General Discussion and Suggestions

[Anomander]

Your version misses an application per attack, as per the ranged version.

I don't understand. Please explain further. Suggested text is fine.

I meant that your version required a fullround action to use. There is no option per attack, as ranged weapons do. If one is to be limited to a single attack anyway, might as well go Heavy weapon despite movement limitation.

No, this was a different movement with each attack, only one of the attacks hit more than one target.

I already had understood that there had been one movement per attack. I implied that if your use of Area with melee weapons had been so good, it would have had to manage multiple target hits just about every attack. Otherwise it can be compared to simple ranged attacks, trading the attack penalty for having to find angles to hit multiple people and spending energy to move if any of them are airborne.


As for the new version, it suffers compared to the ranged version only in that only the first attack has the actual Area effect. One way to have all the attacks get the Area advantage without the multiple movements you dread, while still keeping close to what ranged Area weapons get, would be to have all the attacks of a multiple hits ability/fullattack affect only the targets within the straight line of the first movement.
For example, a fullattack would work as normal, except all hits would be done to the valid targets of the initial movement. The first hit targeting them all, then the second at -5 to hit targeting them all as well, and so on.
If someone makes a single attack as a standard, he could still move before or after.

[oslecamo]

Thanks for all the answers! Regarding the new generic reals, may I suggest an alternate name?

Knight Neutralizing Impulse Geas Hadronic Terror

I think it improves on the acronym

Regarding Small Reals, how about Arm Slaves? In the anime at least I think they're somewhere between Gundam and Knightmare Frame size.

Done both.

Neat!

Question on crafting; what reason would there be for crafting arsenal/hardpoint stuff?
Considering a mecha gets them automatically when selecting its arsenal gear and that they can only equip specific levels of arsenal equipment anyway.

Unless the crafter is not a pilot and doesn't have access to automatic arsenal refills, which may indeed be the case in a non-gestalt game where one side has to be full of pilot levels. Or where pilot levels are optional. Or doesn't have access to a friendly PC/NPC that can install arsenal options for free.

Reasons to use the craft skill to build mechas:
-You have no pilot class.
-Your want extra mechas besides the ones your class and friends can get you.
-You're a super and want better arsenal.

Also, just to be sure, when it says that a support staff can use an ability on a mecha within melee reach, does that include his own mecha? Such as to, say, use Fix It to repair his own busted volatile weapon.

Yes.

I've been thinking about it for a long time but I'd also like to mention, before I use it, that maneuvers with huge base damage such as Flash Thousand would more or less obliterate any non-mecha target. Because mechas deal maximum base damage to non-mecha targets.

Hmmm, I think the maximized bit against non-mecha is a bit too much, removed.

Reverse Tap (Gun Maniac): Since the melee attack gets all the properties of the twin-linked weapons, what would happen if they have the Area property? Is the melee attack against all adjacent targets done to every target passed by in a straight line up to twice the initiator's base speed? And are the targets within the first ranged increment of the twin-linked weapons those within that range before/after/throughout that movement?

Yes, only targets you passed through, follow the order of actions to find out.

I’ve also been thinking about Area Melee. I’ve been making extensive (ab)use of this feature, and I think it’s still too powerful. It currently acts as a Charge you can use as a standard action, which also attacks everything on the way at full BaB and damage, and which doesn’t require you to end the action in melee range of an opponent. To give an example of something from a recent session, a full attack with an Area Melee weapon (including Zero Reach and Haste) let me move over 300mu in a single turn, getting four kills despite starting over 100mu away from the first target. I still like the idea of movement that attacks enemies in the way, but I think it needs to be toned down somewhat.

The current description of melee weapons with Area is as follows:

If this appears in a melee weapon, you can move in a straight line up to twice your base speed, ignoring any opponents in your way for purposes of movement, without causing attacks of opportunity. Any buffs to speed increase the range after the base speed is multiplied. Roll to hit against all opponents you passed through. If your movement would cost EN or other resources, you must pay for it as normal. If an opponent is bigger than you, you need to pass through the middle of their position to affect them with this.

This is my suggested text:

If a melee weapon has the Area feature, as a fullround action, you can move in a straight line up to twice your base speed toward an enemy. If the weapon is a Heavy weapon, move only up to your base speed. Ignore any opponents in your way for purposes of movement, and this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Any buffs to speed increase the range after the base speed is multiplied. Your movement must end adjacent to the final target of your attack without passing through them.

Roll to hit with that weapon against all opponents you passed through, plus the target at the end. If you pass through an opponent bigger than you with this movement, the line needs to pass through the middle of their position for you hit them with this attack. You deal 50% damage to all enemies you hit with this attack, except the final target who takes full damage. You may not make any other movements in a round in which you use a melee weapon in Area mode, including a 5mu step. Movement made as part of an Area Melee attack costs an additional 1 energy per 5mu moved on top of any other normal cost.

Any ability that allows you to make more than one attack in a round with a melee weapon may not be used with Area mode, even if the ability also requires a fullround action.

(I added that last line based on Anomander's question, since it's a potential source of abuse.)

With or without the above change, I suggest Area be broken away from Versatile in Super Robot upgrades and turned into its own upgrade, costing two points. The other effects in Versatile do some non-damage effect to the enemy. Area lets you do (potentially) more damage with an attack, making it more similar to Progressive Edge, which adds Rending for two points.

I believe a more simple solution is reducing how much you can move per attack. Changed it to half movement speed, or normal movement speed with Zero reach.

[Fzzr]

Great! Unrelated minor question:

Disarming reads:

Disarming: If you deal damage with this weapon, you can attempt a Disarm as a free action on the target without provoking attacks of opportunity nor needing to make a new attack roll, even if at range. However you cannot try to pick up the weapon of your enemy if you succeed and have a free hand. A Heavy weapon grants a +6 bonus on the Disarm roll.

Since the Disarm attempt provided by Disarming does not require a new attack roll, does that mean Strike guarantees a successful disarm?

[Anomander]

Sound changes.

-You're a super and want better arsenal.

Oh? I'd have though that the limit of the mecha itself would have prevented access to something beyond its max arsenal level. As in, sure, you can build it but that doesn't mean your mecha can actually equip it. Though perhaps that limit was only meant for arsenal options acquired off the class ability.
Getting up to rank VII accessories/weapons early for your super robot is an excellent deal. Not all that expensive either even though it takes a hardpoint/arsenal to equip.
Ah, it mentions building/costs for arsenal accessories but there isn't a craft skill for those.

Since the Disarm attempt provided by Disarming does not require a new attack roll, does that mean Strike guarantees a successful disarm?

I may be wrong but normally that would not be so. Since Strike only makes it so that you auto hit. Disarming is not about hitting or not hitting but winning an opposed  check. So you hit the target, and the disarm attempt is done but not necessarily won.

[Fzzr]

I've already given up on Arsenal as a Super because the lack of Ammo Melee makes X-linking and full attacks with Arsenal Melee weapons unsustainable, significantly reducing options. There are a few Brutal Ammo Ranged but they tend to be Heavy or extremely inferior to Super Builtin options. Overall I'm doubling down on maneuvers crossed over with Zero Weapon, Special Attack, Favored Maneuver, and Attacker/Predict. I keep a low-arsenal-space Defensive weapon on hand to maintain Attacker/Predict with multiple enemies as I go. Strike for early on when the buffs aren't stacked so it's hard to hit reals, Yell to get buffs early. Love or Battle Cry for important attacks. We'll see over the next level or so how that keeps up with the real-based party members.

One hilarious thing I thought of is the Steel Knife* Stack. Take as many X-linked Steel Knives as possible. Stack damage buffs. Since damage buffs are per attack and X-linked weapons each make individual attacks, all damage buffs are multiplied by your Arsenal level - 1 (including things like the bonus from str mod). At Attacker 1 at level 13, that's already a total buff of 36 damage. The downside is each one has to overcome DR on its own, but that's a LOT of chances to get 20s. (I'm not actually at 13 yet, just thinking ahead to possible hilarity). At arsenal VI at level 19, each level of Attacker alone gains you 75 damage, allowing you to potentially deal more average damage than some Arsenal VII Heavy weapons when using a maneuver that overcomes DR, like Colossal Strike.

The easy way to patch this, if you want to, is to say that when using Twin- and X-linked weapons any damage buffs and other damage bonuses are distributed evenly over all the attacks (or in some other way impaired).

* This also works with Assault Blade, but that's not Defensive. Going from Xd8 to Xd10 isn't worth it, and I prefer the wider crit range of Steel Knife to the higher multiplier of Assault Blade, especially when combined with Battle Cry or similar.

[Anomander]

Your strategy is similar to what I had in mind myself.

Take as many X-linked Steel Knives as possible

Why take so many? You don't get more attacks for selecting it more than once.
Get it once and you instantly get X amount of that weapon linked together. If you make a X-link-compatible attack to have them all strike together, only a single set can be used.

Something on a similar note that may be worth mentioning is that although twin/X-linked weapons with ammo technically attack like a single weapon since they each have their own clip of ammo, the same isn't true of weapons requiring energy.
In the case of ammo-based weapons, for example, if one was to get his twin-linked gun disarmed or volatile'd, you lose one of the two and still got the other one to fight with, albeit without its twin. So if you shoot once with it and then recover the lost weapon, both weapons aren't at the same amount of ammo.
But if you use a twin-linked weapon that requires 5 EN per shot, you need 10 EN to shoot it since you just fired two of that weapon. Not sure if that was intended.

[CKirk]

Something on a similar note that may be worth mentioning is that although twin/X-linked weapons with ammo technically attack like a single weapon since they each have their own clip of ammo, the same isn't true of weapons requiring energy.
In the case of ammo-based weapons, for example, if one was to get his twin-linked gun disarmed or volatile'd, you lose one of the two and still got the other one to fight with, albeit without its twin. So if you shoot once with it and then recover the lost weapon, both weapons aren't at the same amount of ammo.
But if you use a twin-linked weapon that requires 5 EN per shot, you need 10 EN to shoot it since you just fired two of that weapon. Not sure if that was intended.

I've asked this question before. It's intentional.

[Fzzr]

Your strategy is similar to what I had in mind myself.

Take as many X-linked Steel Knives as possible

Why take so many? You don't get more attacks for selecting it more than once.
Get it once and you instantly get X amount of that weapon linked together. If you make a X-link-compatible attack to have them all strike together, only a single set can be used.

Yah, that's what I meant. Just max out the X-linkage (not that there's ever any reason not to).

Something on a similar note that may be worth mentioning is that although twin/X-linked weapons with ammo technically attack like a single weapon since they each have their own clip of ammo, the same isn't true of weapons requiring energy.
In the case of ammo-based weapons, for example, if one was to get his twin-linked gun disarmed or volatile'd, you lose one of the two and still got the other one to fight with, albeit without its twin. So if you shoot once with it and then recover the lost weapon, both weapons aren't at the same amount of ammo.
But if you use a twin-linked weapon that requires 5 EN per shot, you need 10 EN to shoot it since you just fired two of that weapon. Not sure if that was intended.

I remember this came up a while ago and oslecamo said that it's working as intended. That's why I went with steel knives - no energy cost. Doing this even with just Plasma Swords instead makes the whole thing much less valuable since you have to pay for each attack by each linked weapon.

[SorO_Lost]

Why take so many? You don't get more attacks for selecting it more than once.

I brought this up ages ago which lead to a series of nerfs that notably included a cap on the amount of weapons you can use (which none, then limit to hd, now 1/3 of hd). But yes, there is a reason for taking a weapon more than once.

When full attacking, a mecha may choose to either perform iteratives with a single weapon or attack once with any or all of its in-built and arsenal weapons, up to a total of weapons equal to 1+1/3 their pilot level, rounded down. In the latter case, all weapons after the first take a -5 penalty on the attack roll, only add half the relevant stat to damage, and cannot benefit from any precision damage.

Damage really isn't a problem through. Like even if you boil things down to clear choices, a lv14 Super with a Field Lance @20 Str, they can still use Colossal Strike while in the Way of the Sword Stance. They get an extra +12 to Attack rolls, it's a Touch Attack too, and it ignores all Miss Chances so obviously it hits. It deals 24d12+68 (224 avg) and ignores DR. Your typical Super has more HP than a Real and they only have 225 assuming they took Plating eight times so you can generally destroy all but the tankist of mechs in one attack with at level simple choices and subpar ability scores. Plus once they learn they can use Spirit, using Fury will counter people trying to use stuff like Alert/Defend/Invincibility to survive.

[Anomander]

I had considered that point but it doesn't help all that much since even if you make an alternate full attack, each set of X-linked weapon isn't striking as one weapon. They do so separately.
A level 10 real with access to arsenal IV can only do 4 attacks with an alt full-attack. If he uses 4-Linked steel knives for it, he'll use the four steel knives of the x-linked set, dealing 4 attacks. There isn't much of an advantage to it unless it is the only affordable means of getting a hold of 4 weapons.

Oh, to be clear, the reasoning behind this statement is that even though twin-linked says it works on a fullattack and that alternate fullattacks are still fullattacks, it doesn't change that the alternate fullattack has a cap on the amount of weapons used. Despite twin-linked allowing the weapons of a set to attack together whenever one would attack, it doesn't change that each identical weapon is a separate weapon, which falls under the restriction.

[oslecamo]

Fun facts for today:
-A level 14 super pilot with 20 Str using way of the sword with colossal strike would deal  2x(12d12+10 (str mod doubled)+14(stance))=24d12+48, which averages to 204 damage.
-Fury does not bypass Alert just as it does not bypass miss chances or any other effect that simply prevents you from hitting somebody.

Great! Unrelated minor question:

Disarming reads:

Disarming: If you deal damage with this weapon, you can attempt a Disarm as a free action on the target without provoking attacks of opportunity nor needing to make a new attack roll, even if at range. However you cannot try to pick up the weapon of your enemy if you succeed and have a free hand. A Heavy weapon grants a +6 bonus on the Disarm roll.

Since the Disarm attempt provided by Disarming does not require a new attack roll, does that mean Strike guarantees a successful disarm?

As Anomander said, the disarm itself is not an attack roll.

Sound changes.

-You're a super and want better arsenal.

Oh? I'd have though that the limit of the mecha itself would have prevented access to something beyond its max arsenal level. As in, sure, you can build it but that doesn't mean your mecha can actually equip it. Though perhaps that limit was only meant for arsenal options acquired off the class ability.
Getting up to rank VII accessories/weapons early for your super robot is an excellent deal. Not all that expensive either even though it takes a hardpoint/arsenal to equip.
Ah, it mentions building/costs for arsenal accessories but there isn't a craft skill for those.

Fixed. And on second thought, explicitly locked equiping arsenal stuff to what a normal pilot would normally be able to.

I've already given up on Arsenal as a Super because the lack of Ammo Melee makes X-linking and full attacks with Arsenal Melee weapons unsustainable, significantly reducing options. There are a few Brutal Ammo Ranged but they tend to be Heavy or extremely inferior to Super Builtin options. Overall I'm doubling down on maneuvers crossed over with Zero Weapon, Special Attack, Favored Maneuver, and Attacker/Predict. I keep a low-arsenal-space Defensive weapon on hand to maintain Attacker/Predict with multiple enemies as I go. Strike for early on when the buffs aren't stacked so it's hard to hit reals, Yell to get buffs early. Love or Battle Cry for important attacks. We'll see over the next level or so how that keeps up with the real-based party members.

I still find it ironic that you count anything's that not a pure super as a real, even if they have zero levels of real pilot and don't use a single real robot.

One hilarious thing I thought of is the Steel Knife* Stack. Take as many X-linked Steel Knives as possible. Stack damage buffs. Since damage buffs are per attack and X-linked weapons each make individual attacks, all damage buffs are multiplied by your Arsenal level - 1 (including things like the bonus from str mod). At Attacker 1 at level 13, that's already a total buff of 36 damage. The downside is each one has to overcome DR on its own, but that's a LOT of chances to get 20s. (I'm not actually at 13 yet, just thinking ahead to possible hilarity). At arsenal VI at level 19, each level of Attacker alone gains you 75 damage, allowing you to potentially deal more average damage than some Arsenal VII Heavy weapons when using a maneuver that overcomes DR, like Colossal Strike.

The easy way to patch this, if you want to, is to say that when using Twin- and X-linked weapons any damage buffs and other damage bonuses are distributed evenly over all the attacks (or in some other way impaired).

* This also works with Assault Blade, but that's not Defensive. Going from Xd8 to Xd10 isn't worth it, and I prefer the wider crit range of Steel Knife to the higher multiplier of Assault Blade, especially when combined with Battle Cry or similar.

I don't see how effects like Colossal Strike would work. It says to make one attack with one weapon, and x-linked doesn't say anything about rewriting maneuvers to your whims.

Thus the basic penalty of the steel knife having neither power or rending remains, so the buff multiplication is pretty much the only reason to take x-linked anything. Even then with the multi-attack rules you're better off taking a bunch of highter tier weapons unless you're really short on arsenal space.

[SorO_Lost]

Fun facts for today:

I suppose you're semi-right, Alert isn't exactly a Miss Chance (which btw is ignored from the stance, not the spirit), but that's ok since instead of using Anger for extra damage they can just use Swat to attack as a Swift Action first.

[CKirk]

I still find it ironic that you count anything's that not a pure super as a real, even if they have zero levels of real pilot and don't use a single real robot.

To be fair, Moon Vanguard replicates class levels, and I'm maxing real levels (to the latest available arsenal grade, because non grade up levels are dead in real, to a moon vanguard). I'm currently using a grade IV generic real robot.

[oslecamo]

I still find it ironic that you count anything's that not a pure super as a real, even if they have zero levels of real pilot and don't use a single real robot.

To be fair, Moon Vanguard replicates class levels, and I'm maxing real levels (to the latest available arsenal grade, because non grade up levels are dead in real, to a moon vanguard). I'm currently using a grade IV generic real robot.

This reminds me, how do you deal with the bit where the Moon Vanguard only gets to be mecha-scale a few turns per day?

[CKirk]

I still find it ironic that you count anything's that not a pure super as a real, even if they have zero levels of real pilot and don't use a single real robot.

To be fair, Moon Vanguard replicates class levels, and I'm maxing real levels (to the latest available arsenal grade, because non grade up levels are dead in real, to a moon vanguard). I'm currently using a grade IV generic real robot.

This reminds me, how do you deal with the bit where the Moon Vanguard only gets to be mecha-scale a few turns per day?

By using Squad Breaker to instantly kill any enemies we run into. Also, I have about 30 turns per day of mecha scale (3 overdrives, +9 stat mod), which is more than enough.

On the topic of Squad Breaker, as someone who abuses it a ton, I would personally recommend its blast radius getting quartered (to one square/two pilot levels). This would make it so that you  couldn't hit every enemy in an encounter with a single shot. This would also put it a lot more in line with the blasts of ranged MAP attacks in SRW games

[oslecamo]

You know, there's a reason why in the SRW games enemies often come in waves, to wear down your buffs and also avoid they being all focused by area effects in one go.

Anyway nerfed the area as suggested, I agree it was a tad too big.

Also out of curiosity, what do you use for map/positioning, in particular 3D movement?

[CKirk]

You know, there's a reason why in the SRW games enemies often come in waves, to wear down your buffs and also avoid they being all focused by area effects in one go.

Anyway nerfed the area as suggested, I agree it was a tad too big.

Also out of curiosity, what do you use for map/positioning, in particular 3D movement?

We're using Roll20 for the map. verticality is generally done as per SRW (2D plane, you can be flying if you want) because it's a pain to keep track of 3d movement

[Fzzr]

Thanks for the great fixes. Also good to know on the X-linked thing. I wasn't actually intending to do it (while robot shows are often silly, it wouldn't fit the tone of my character to become a tornado of knives) but it's good to know that it won't work in case I got tempted.

[SorO_Lost]

We're using Roll20 for the map. verticality is generally done as per SRW (2D plane, you can be flying if you want) because it's a pain to keep track of 3d movement

It's a pain to track movement without a map/minis anyway. But you can get minis with a slider for flight levels, or just just set a Lego figure on a stack of poker chips, which makes tracking 3D movement as easy as tracking 2D.

[Anomander]

I myself use digital 3-d models of the maps quickly built with crude shapes, then use shapes I've pre-made to determine 3-d area of effects and measure movements and such with "measuring line planes". Faster than it may seem.