more defences in general aside, there's a general parity between the raw AC of Super and Reals--and the kind of glaring flaw that the customisable robot isn't that customisable... don't treat Plating and Agility as distinct upgrades for cost purposes. Rather, have it so you can take any combination of either that would equal the total of two separate upgrades.

It would probably need some adjustment to the two AC-focused Great One upgrades, but otherwise it would allow for some variability in Super stats without blatantly declaring that you enjoy having abnormally low AC.

That, and you could actually build a tank Super that does not, in fact, top out at HP comparable to the most fragile Real VII mecha unless it decides it wants a bunch of size and touch penalties.

I don't understand what you're proposing there. How would that look if you compared something like a level 6 Real Pilot in a Scutzwald to a Level 6 Super Robot?

Okay, currently a level 5 Super can have a +8 AC bonus. A level 6 can have +10 (level 7 Real also has +10--essentially, there's a flip-flop every other level between who has better total AC). Real II Mecha, without accessories, all have +8AC. All four of them. Despite not having the same Natural AC or Dodge AC bonuses.

The difference is that to have that AC, a Super has to invest in a particular path--3 Plating, 3 Agility at level 5, 4 Plating 4 Agility at level 6. You can't have 8 plating 0 agility or any other variant--every Super Robot, to have the same base AC bonus Reals are predicting, has to max Plating and Agility--which means every Super is going to end up with the same AC, DR, HP, movement speed...

What my proposal changes is that you could take Plating or Agility so long as the sum of both is no more than the current total of both upgrades.

So you're saying instead of the current "You cannot pick each option more times than your 1+(1/2 pilot level)" there should be a special rule for Plating and Agility that says "You may choose any combination of Plating and Agility as long as the total is not more than 2 + pilot level." This would be the same number of points allocatable between them, but it means a Super could match a Real's AC while also having the choice to go all in on speed or DR, rather than being forced to split between the two.

Did I restate that correctly?

[Fzzr]

Oh, and I forgot to mention: One thing that's clear from that data, regardless of all other opinions about Real/Super balance, is the the Alteisen Reise is still OP compared to other reals of tier 7.