Wildshaped Focused Druid

[brujon]

I'm planning on going druid for a Dragonlance centered game (With influences from other settings). The character i want to play is a natural weapon brute, rending stuff with claws, grappling them and biting their heads off, the whole shebang. I originally planned on going the totemist route, but then i remembered the yummy Bite of the X spells druids get, and then awesome forms for wildshape and the whole other druid suite...
But here's the thing. I really didn't want to go pure druid on this one. I mean, pure druid is awesome, being tier 1 and all, but there really isn't a good prestige class for a wildshape centered druid?

I've looked into variant class feature's for the druid, and the only that jumped to the eye was the Shifter racial sub levels, which seem worth taking. For prestiges, i've looked into maybe going 3 levels of Warshaper(3 cl lost), or 3 levels of Nature's Warrior (2 cl lost), and i really didn't see any other prestiges that are worth taking. Master of Many forms seems lackluster, as you give up spell progression entirely, and gain not that many useful forms for combat(which is what i'm looking into wildshape for) until much later.

So, for wildshape purposes, i'm probably going to be shaping into a Fleshraker until i can shape into something better (probably nothing until Huge size). For feats i'm thinking Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack & Improved Multiattack. I'm lost as to what else i might be looking into. Any advices?

PS: The campaign starts from lvl 1, so a build progression would be great. The build must be playable from the start on. I know the DM and he's pretty brutal on the early levels, i have to earn the right to live past level 5.

[Mooncrow]

Well, how much spellcasting do you want to keep?  It's hard to beat Master of Many Forms for a pure wildshape focus.  Daggerspell Shaper may do what you're looking for though.  You'll need to pick up a level of rogue or scout, and then the PrC gives you 9/10 casting with some decent wild shape boosts.

If that looks like something you would be interested in, I can do a full build for you.

[Rebel7284]

Play a druid with a few dips for fun class features?

Cloistered Cleric 1/Druid 7/Swordsage 2/More druid or Ruby Knight Vindicator

edit: Fist of the Forest is also a fun dip.  Con to AC can be fun with persistent Bite of the Werebear + a high Con wildshape.

[brujon]

Well, it would be interesting to keep Level 9 spells. So at most 3 caster levels lost would be ideal. This is mostly because i don't know if it's really worth it to lose level 9 spells for a small boost in wildshape, seeing as when i hit 9 i get Shapechange. Daggerspell Shaper? I didn't see it, i'm going to take a look into it.

EDIT: Looked into Daggerspell Shaper, it gets some cool class feature's, especially the bit about transferring enchantments from the daggers to the claws. I'm not going to be doing much combat outside of wildshape, though, so most of the other feature's i thouhgt were a bit meh. Sneak attack is cool though.

EDIT2: I think i found my class. Lion of Talsid from Book of Exalted Deeds has full druid casting advancement, advances wildshapes, gives pounce & scent, and other goodies to boot.

[ksbsnowowl]

Nature's Warrior isn't bad.  Depending what class options you pick, it can boost your AC, give you "always on" fast healing, gain DR 3/-, up your melee damage, boost your grapples, and a few other options.

[OblivionSmurf83]

You'll shoot me down if I suggest Planar Shepherd, yes?

Can you use Divine Minion? For something a bit different, I was thinking an Archivist instead of a Druid?

[zioth]

It depends on how long you expect the campaign to last. If you're really hoping for 9th level spells and you don't know how long it will last, you'd better just take your first 17 levels as druid. If you think it will go to 20, you have more flexibility. If you think it will go into epic, then what's the hurry?

Here are some ideas:

Nature's Warrior 4: Better than 3 because you get an extra point of BaB, an extra spellcasting level, and extra bonuses (+4 natural armor instead of +3, for example).

Warshaper 2, 3 or 5: Yes, Warshaper 5 hurts your spellcasting a lot, but the ability to change once per round effectively gives you unlimited wild shape uses. Even better, that ability works with the entire polymorph tree. Think about it - Alter Self that lets you change at will, or Polymorph Any Object that lets you change into absolutely ANYTHING as many times as you want. Also, you might argue that it lets you Shapechange twice per round -- once as a free action, and once as a standard action.

Master of Many Forms 1: Speaking in wild shape is very useful. Speaking any language you want just by turning into something that speaks that language is even better. And depending on your DM's interpretation of the rules, Nature's Warrior might advance the Wild Shape abilities of this class, making MoMF1/NW5 almost as good as MoMF6/NW5.

Master of Many Forms 3: Changing as a move action is nice, especially when combined with Warshaper 5. WS5/MoMF3 is like mini-shapechange. And don't forget that with Wilding Clasps, you can wear magic items in Wild Shape. You can't do that with Shapechange.

Master of Many Forms 5: Nice if your DM allows it to stack with Nature's Warrior. You invest 10 levels into wild shape with only 2 spellcasting levels to show for it, but in return, you have 5 levels of full BaB and MUCH better Wild Shape than a 20th level Druid. In some ways, your Wild Shape is better than Shapechange (Wilding Clasps, NW bonuses, speech, no HD limit), Of course, you'll have to wait until level 25 to get your 9th level spells.

[brujon]

Nature's Warrior 4 is something i'm probably going to shoot for, because the bonuses are really worth it, and i'm not going to be losing my 9th level spells for it. MOMF i don't think is really worth it because i'm effectively giving up a LOT of spellcasting in exchange for my Wildshape to look a bit more like Shapechange. If i'm going to be needing exotic forms, i'm better off going straight up Shapechanging or using Polymorph, instead of giving up a lot of versatility from my spells. Warshaper is really nice, and i'm torn between going Warshaper or Nature's Warrior, because of Morphic Immunities.

Straight up druid till 17 isn't optimal. Lion of Talisid, a PrC from BoED, gives me 10/10 spellcasting, and progresses wildshape and animal companion. I also gain Scent, Pounce and a SoD for the capstone.

So i was thinking, Druid 6/Lion of Talisid 5/Nature's Warrior 2/Lion of Talisid 5/Nature's Warrior 2 or Druid 6/Lion of Talisid 10/Druid +1/Warshaper 3

Since i'm going to use Exalted rules anyway, is Sacred Vow + Vow of Poverty worth it for a druid? I know most classes don't benefit from it, but i see many druid builds use it.

What you guys think?

[Rebel7284]

VOP usability depends on what level you'll be playing at.

At low levels it's pretty good since it saves money on wilding clasps and gives bonuses compatible to the equipment. 
As you get into the mid-high levels, items catch up VERY quickly though.
Also, many exalted feats are sub-par.

If you think the campaign will go above level 7-8, I would most certainly suggest NOT using VOP.

[zioth]

Also depends on the wealth level of the campaign. VoP is extremely powerful in a low-wealth campaign.

You're still a druid, so you won't be underpowered compared to other characters in the party, and VoP can be fun. Don't do it if there's any chance of getting to epic levels though. Giving up those +5 inherrent bonuses and magic items worth millions of gold will hurt a lot.

If you do want VoP, you might consider Monk/Druid/Fist of the Forest. A monk's unarmed strikes (especially with Improved Natural Attack) are better than those of most Shapechange forms, and the wis+con to AC is really nice when wildshaped. In many forms, your dex will be very low, but wis and con will be high.

[Tshern]

Master of Many Forms 3: Changing as a move action is nice, especially when combined with Warshaper 5. WS5/MoMF3 is like mini-shapechange. And don't forget that with Wilding Clasps, you can wear magic items in Wild Shape. You can't do that with Shapechange.

Or spent 18k to buy a Mantle of the Beast and wild shape as a swift action for the rest of your career?

[Mooncrow]

VoP is pretty much never ever worth more than not taking it.  There are some edge cases where that's not true, but while druids don't get hit quite as hard as some, it's still very much a downgrade in most scenarios. 

[brujon]

VoP is pretty much never ever worth more than not taking it.  There are some edge cases where that's not true, but while druids don't get hit quite as hard as some, it's still very much a downgrade in most scenarios.

Yeah, well... I know that's the case, but then again, i don't think the DM will be letting us cherry pick equipment anyways, and it'll probably be a low wealth campaign. It's in any case pretty flavorful and he already gave the OK to Sainthood eventually. If the campaign hits the epic levels, then it's going to take years to reach that point, at which point i'll be able to discuss a power bump with the DM.

I didn't find Fist of The Forest that much impressive. It's a nice boost to saves, Wis to AC, and some limited unarmed damage progression, but that's it. More wildshapes and casting per day are better, no?

[Tshern]

I didn't find Fist of The Forest that much impressive. It's a nice boost to saves, Wis to AC, and some limited unarmed damage progression, but that's it. More wildshapes and casting per day are better, no?

Yes. Had to super-emphasise the most important part.

[Rebel7284]

It's Con to AC, not Wis.  Con can get pretty high easily.

[Mooncrow]

It's Con to AC, not Wis.  Con can get pretty high easily.

Druids care a lot more about Wis, though.

(of course, wildclasp on a monk's belt + fist of the forest isn't a bad thing either^^)

[Tshern]

It's Con to AC, not Wis.  Con can get pretty high easily.

Druids care a lot more about Wis, though.

(of course, wildclasp on a monk's belt + fist of the forest isn't a bad thing either^^)

Add in a friendly Incantatrix and super-boosted Owl's insight for extra hilarity. Then Bite of the Werebear. And Shapechange.

[zioth]

Master of Many Forms 3: Changing as a move action is nice, especially when combined with Warshaper 5. WS5/MoMF3 is like mini-shapechange. And don't forget that with Wilding Clasps, you can wear magic items in Wild Shape. You can't do that with Shapechange.

Or spent 18k to buy a Mantle of the Beast and wild shape as a swift action for the rest of your career?

Nice. I didn't know about that item. That will change my build plans.

[brujon]

So, if i'm to maintain 9th level spells, these are my choices, apart from Druid6/Lion of Talisid10 [This is too yummy to pass up, and i'm exalted anyway, so...]

Druid +1/Fist of the Forest 3 -> Gives me Con to AC [Which can get pretty ridonkulous with bite of X plus whatever else], a little bit of oomph to natural attacks, and a rage-like ability. Also Full bab and all good saves. [Prereqs are things i'd probably go for anyway.]

Nature's Warrior 5 -> I can boost 3 of: grapple, ac, damage, enhancement bonus[+6 enhancement pre-epic with VOP]. It also gives me 5 more BAB, and it progresses my wildshape, so i don't miss out on Huge Wildshape and Elemental Shape. [2nd Easiest to qualify for.]

Warshaper 3 -> Gives me immunity to critical and immunity to stunning, the ability to manifest natural attacks on forms that don't normally have them[this is huge], and most importantly, it gives me reach like a spiked chain for every natural weapon. [Auto-qualify by level 6]

MoMF 3 -> Gives me more options on Wildshape, and also gives me Wildshape as a move action. And +3 wildshape uses. Also gives me Natural Spell without having to take the feat[But has 2 useless feats as a prereq]

So in a nutshell: Nature's Warrior is the one that gives me the most BAB out of all, so i'm hitting things more consistently. And it also progresses my Wildshape, so i can use Huge and Elemental. But the reach on Warshaper is just so damn good, and it's SUPER easy to qualify, doesn't even require a feat, the immunities are just icing on the cake. MoMF is nice, but i'm only getting Humanoid/Monstrous Humanoid/Giant shapes. How huge is this? I'm not sure. Finally, fist of the forest. Gives me arguably more damage than Nature's Warrior because of damage dice advancement, and combo's awesomely with Bite of X + Shapechange.

At this point, i just don't know which one of these options is better. All these options give me equal casting (17 caster levels + 9th level spells).

[Rebel7284]

You really only need 1 level of Fist of the Forest.  The other levels can be one of the other classes.  How about the 1 level dip into sacred exorcist for DMM persist so your bite of the X lasts all day?