Author Topic: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing  (Read 11492 times)

Offline Master of Filth

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Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« on: September 13, 2012, 06:19:15 PM »
The purpose of this post is twofold: Suggesting a new and flexible min-maxing path for gishes and showcasing a sample gish build that portrays the advangaes of this path.

It's common knowledge that spellcasting is the most potent ability in D&D 3.5, so it naturally follows that the power of a spellcasting build is directly dependant to its spellcasting progression.

Enter the Gish!

The dream of every gish player is to seamlessly meld melee combat and spellcasting. It is a noble purpose, and sounds good in theory, but once we play with one of these characters we realise that we dont have a master of sword and spell. We have a character that kinda sucks at both. Most of the time we would be better off simply going for a full spellcasting build and dipping into prestige classes that further enhance our spellcasting skills. ¿What is having a full BAB progression going to do for us if we don't have the strength or the combat feats to make it count? The main problems with gishing are

1) You are MAD thus making your build inconsistent
2) You are using your standard actions to buff your combat capabilities, thus making you useless until the final stages of the fight.
3) You are using your spells to potentially take down an opponent, thus making your combat capabilities useless
4) You are polymorphing. (Maybe you should specialize in polymorphing if you are following this path)

My reasoning is this: If you are going to aim for maximizing your spellcasting capabilities you are better off playing a non-gish character, enchanting a two handed sword with bloodstone, and casting tenser transformation on yourself.

The build I'm going to propose doesn't focus on maxing your spellcasting progression. The main purposes of this build are:

1) Having a way to make each build feel Unique through customization.
2) Maxing out your combat effectiveness and front-line survibability
3) Maxing your action economy


The path of entry I suggest is this one.
Suggested Race: Human

Standard 25 point buy (for a Str Based Build)
Str: 15
Dex: 13 (for Dodge and Mobility)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

Standard 25 point buy (for a Dex Based Build)
Str: 12
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 13

  • Full BAB class, Dodge, Mobility
  • Full BAB class
  • Sorcerer (Divine Companion ACF) Combat casting
  • Sorcerer
  • Full BAB class
  • Full BAB class, Bonus Feat
  • Abjurant Champion, Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration
  • Abjurant Champion, Swift Abjuration
  • Abjurant Champion, Bonus Feat
  • Abjurant Champion, Arcane Boost
  • Abjurant Champion, Martial Arcanist
  • Swiftblade, spring attack, swift surge +1/+0, Arcane Strike (as the bonus feat for level 12)
  • Swiftblade, Blurred Alacrity
  • Swiftblade, Sudden Casting
  • Swiftblade, Arcane Reflexes, Swist Surge +1/+10ft, Bonus Feat
  • Swiftblade, Evasive Celerity
  • Swiftblade, Fortified Hustle
  • Swiftblade, Bounding Assault, swift surge +2/+10ft, Bonus Feat
  • Swiftblade, Diligent Rapidity
  • Swiftblade, Perpetual Options

Base Attack Bonus: 19
Caster Level: 19, able to cast 6th level spells
Mandatory spells known: Shield (lvl 1), Heroics (lvl 2) (SC), Haste (lvl 3)


Why sorcerer and not wizard?

Because of three things:
1) Spontaneous casting
2) Divine companion (CC)
3) Extra spells per level to burn to Arcane Strike (CW) and Divine Companion

What does "Full BAB Class" mean?

It means that you can dip 4 levels into whatever Full BAB progression class you want and still qualify for this build. Some options include:

Gish Paladin: 4 levels of paladin will grant you Divine Grace and Turn Undead. Turn undead is super relevant here because of Law Devotion, a Feat which gives a +7 SACRED buff to AC or attack. With proper itemization this feat will let you easily cross the 60 AC Barrier. This makes the Gish Paladin the best defensive choice. Access to 1st level divine spells is a nice bonus.

Gish Fighter: Armored mage ACF (CM) will nullify Arcane spell failure for spells of level 5 and lower. This build also gives you three extra bonus feats that will let you specialize in any style of combat you decide. This build virtually makes the fighter class obsolete.

Gish Duskblade: Combat Casting for free at Lvl 2, extra arcane spells to fuel your Divine Companion, ability to cast spells in medium armor without arcane spell failure, and the Arcane Channeling Ability. This one is another a solid choice.

So how does this build help me...

Max out my combat effectiveness and front line survibability?

For starters, this build has good HP, good base saving throws, an almost full BAB progression (+19), an extra +2 bonus to attack rolls, an extra 1d6 skirmish damage, . It also gives you 4 extra feats that you can invest in whichever way you feel like. Also, if you come to learn in advance the nature of the next encounter you can use the Heroics spell to add whatever feat you think that best accomodates you. The fact that this build doesn't rely that much on spellcasting will let you use the Arcane Strike feat for maximum effectiveness.

Divine companion is the main defensive ability of this build. It replaces your familiar with a spirit entity that acts as a reservoir for spell energy; you can burn this spell energy to heal yourself as a standard action or to grant a deflection bonus to AC equal to the number of charges you burn for a number of rounds equal to your caster level as a swift action. This counts as an abjuration spell, so Extended Abjuration will extend it.

So what can a +19 deflection bonus on AC and a +19 bonus on saving throws do for you? The AC bonus, in conjuction with the Abjurant armor class feature, will net you an AC  of 38 (19 deflection, +9 shield bonus +10) by level 20. If you max out your bonuses from armor, dexterity, dodge and natural armor by actively investing on defense items you will be able to rise your AC to 60 (Bracers of Armor +8, Necklace of Natural Armor +6, a modest +3 dexterity bonus, and all the dodge bonuses to AC from feats and spells). In addition, the +19 resistance bonus on saving throws effectively means that you can only fail your checks by rolling a 1. And to top it off, remember that your Haste spell (which you can cast as free action) will grant you a 50% miss chance against both spells and attacks directed against you.

Optimize my action economy?
This build allows you to cast Haste and any abjuration spell you know of level 3 or less as a swift action. Perpetual Options will grant you an extra standard action while under the effects of your own haste spell. All these class features will allow you to focus on the task at hand: Pummelling your enemies with your weapon of choice. In order to maximize your battle prowess be sure to pick spells with a duration of 1 hour per caster level. Greater Magic Weapon really shines on this build.

Suggested Spells:

Level 1 Spells:

Shield: This spell is your main source of armor. This is a MUST for every single build.
Enlarge Person: 10ft Reach and a size bonus to Str. This is tonz of fun with improved trip, knockdown and whirlwind attack.
Stand (PH2): Sometimes tripping goes wrong...
Protection from Evil: So you are a killing machine, arent you? This spell makes sure you can't be mindcontrolled.
Mage armor: Take this only if you arent a fighter or duskblade. It will become useless once you get bracers of armor.
Nerveskitter (SC): a +4 bonus to Initiative rolls ain't nothing to frown at.

Level 2 Spells:

Heroics (SC): The added versatility this spell provides is just to sweet to ignore. This spell will let you compensate for your lack of feats
Arcane Turmoil (CM): Targeted dispells always come in handy.
Resist Energy: More survivability and action economy!
Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc. These are not so hot as they force you to use an standard action
False Life

Level 3 Spells:

Haste: This spell is a MUST if you want to progress into the Swiftblade PrC.
Magic Weapon, Greater: I'm really fond of this spell in this build. You just cast it once in the morning for an added bonus on all attack and damage rolls. Sounds like a good deal!
Dispel Magic: Why not?
Fly: 1) Get a bow. 2) Buff your AC and saves 3) Cast Fly 4) ?????  5) PROFIT!

Level 4 Spells:

Ray deflection: There is always room for more caster hate. Besides, remember that other members of your party arent likely to be as immortal as you are.
Invisibility, Greater: It's cheesy, it's cheap, it's awesome!
Stoneskin: Damage Reduction is nothing to scoff at!

Level 5 Spells:
 
Arcane Fusion (CM): This spell is that it lets you break action economy even further.
Fireburst, Greater (SC):  Lot's of 1d10 in a 20ft burst around you. It may come in handy if you find yourself surrounded by enemies.
Break Enchantment: Situational spell but remember that you can always burn spell slots to arcane strike.

Level 6 Spells:
Antimagic Field: If there is a caster that can get away with this that's you. Your Haste counts as an Extraordinary ability, so it doesnt get suppresed by this aura.
Greater Dispel Magic
True Sight

Some Feat Suggestions
Summon Familiar: You will be able to turn your familiar into a murderous animal thanks to all the buffs you can cast on yourself. You can also cast antimagic field on it and send it flying at high speed against the enemy spellcaster.

Whew! That was one long guide. I hope you find it useful. If you have any interesting spells or feats that you can suggest I will gladly add them here.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 06:35:37 PM by Master of Filth »

Offline NunoM

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 07:33:30 PM »
I'm not a min/maxing expert but here are my 2 cents.

If the full BAB class is a Duskblade, you can dump that "Combat Casting" feat at 3rd level and replace it by "Knowledge Devotion" to pump up your attack bonus and damage...

EDIT: Sorcerer is also a good synergy for the Duskblade channeling, since he can channel any spell he knows, the only problem is that the typical dump stat for the Duskblade (CHA), can't be...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 07:46:02 PM by NunoM »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 07:53:23 PM »
The +16 BAB and 9th level spells by level 20
standard was more a contrivance than a necessity.
The idea ended up being a tag of sorts, that
worked with Epic slightly better.  You get the 4
attacks and of course you don't pick Epic Spells,
you could, but you don't.  It doesn't have to be the standard.

If you wanna open things up to "just" casting level 6s ...  :smirk
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Offline Endarire

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 09:36:23 PM »
At levels 7 and higher, Ye Olde Wizarde can use polymorph to turn him into Ye Olde Pyrohydra.  Ye Ha.

Ahem.

Transformational magic does help a straight Wizard or other caster with the gish aspect.  But if you wanna do it from low levels, and gish through items and feats, you are splitting your actions and your stats/resources no matter what.

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 09:57:57 PM »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 10:38:20 PM »
Needs more JPM, otherwise it's just a Sorcerer spellcaster validating his usage of Swiftblade.

Offline Empirate

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 03:29:40 AM »
IMO getting the highest possible spell levels, and lots of spell slots, is always desirable in a gish build. Even if you don't use your magic much in combat (except to buff beforehand and to Arcane Strike/Channel), the out-of-combat utility is what sets the gish apart from a Barbarian or Warblade. You want to be able to help your party not only by hitting things really hard (which puts even a gish into tier 4 at best), but by hitting things really hard AND having a bunch of interesting options to fall back on when there's nothing around for you to hit, or hitting it doesn't work.

Sure, level 6 spells can do a lot, but you're only getting them at level 18 - when most problems that need magic cannot be solved by mere 6th level spells anymore. Oh, and you only get one 6th level spell known, anyway. AND you're kinda squishy for a frontliner (Swiftblade only gets d6 HP/level). Besides, I don't even see how this creation is much less MAD than a regular gish - you still need Cha, which does nothing for a melee specialist except let you cast spells. And you need Str, Dex and Con for meleeing it.

To be sure, I like the idea of making gishes less of a spellcaster and more of a warrior - but your creation is basically a slightly more flexible Duskblade. And Duskblades have rightly been compared to Barbarians, where their party role is concerned.

Offline altpersona

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 03:49:08 AM »
 :huh


i thought a gish was a full caster whose robes and staff are enchanted to look like armor and sword.

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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 06:47:49 AM »
Are'nt Gishes just Wizards with 5 levels in Abjurant Champion?
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Offline Wiggins

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 07:21:41 AM »
You're forgetting the level of Dragonslayer :)

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 08:17:37 AM »
Divine gish: Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 4/RKV 3/Divine Champion 1/Sovereign Speaker 8/RKV +4

Spontaneous casting up to 9th-level from 8 domains.  DMM Persist for Divine Power (yay full BAB).  Divine Impetus.

You win.
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Offline Master of Filth

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 10:08:02 AM »
This seems familiar.

Busted! I'm the same poster, but I made some improvements in build and redaction.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 10:14:53 AM »
This seems to be taking the opposite philosophy of the "Divine Power Gishes" thread, which advocated going with a full caster and picking up Persistent or Quickened Divine Power somehow. I can see the merits in both, and I guess it depends on what you want to play. If I actually feel like taking the time to make and play a spellcaster, I'd likely favor the "Divine Power" method, though. If I don't, I'd rather go with something simpler that uses little to no spellcasting.
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Offline gorfnab

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 10:13:41 PM »
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist 8
Wu-Jen 5/ Warblade 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Abjurant Champion 4/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Duskblade 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3
Wizard 5/ Knight Phantom 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 7
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

Offline Wiggins

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 11:59:42 PM »
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist 8
Wu-Jen 5/ Warblade 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Abjurant Champion 4/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Duskblade 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3
Wizard 5/ Knight Phantom 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 7
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

Not sure about some of these builds; for instance

How does Wizard 5 get proficiency in all martial weapons to qualify for Knight Phantom?

Offline altpersona

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2012, 12:06:31 AM »
outsiders and giants get 'all martial weapons' as a racial perk.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2012, 12:19:31 AM »
Yeah, but Lesser Half-Giant may or may not allow you to ignore taking levels in it's Racial Class found in a horribly written book and is there even a +0 LA Outsider Race?

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2012, 12:27:35 AM »
Yes. 

Offline Wiggins

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2012, 01:21:30 AM »
I apologise, I'd forgotten the Neraphim...

Offline blind sight

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Re: Gishing theory: proposing a different way for min-maxing
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2012, 01:27:00 PM »
These builds always seem to forget Wraith Strike.
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