Design Goals

[phaedrusxy]

I envision this as being a subsystem about traveling into the conscious and sub-conscious mind of others, mostly in their dreams or nightmares, but perhaps also assaulting them while awake by inducing hallucinations with which you interact with them (but this is obviously going to overlap a bit with Enchantment and Illusion). I also think that there should be various levels of skill with which you can do this, and rules for how and what you can do (obviously). I'm going to collectively call these "places" Mindscapes. This thread is about defining the goals for the subsystem of interacting with the Mindscapes of others within D&D games, and coming up with concrete ways of achieving those goals.

I. Entering the Minds of Others
    A. Spells/Powers that let you enter the dreams of others
       1. Existing spells/powers
       2. New spells/powers
II. Defining the Dreamscape
   A. Fixed elements: Are there things that cannot be changed, such as certain laws (cause/effect, linear time, etc) in a Mindscape.
   B. Mutable elements: What things can be done in dreams? (I expect this to be the largest section by far.)
       1. What mechanics should we use to determine what an individual can do within the dream of another?
       2. What about within their own dream?
       3. "Trained" or "untrained" dreamers: different mechanics, or the same? Different possible outcomes/actions, or the same with varying difficulty?
III. Defining the Dreamers
  A. The Dreamer's appearance and abilities: Does the Dreamer control this consciously or subconsciously? Mechanics for control of your own appearance and abilities in a Mindscape?
  B. Interlopers: If you're in the dreams of another, how much control do you have over your own appearance and abilities within their dream? How much control can they exert over you?
IV. Other Dream elements
 A. Creatures of the dreamscape
    1. How do these come to be? Who can control them (dreamer or interloper?)?
V. "Contest of Wills"/Opposed control checks

[phaedrusxy]

I. Entering the Minds of Others
    A. Spells/Powers that let you enter the dreams of others
       1. Existing spells/powers
       2. New spells/powers

[phaedrusxy]

II. Defining the Dreamscape
   A. Fixed elements: Are there things that cannot be changed, such as certain laws (cause/effect, linear time, etc) in a Mindscape.
   B. Mutable elements: What things can be done in dreams? (I expect this to be the largest section by far.)
       1. What mechanics should we use to determine what an individual can do within the dream of another?
       2. What about within their own dream?
       3. "Trained" or "untrained" dreamers: different mechanics, or the same? Different possible outcomes/actions, or the same with varying difficulty?

[phaedrusxy]

III. Defining the Dreamers
  A. The Dreamer's appearance and abilities: Does the Dreamer control this consciously or subconsciously? Mechanics for control of your own appearance and abilities in a Mindscape?
  B. Interlopers: If you're in the dreams of another, how much control do you have over your own appearance and abilities within their dream? How much control can they exert over you?

[phaedrusxy]

IV. Other Dream elements
 A. Creatures of the dreamscape
    1. How do these come to be? Who can control them (dreamer or interloper?)?

[phaedrusxy]

V. "Contest of Wills"/Opposed control checks

I think there should certainly be the chance to fight for control of dream elements, as even if you have experienced Lucid Dreaming in real life, you know that you can have control in a dream one minute, but lose it the next, and this would just be within the dream of one mind: things are certainly going to be more complicated when you have multiple, distinct consciousnesses within the dream.

So we need to come up with opposed check rules for when two "dream characters" battle for control of an element, and if the dreamer gets an advantage or not, what advantages being a "trained dreamer" offer, etc.

[phaedrusxy]

OK, I'll reserve this one more and hope it is enough. Feel free to discuss the structure above and/or help me flesh it out more.

[Garryl]

Regarding trained/untrained dreamers, I'd suggest instead/in addition the distinction of aware/unaware (that it is a dream) dreamers. Characters trained in Lucid Dreaming or Dreamscaping or whatever are always considered aware, but various spells and abilities might allow others to temporarily become aware, even if they aren't trained. Some effects should certainly be reserved for trained dreamers, but untrained dreamers certainly need ways to interact with the dreamscape world.

In general, I'd prefer if existing mechanics and effects have a valid place in the dream world. Whether or not they can control dream elements (which I'd liken to a new subsystem), normal D&D characters need to be able to participate without feeling like either a waste of space or that they're not playing the same game. I'd fully expect dreamers to be stronger in the dream world than an equivalent non-dreamer character, but still be on the same overall scale.

[phaedrusxy]

I agree with all of your points. I'm thinking of including the following distinctions:

1) Aware vs. Unaware (whether they know they are in a dream or not). Being aware will certainly give you substantial modifiers to whatever skill/mechanic we decide to go with as far as manipulating the Dreamscape
2) Dreamer vs. Interloper: If it is your dream, you certainly should have some advantages.
3) Trained vs. Untrained: Ranks in Lucid Dreaming (or whatever we go with) should of course give you advantages and perhaps make things possible which aren't for the untrained dreamer or interloper.

I think an Aware Dreamer should be approximately equal to an Aware Interloper in power, on average, with more highly skilled Interlopers being able to outclass an average Aware Dreamer, but less skilled ones being in real danger if the Dreamer suddenly understands that they are in a dream, and that it has been invaded by someone else, especially if the Dreamer is someone with a powerful mind (not sure how to represent this, maybe a mental ability score check?).

I'm thinking much of this is going to be based on skill use, but what the person can do in the waking world should certainly be accessible to them inside the dream in some form, regardless of whether they're trained, aware, a dreamer, or interloper. I'm thinking that perhaps doing anything beyond the totally mundane (like walking around) will require some kind of a check (probably Lucid Dreaming) which can also be attempted untrained. Being Aware will give a bonus, being the Dreamer will also give a bonus. And I think Skill Tricks and feats as ways to enhance what you can do with the skill are a great idea. That's probably how most of the mechanics I have in mind are going to flesh out.

[phaedrusxy]

OK, finally pulled out my MotP and looked at the section on Dream and the Lucid Dreaming skill. I like much of what I see there, especially the parts about the plane, but the skill leaves much to be desired. I do not like that it is "trained only", and there needs to be some big modifiers for the things I listed above. Also, you should be able to pull off all kinds of fantastical things if you're good enough at using the skill. I saw a variant somewhere that let you reproduce spell effects, so I think I'll go with a version of that. So here is a first pass at my modified version of Lucid Dreaming (originally taken from here):


Edit: Moved to its own thread.

[Garryl]

Is that bonus for your own dreamscape supposed to be your Cha score or your Cha mod? Also, make sure to account for negative ability modifiers.

[phaedrusxy]

Is that bonus for your own dreamscape supposed to be your Cha score or your Cha mod? Also, make sure to account for negative ability modifiers.

Thanks Garryl. Fixed. I increased the bonus for being in your own dreamscape to 2xCha mod, also.

[Garryl]

The Dreamheart is like Canada, then?

To confirm, if you're in your own dreamscape and you're aware of it, you get 2x Cha (minimum 1) + 1x Int (minimum 1) + 1x Cha or Int (minimum 1). If your Cha modifier is 0 or lower, you get only a +1 bonus for being in your own dream, not +2. Did I get that right?

[Merchant]

Should there be a penalty to Lucid Dream checks while in the nightmare state? I see it being difficult to think positively enough when you are being swarmed by zombies. What kinds of situations could penalties derive from? Change your appearance to that of a zombie and hide in the crowd until the nightmare has passed.

[linklord231]

Just want to say that I love it so far, keep up the good work.  Also, Factota and Human Paragons the world over will love you forever once this is complete.

[sirpercival]

Can we scavenge any of the Tel'aran'rhiod mechanics from the Wheel of Time RPG?

[phaedrusxy]

Should there be a penalty to Lucid Dream checks while in the nightmare state? I see it being difficult to think positively enough when you are being swarmed by zombies. What kinds of situations could penalties derive from? Change your appearance to that of a zombie and hide in the crowd until the nightmare has passed.

There is already kind of a penalty: you can't take 10.

The Dreamheart is like Canada, then?

To confirm, if you're in your own dreamscape and you're aware of it, you get 2x Cha (minimum 1) + 1x Int (minimum 1) + 1x Cha or Int or Wis (minimum 1). If your Cha modifier is 0 or lower, you get only a +1 bonus for being in your own dream, not +2. Did I get that right?

Yes, that's right, with the exception of the addition (in bold) that I added.

Can we scavenge any of the Tel'aran'rhiod mechanics from the Wheel of Time RPG?

I'm not familiar with the WoT RPG mechanics, but I absolutely LOVED Tel'aran'rhiod in the books, and hell... now that I think about it, I think I wrote up D&D mechanics for Tel'aran'rhiod several years ago... Hmm... actually, I think that might have even been for an RPG supplement that I wrote for a friend's RPG. I'm going to have to look that up...

However, since Tel'aran'rhiod is almost certainly trademarked by Robert Jordan's estate or publisher, we probably can't use the name if we're worried about that at all. So what would we need to modify to make the plane of Dream and mechanics associated with it more like Tel'aran'rhiod?

[phaedrusxy]

I added some additional rules for Lucid Dreaming on Dreamers detecting Dreamwalkers, opposed checks (including suggestions which can alter the dreamscape in profound ways), and also changed the random encounters generated during a Nightmare slightly.

[Garryl]

You have contradictory rules about whether or not the opposed check to avoid being sensed dreamwalking reduces stability.

[phaedrusxy]

You have contradictory rules about whether or not the opposed check to avoid being sensed dreamwalking reduces stability.

How? I don't see the contradiction. Sorry, I have a cold and may be overlooking something obvious...

The intent is that the Dreamwalker will know just before the Dreamer succeeds to detect them, and may then substitute their own Lucid Dreaming check for the DC as an immediate action. Since this then becomes an opposed roll, it will reduce the stability of the dream, as someone is always going to "fail" (as with all opposed rolls).

If the Dreamwalker does not oppose the check, and the Dreamer succeeds in detecting them, then there is no loss of stability. If the Dreamer just fails the first check (against the fixed DC), there will be a loss of Stability. So it behooves the Dreamwalker to make slow, incremental changes to the dream, unless they are willing to risk causing it to become a Nightmare, regardless of their own skill at Lucid Dreaming.