Is there a way to make Profession (Executioner) viable in combat?

[Nameless Void]

Which means this doesn't actually work at all because as soon as you are in range you are counted as being "in melee"....



It would be more beneficial if you could advise if there is an actual rule for when melee begins, rather than being a smart ass about fluff Soro. Sorry to call you out but that response annoyed me.   

Personally I believe Melee begins when both parties have attacked. I don't know of a rule for this but it would make sense - otherwise it is a surprise round and melee hasn't been joined

[SorO_Lost]

The rules don't actually say "in combat."  They say "in melee."  So by SorO's reading, you'd have to throw the axe at the guy's neck or something.

Oh no not at all. In fact, tossing it sounds like a "well the rules don't say I can't", not exactly a nice area to be standing in.

If you want to auto kill using an Executioner's axe, you don't use it as a weapon (obviously) and you (obviously) need to use the Execution rules. This means no attack roll, instead you are making an Execution check, which is part of Profession, which is a Skill Check (obviously). So when does hitting someone change from being a melee in combat to a skill check?

It's a gray area (obviously). Because what is or isn't Combat is a mechanical rule. Like BAB or HP, what you think you can do or cannot do as a simulation is of no concern. Rules state you cannot autokill while using it as a weapon, so (obviously) you have to be dispatched far enough away from combat rules that swinging the weapon would be considered a skill check. Like how Blacksmiths don't make attack rolls while hitting metal with a hammer or how stabbing needles into cloth (1 dmg per) doesn't "break" it but sew it.

If you ask me, the concept of grapple has nothing to do with two guys fighting on the ground, but two guys hold the victims arms as he is bent over a chopping block. Because the neck needs to be exposed, (obviously) this doesn't mean in the middle of a full nelson.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

?

Limited Wish = This is not combat
Ranged Pin
Polymorphed Familiar does the pin
Ready the execution action
Move to strike neck

[carnivore]

the key to understanding how to use the Axe, is in what SorO_Lost posted .....

using a Headsman’s Axe ... is a Skill check, it is not an attack roll, but the check can be made in the middle of combat Provided you meet the the Execution Requirements

Headsman’s Axe: When specially sharpened and held with the proper technique, a  greataxe (or a greatsword) can serve the executioner as the instrument of execution. The condemned is restrained, with the neck vulnerable to the strike readied by the executioner. On a successful Profession (executioner) check, the condemned dies instantly. If the executioner fails the attempt, the headsman’s axe delivers a coup de grace against the condemned (automatic critical hit, and the condemned must succeed on a Fortitude save or die). The coup de grace simply completes the executioner’s task more messily.

"the proper technique" refers to a Skilled use of an "instrument" which in this case happens to be an Axe

to understand more clearly ....look at the rules regarding Execution:

RULES OF EXECUTION
The condemned must first be secured by being tied in place, pinned in a grapple, or successfully restrained in a stationary execution device. If restrained in an execution device, the condemned can attempt to make a Escape Artist check every round against the DC noted in Table 3–2, unless magically held or otherwise helpless. If grappled, the condemned can attempt to break the grapple normally.
Once the victim is secure, the executioner can attempt the chosen method of execution. The executioner makes a Profession (executioner) check against the DC given for the device on Table 3–2. If the check is successful, the condemned is slain according to the nature of the device. If the executioner fails, the execution is botched, and the executioner can make another check the following round. Botched attempts deal the damage noted for the device, so the condemned may be killed even if the executioner botches the attempt. Prideful executioners—which includes most of them—take it as a personal point of dishonor if they kill the condemned on a botched execution.
Execution Devices as Weapons: Some execution devices, such as headsman’s axes, make adequate melee weapons. In melee, such an item deals normal damage for an item of its kind (such as a greataxe) and cannot kill instantly. Most other devices of execution cannot be used in melee.
Masterwork Devices: Masterwork execution devices provide a +1 circumstance bonus on the executioner’s Profession (executioner) check. They cost twice as much as the versions given in Table 3–2.

in most Combat situations it is not possible for a single character to do both :
1) Pin the Character and
2) be free to make the Profession(Executioner) skill check, since it also requires a readied action to make the check

the Axe is not being used to make a Combat Strike but a precise swing at a helpless target .... also the weilder is not in Combat per-say, rather the assistant who Grapples and Pins the Victim is in Combat,since Grappling is a Special Attack Action. The weilder of the Axe simply waits until the victim is helpless, then practices his Skill at Execution

if used as a Melee weapon, it simply does damage as per a regular axe of its type(modified by any enchantments it might have) .... it has no ability to Insta-Kill. Executions are not combat situations and are governed by different rules.



 

[zook1shoe]

I would assume that the executioner could also be in combat... But once the foe is helpless, that is when combat ends and he can execute them

[bionicgeek]

Could this be utilized with a set of Dvati twins?

It's from the BOVD pg.40. The bolded part is very interesting. Unfortunately the victim needs to be restrained with "the neck vulnerable to the strike readied by the executioner" . Does anyone have any ideas as to how to do this in combat?

notice:

EXECUTION EQUIPMENT
Execution of prisoners, far from light and hope of rescue, is something all creatures fear when venturing into realms where vengeance or brute malice holds sway. Despicable overlords and despotic states alike enjoy particularly cruel forms of execution, deriding even the idea of lesser penalties. And even an otherwise enlightened society may find that vengeance is more important to it than reformation of the convicted. And so the executioner’s profession never lacks for work. The executioner seeks death for the condemned with a swift stroke. Sometimes, death by torture is the command given to the executioner, but in such a case he will often remand the client to a torturer to carry out the sentence. However, many execution devices are also extraordinarily painful for those destined to feel their cruel, final embrace.

RULES OF EXECUTION
The condemned must first be secured by being tied in place, pinned in a grapple, or successfully restrained in a stationary execution device. If restrained in an execution device, the condemned can attempt to make a Escape Artist check every round against the DC noted in Table 3–2, unless magically held or otherwise helpless. If grappled, the condemned can attempt to break the grapple normally.
Once the victim is secure, the executioner can attempt the chosen method of execution. The executioner makes a Profession (executioner) check against the DC given for the device on Table 3–2. If the check is successful, the condemned is slain according to the nature of the device. If the executioner fails, the execution is botched, and the executioner can make another check the following round. Botched attempts deal the damage noted for the device, so the condemned may be killed even if the executioner botches the attempt. Prideful executioners—which includes most of them—take it as a personal point of dishonor if they kill the condemned on a botched execution.
Execution Devices as Weapons: Some execution devices, such as headsman’s axes, make adequate melee weapons. In melee, such an item deals normal damage for an item of its kind (such as a greataxe) and cannot kill instantly. Most other devices of execution cannot be used in melee.
Masterwork Devices: Masterwork execution devices provide a +1 circumstance bonus on the executioner’s Profession(executioner) check. They cost twice as much as the versions given in Table 3–2.

someone else must Grapple them ....then you can deliver the Execution blow with the Headsmans Axe using the Profession(Executioner) Skill

 

[linklord231]

If you want to auto kill using an Executioner's axe, you don't use it as a weapon (obviously) and you (obviously) need to use the Execution rules. This means no attack roll, instead you are making an Execution check, which is part of Profession, which is a Skill Check (obviously). So when does hitting someone change from being a melee in combat to a skill check?

Isn't this more or less exactly what I said?

It seems fairly clear that the above rule was meant as "if you're using this as just an ordinary greataxe, you can't execute them.  If you're using it as a Headsman's Axe as part of a Profession(Executioner) check, it works."