Author Topic: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!  (Read 36862 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2013, 02:04:17 PM »
Class looking great now, and if you want something for 4th level, I suggest pushing the turn undead to there.

Now into the feats:

Desire Dream-Seems fine.

Transcendent-Instead of automatically removing the cooldown, how about simply reducing it to 1 round?

Loyal Undead-I remember you saying you would add some Wis and/or gold requirements in the PS campaign. Seems like it didn't happen.

Three Treasures-At will etherealness multiple levels before most people  has proper defenses against it? As one of the multiple great options of the feat?

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2013, 02:32:20 PM »
I thought that for the 4th level effect I'd swipe stuff around. Strongly considering to remove the death immunity of the shinkaisen and put it there as a bonus to saves against Death and Fear. Supposedly hermits manage to survive the envoys of the shinigami for so long because they resist their usual 'instant win' introduction attacks, which are fear and death based.

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Transcendent-Instead of automatically removing the cooldown, how about simply reducing it to 1 round?
Sounds good.

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Loyal Undead-I remember you saying you would add some Wis and/or gold requirements in the PS campaign. Seems like it didn't happen.
I think I was supposed to remove the Wis to Hp for the undead minion that was there. And I did indeed remove it. The gold component memory you have is probably related to the idea that an undead minion does not start with any wealth, unlike the typical cohort. But perhaps my own memory fails me.

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Three Treasures-At will etherealness multiple levels before most people  has proper defenses against it? As one of the multiple great options of the feat?
Yeah that won't do.
Not sure what to put for 'Humility'. I'll have to sleep on it.

Edit: Made the Sheltered Soul ability for 4th level. Specified that it is lost if the Hermit becomes an Ex-Hermit, as was intended.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:28:50 PM by Anomander »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2014, 01:35:17 AM »
Currently working on Desire Drive when I've time to spare for it but I thought I'd mention that True Administrator is finished.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2014, 05:04:13 PM »
*Cracks fingers*

Ok, this one is due for some time.

But before that, I must say I finally noticed the subtle irony you had hidden in this. The poster "hermit" is actually a disguised oni seeking to corrupt the few remaining human champions of Gensokyo. The special abilities are not given by Taoism or meditation or harmony, but by her own demonic nature. Clever. Very clever. Byakuren was right all along!

Divine Spirits' Universe-Level 1 stance allows you to fully ignore miss chances. I remember having heard you had nerfed this. I clearly misheard. And new resource management. Boy, you do love those, don't you? And then uber tremorsense (detects floating/flying stuff through walls) when you trance. Which you'll always be doing if you picked the feats. Which you picked.

Anyway ignoring miss chances just by succeeding on a listen check (which you'll probably do because you have all the reasons to buff listen sky high and people don't invest that much in move silently) basically means this is See Invisibibility+half Power True Seeing. Kinda situational, but completely shuts down anybody that relies in miss chances by relying on a check people aren't expected to make.

Strongly suggest making a more gradual thing, like reducig the enemy miss chance by your Listen check. Also reducing the uber tremorsense range. 5 feet per IL would still be pretty damn good.

Wishful Soul of Desire
-Basically 1d10 per IL on area, reflex for half. This will murderize mooks even if they save, and everything else will be taking heavy damage. You could remove the "haha take half even if you save" and it would still easily be the best lv 1 nuke maneuver around.

Or you can just use this between battles and then open combat with 2d8 area damage per IL for half, which will basically auto-murderize everybody but the fighter, the barbarian and the dwarf cleric (and even those may bite it if they fail their reflex save).

And friendly-fire free by default, so zero drawbacks. Sure you spend all your desire in one go, but there won't be anyone left alive to complain.

Tenfold Listening-
Moar unique resource management! Not sure how good this is before checking the other maneuvers though.


Honor "Colors of Twelve Levels"
-If a martial boost is lasting more than 1 round, there may better be a very good reason for that. "Grant the whole party immunities on demand at 2nd level" is not one. Heck, immunity to Daze alone is uber and cheesy as hell (spam celerity and friends all day long).

Secret Treasure "Armillary Sphere of Ikaruga-dera"
-Says it's third level. Also I guess it's not OP per se, but risks slowing the game down to a crawl because some five new battle areas are gonna raise a lot of positioning and line of sight questions. Wait, although you can't trap enemies inside, you can still use it to block corridors and whatnot, so kinda imba in low level dungeons when you can get a pretty sturdy obstacle on demand to divine the opposition.

Thunder Arrow "Gagouji's Cyclone"
-Stance link is Thunder Rites "Children of the Gods", that I didn't see anywhere before. Lolwhut? Sonic arrows sounds lovely for ignoring DR and destroying terrain.

Wait, also 2nd level dispel. That can end mystic terrain properties with a lousy DC 20.

I'm seeing a pattern here. You have to cram at least 3 effects on each maneuver. That's a really bad design idea, because either you have 3 lousy effects, or it'll just end up being straight up better than maneuvers of similar levels.

Influence of the East-Barrier that blocks all enemy attacks while allowing your party to shoot back at leisure? You know it's tradition to allow saves for "lol, you can't touch us now" effects, right? Only question is whetever you open with this or the 1st level strike for 10d8 area damage at 5th level.

Shukuchi Cape-Swift action teleport at 5th level... Well, at least the range is pretty limited. Got bigger fishes to fry here.

Tao Sign "Heavenly Ways in the Palm of One's Hand"
-Like its smaller cousin, use this during rest to better nova in the next battle.

Benign Rain from the Shining One
-The laser range increment is a lie. Also full attack on everything at range is extremely good by itself, the bonus damage is overkill (or instead make it just one attack).

Honor "Ranks of Twelve Levels"
-Same problems as its little brother.

Light Sign "Halo of the Guze Kannon"-Gah why do the multi-target long duration boosts keep appearing?

Thunder Rites "Children of the Gods"-Oh, here it is that other stance. And it's basically an uber version of the 8th level stance that demands a feat (improved DCs, free deafen and extra damage, moar improved DCs, and can customize the arrows in the fly). At 4th level. I could've sworn you had said you had nerfed this school a bit. I clearly failed my listen check, because it's just getting crazier and crazier in power levels terms.

Discernment "Laser of Seventeen Articles"
-Either the 3rd level cleric buff/heal on demand or the uber multiplier nuke would be extremely powerful, together it's just OP. Also you should follow your own advice and add a clause to prevent you from dragging around a colossal greablade you can't wield but still combos with the maneuver for even more obscene damage.

Hermit Sign "Taoist of the Land of the Rising Sun"-F*** you undeads. Because normal turn/rebuke as an immediate action while still benefiting from the extra AC and saves clearly would be too mainstream.

Secret Treasure "Prince Shoutoku's Out-of-place Artifact”-Geez, doesn't your poster character has a missing arm? What the hell is a maneuver that recovers lost limbs as a swift+standard doing here? But nevermind that, main problem again is long-duration boost meaning you can always keep it on all the time. At least it doesn't affect the whole party at the same time. It still heals basically any problem in anyone ever as a swift action, which is bad at 5th level.

And that's it for now, the higher level maneuvers can wait until the lower ones are properly taken care of. I feel like this is gonna take a long time...


And I must say you may've as well made a class around this instead of a scool. It has its special resource that doesn't interact with anything else, it has a single basic stance that it's linked to every single maneuver  (and the other stance specifically demands it) so it's the one you'll always be using, and the maneuvers are mostly useless if you're not in said special stance. Then stuff like greater save DCs than usual all over the place.

One of the biggest selling points of ToB schools is that you can mix and combine stuff betwen schools. This completely eliminates that, and may as well be its own isolated subsystem. It's kinda the same problem you're going with your darkness school, where you have a bunch of uber maneuvers that get directly more uber just by having more maneuvers of that school readied, meaning you're actively punishing yourself if you dare to take maneuvers from another school.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 05:10:58 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2014, 05:29:58 PM »
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When a Listen check to hear a creature is succeeded, you pinpoint the location of the creature you heard without penalties and ignore miss chances despite any ability or effect that prevents detection. You can also easily listen and understand ten creatures’ conversations at the same time, if you pay attention to them.

And... I have to agree this is completely ridiculous. Pimp your listen check; behold perfect radar. 50' away through a wall is +20, but who's going to be sneaking that far away? You've got it linking to 'ignores all miss chances', too (why can you without flaw bypass the miss chances of an Epic God, by the way?). Rather than... I don't know, miss chances explicitly relying on sight.

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One of the biggest selling points of ToB schools is that you can mix and combine stuff betwen schools. This completely eliminates that, and may as well be its own isolated subsystem. It's kinda the same problem you're going with your darkness school, where you have a bunch of uber maneuvers that get directly more uber just by having more maneuvers of that school readied, meaning you're actively punishing yourself if you dare to take maneuvers from another school.

I dunno, I've never been a fan of mixing the schools. I like being able to afford skillpoint variety, and I'm bad at focusing on more than one thing at a time (also, I don't think I've ever used a Venerable Battlefield maneuver)

... reminds me to play Alice a Doll Judgement Youkai Magician at some point.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2014, 05:37:49 PM »

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One of the biggest selling points of ToB schools is that you can mix and combine stuff betwen schools. This completely eliminates that, and may as well be its own isolated subsystem. It's kinda the same problem you're going with your darkness school, where you have a bunch of uber maneuvers that get directly more uber just by having more maneuvers of that school readied, meaning you're actively punishing yourself if you dare to take maneuvers from another school.

I dunno, I've never been a fan of mixing the schools. I like being able to afford skillpoint variety, and I'm bad at focusing on more than one thing at a time (also, I don't think I've ever used a Venerable Battlefield maneuver)
Keyword being "can". You can specialize in most schools, yes, and indeed the tactical feats kinda reflect that. But this goes way to the other extreme, where most of the maneuvers effects are tied to having a special resource and mechanic that are tied to a single stance, meaning they become crippled if you use them with a stance of any other school.

... reminds me to play Alice a Doll Judgement Youkai Magician at some point.
I'm preparing a new 20th level campaign in case you missed it. Care to join with a mage bred in the lower planes? :p

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2014, 01:13:33 AM »
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Thanks a lot! I really appreciate.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2014, 08:22:04 AM »
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The poster "hermit" is actually a disguised oni seeking to corrupt the few remaining human champions of Gensokyo.
A disguised oni; yes.

An hermit; yes. She seized the secret of longevity and followed the hermit practices to pose as one to be closer to humans. She is titled the One Armed, Horned Hermit. The title isn't form their perspective since they do not know she has horns and that her second arm is empty, so her being an hermit is correct as well, no matter how other characters might interpret her actions. She's an oni with at least one level in hermit.
"I never meant for this to happen... but anyway, becoming a hermit was a religious act?"
Komachi inquires about her pretending to be a hermit, which are personal reasons given to Miko.
"As expected of a real hermit." "But my goal in being a hermit is different form yours. I wanted to become closer to people."

Seeking to corrupt remaining human champions; when? I recall her mostly trying to actually motive Reimu to be less corrupted. She doesn't follow the same policies as the Taoist group, which explain a different mentality (though that applied even within the Taoists. Seiga and Miko are very different) but she follows hermit practices.
I'd put her as kind of a Neutral Goodish hermit since she has her own agenda but goes out of her way to be friends with people and help them. Miko is devoted and clearly Lawful Good while Seiga would be at best Chaotic Neutral, possibly Chaotic Evil. Not sure about the other two.
Reimu's sacred orb disagrees with you. It burns the fake oni's arm with but a touch, revealing its unholy nature. A fact that the oni hides from the shrine maiden.  Also that the oni can speak with bloodthirsty beasts, but the actual hermits can't doesn't say a lot on its favor either.

As for its acts of corruption so far:
-Preventing Reimu from figuring out the true purpose of her shrine.
-Kidnapping Reimu and filling her head with nonsense, preventing her from doing her shrine duties (aka extermination). Luckily Reimu snapped out of that one pretty fast.
-Covering up for Yukari's "kidnap humans from the outside world to use as snacks" project.
-Making Reimu look like an idiot to the human villagers with the whole "dragon egg" incident.
-Seeking to sabotage Reimu in the religious war.
-Covering up for animals thirsty for human blood on their way to become youkais.


Miko is only "devoted" to those who obey her iron law. She herself says humans are but pets that need a proper master to control them. That Byakuren "Let's all get along" herself tried to keep Miko sealed up speaks volumes that the gender bender is up to no good either.


Byakuren is a case of her own since she could be seen as an heretic to even her own faith. Though her intentions aren't evil in intent, working toward the same goal that Reimu works on (though she denies it); working for Gensokyo to have harmony between youkai and humans.
More like Yukari keeping everything in  Gensokyo under her thumb. She's the one who's been pulling Reimu's strings for very long now. "Reimu, kill that human again and again and again and again...". "Reimu, go to hell". "Reimu, go to the moon". "Reimu, your celestial-craft shrine displeases me, I shall destroy it in its new opening day and have drunk oni build you a new one, just in case somebody had doubts about who's really in charge here". Heck, in the manga, Yukari blatantly tells she considers humans inherently evil and that she's got a spy network all over the human village to keep them under watch.

But Reimu's true purpose is to exterminate youkai. It's just that she's laaaazzzzyyyy. And properly exterminating a fully fledged youkai is no easy task. Yukari takes advantage of that to use the Hakurei as a mafia enforcer when other youkais start getting too frisky. In Forbidden Scrollery we see Reimu (and Marisa) a lot more willing to go for the seal/kill with lesser youkai.


Anyway now to the maneuvers, seems like you haven't edited any changes.
1st level stance.
Remember to reduce to 5 feet/IL.

Wishful Soul of Desire
I had meant to limit level 1 burst by making it impossible to enter Trance Mode before HD 4  with a minimum key skill ranks requirement in the How does it Work but I forgot that it is possible to get the needed spirits via Tenfold Listening. I could revamp things by putting a cap on maximum number of spirits that can be used at a time to half initiator level or the equivalent in skill ranks in the key skill. That would ensure only a level 20 character can use all 10 spirits in a single maneuver. Then remove the spirit cap without Trance bit. I'd just change this maneuver's linked trance effect to something else that reflects this change. Like use 1 more spirit than your maximum spirit per maneuver.
I guess that works.

Honor "Colors of Twelve Levels"
Its the same maneuver as before, though I added the actual colors as per the official ranks of the era and actually reduced the duration from what it was.
I could put that duration as a maximum that requires concentration, minimum 1. Similar system for other similar boosts.
Or you could leave the duration at 1 round, in which case is still pretty good, because if nothing else you can use it on the run to remove bad status effects from the entire party as a swift action.

Or if you want something that's always on, make it a stance.

It cannot help with celerity type spells since all effects that grant you a disadvantage (or other form of sacrifice) cannot be bypassed for the effect to work since it is part of the effect. Similar to how spells inflicting you ability drain/damage/burn cannot be spammed because of an immunity.
Hellfire warlock disagrees with you. Hellfireblast drains your Con, and has a clause to prevent spam in case you're immune or lack a Con score at all.

So no, in D&D, by default, having immunity to something makes you immune to effects you inflict upon yourself. This is not MTG where costs must always be paid. This is D&D and half the exploits out there are based on ignoring harmful costs for abilities.


Secret Treasure "Armillary Sphere of Ikaruga-dera"
Aye. Part of the corrections that didn't save. Now I wonder what else didn't. >_<
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Wait, although you can't trap enemies inside, you can still use it to block corridors and whatnot, so kinda imba in low level dungeons
Agreed. I could make it very brittle until it has a certain amount of spirits spent into it. With the change in spirit per maneuver, it wouldn't last long at low level. If the duration is too long for an impromptu wall all the same, I could further reduce the duration to 1 extra round per 2 spirits or more. Otherwise I could make it a higher level maneuver and try not to affect the pattern I have in the order of the maneuvers too much.
This seems like it should be higher level yes.

Thunder Arrow "Gagouji's Cyclone"
The linked stance effect is the stance swap from the maneuver of the same name that is level 4 maneuver.
So its minimum IL 7, and between Trance use you must re-enter a stance, recover both this maneuver and Thunder Rites (which can only be recovered after leaving it) then initiate Thunder Rites to be able to trance this maneuver on the following round unless two swift actions can be used per round. The dispel is a level 4 effect that can thus normally be used once every 3 rounds. If they have the feat or roll less than 4.
Then, you have to actually hit that ranged attack or its all wasted and you leave your stance and did all that for nothing. There are better ways and maneuvers for a quicker way to dispel things out of combat at the same minimum level.
The dispel thingy is still imba in situations where you have ancient area magics and you just spam it until you roll high to purge the millenia-old effect that nobody else could break. Because it sets the DC to a measly 20.

Influence of the East
I'll have it affect allies too. This reminds me I have to add the light descriptor to all the light effect maneuvers.
I tested it in-game and I'll have line area effects bypass it the ranged attack block. Though I'm tempted to switch it around and have the base effect prevent all mundane ranged weapon attacks, then magic ones for X spirits, area attacks except lines for Y spirits and the have the trance also block movement, then everything else for 10 spirits.
Why do you must always go for absolutes? Why not penalty to attack rolls/DCs or reducing damage?

Tao Sign "Heavenly Ways in the Palm of One's Hand"
Not sure how using it between fights help since you can just start the fight in Trance mode instead. This one feels more like something to benefit from during battle, and mostly if you do not have the feat to enter Trance mode faster.
"allows you to trance a True Administrator maneuver even if you are not in Trance mode". There, you don't lose anythin for using it betwee-battles, and further screws up the whole trancing balancing, because you no longer need to trance in order to trance so you can trance while you don't trance.

Benign Rain from the Shining One
I don't get the part about the laser range increments.
The text says "The ray of light has a range increment" and stops there.

It isn't a full-attack on everything at range but a full attack that can be done with all the targets within the cylinder as possible targets. Meaning you could, say, make a single fullattack with a sword as if everyone in the area was adjacent to you. Then there is bonus damage.
It's still fullattack++, a bit early for that I believe.

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Gah why do the multi-target long duration boosts keep appearing?
Those maneuvers are actually the same as they were before but weaker. I reused them since they were Miko's. They either had a better duration or more possible targets back then.
Yeah, and the experience I've earned since then shows that one should try to keep spammable multi-target long-duration effects to a minimum. So again, either 1 round, stance, or single target+concentration of sorts.

Thunder Rites "Children of the Gods"
This maneuver is actually exactly as it was back then. I'll scratch the custom arrow enhancements on Trance. It doesn't need it.
Very well.

Discernment "Laser of Seventeen Articles"
I agree I'll have to be careful on my wording to avoid making it possible to carry weapons you cannot use normally for effects relying on the weapon you keep sheathed.
Can maybe reduce the Trance damage maybe to the skill modifier.
What about the part where this is still absurd utility and nuke all packed into one?

Hermit Sign "Taoist of the Land of the Rising Sun"
This one is the same as before as well.
It doesn't allow you to make a turn/rebuke attempt at undeads as an immediate action. It makes it so your stance allows you to make a better turn/rebuke if you already have that ability until you use another maneuver.
Very well.

Secret Treasure "Prince Shoutoku's Out-of-place Artifact”
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Geez, doesn't your poster character has a missing arm?
For the Hermit, yes. Not True Administrator.
It wouldn't cure anything until IL 20 now so I guess that takes care of that. To mitigate the duration I could have the spirits invested into it be unrecoverable, so you cannot just recover them after using it. That and make it so that you suffer any damage dealt to the reliquary if it is damaged.
See, Miko's a bitch after all for not offering to heal her fellow disguised oni recover its lost arm. :p

However Miko explicitly said she can't talk with animals, so I guess this is actually the Fake Administrator school. Clever again, deception everywhere, worthy indeed of the one-armed oni!

Now from a crunch point of view, seriously this one should be a stance as well. It already is a stance in everything but name. You gain fast healing and immunities and become super healer dude. And it already lasts forever as long as you carry a pagoda around.

Also has a Reflex save for half that I'm not very sure what's it meant for.

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And I must say you may've as well made a class around this instead of a school. It has its special resource that doesn't interact with anything else, it has a single basic stance that it's linked to every single maneuver  (and the other stance specifically demands it) so it's the one you'll always be using, and the maneuvers are mostly useless if you're not in said special stance. Then stuff like greater save DCs than usual all over the place.
Besides the addition of the spirit resource, its pretty much the same as before. I could make a monster class synergize with it the way vampire blood charges can be invested into SftD but I don't remember any super Taoist-like monster. Though perhaps one based on attracting spirits could do. Not sure I'll feel like making one though. The rest of the mechanics was around before I revamped it and then "Overall the stuff seems cool and original". Stuff like greater DC than usual is only for the Trance effects. At least I hope.
Them being granted to maneuvers by default started here with Chinese Star.
Chinese Star gets away with some stuff because the author for that one wasn't cramming hundreds of effects in those maneuvers.


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One of the biggest selling points of ToB schools is that you can mix and combine stuff between schools. This completely eliminates that, and may as well be its own isolated subsystem. It's kinda the same problem you're going with your darkness school, where you have a bunch of uber maneuvers that get directly more uber just by having more maneuvers of that school readied, meaning you're actively punishing yourself if you dare to take maneuvers from another school.
It is a selling point of the ToB disciplines system but one of the selling points of the Tohou Battle Grimoire is that most disciplines offer enough maneuvers at each level to focus on a single one. Which goes well with the notion that most Tohou characters only use their own spellcards and would thus only use their one discipline.
These maneuvers can be used by themselves but the stance is indeed meant to encourage you to use tao maneuvers instead of something else. As you said, the maneuvers become mostly useless if you aren't in the required stance but I feel they can still be useful for a discipline dabbler. Otherwise, I could broaden ease of mixing disciplines by changing Desire Dream to have it work with other disciplines instead of Dream Battle specifically and a slight nerf to the tao synergy with the chosen discipline by fixing the distance to 10-ft. instead of 10-ft. per stance level.
[/quote]
A feat that allows other stance's to trance... Should be ok I guess. Kinda like Doll Judgement got an option for using dolls in other stances.

Thanks a lot! I really appreciate.
...It's not like I like Miko's theme or anything!

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2014, 09:49:46 PM »
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Anyway now to the maneuvers, seems like you haven't edited any changes.
Good call. I had made the changes but didn't post them. Serves me right for having something like 3 tabs for it and not updating the right one. I just hope I didn't undo other modifications.

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« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 09:14:18 PM by Anomander »

Offline CrazyYanmega

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2016, 01:31:29 AM »
"Secret Treasure "Armillary Sphere of Ikaruga-dera" is in the Hermit 2 list of maneuvers, but says it is Hermit 3

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #90 on: April 09, 2016, 07:20:51 AM »
Fixed. Thanks!
Also, I have the vivid memory of having written Hermit class feats somewhere. I recall mostly what they granted to but I don't see them in this page so I guess I never put them up. I'll check it up sometime.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 08:32:54 AM by Anomander »

Offline CrazyYanmega

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2016, 09:47:03 PM »
Fixed. Thanks!
Also, I have the vivid memory of having written Hermit class feats somewhere. I recall mostly what they granted to but I don't see them in this page so I guess I never put them up. I'll check it up sometime.

If you could get those ASAP, that would be great. We get to take up to two flaws.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #92 on: April 10, 2016, 03:41:57 AM »
There ya go! I don't think it needs much class-specific feats though those should cover it.

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2016, 08:34:25 PM »
What maneuvers are capable of affecting Incorporeal and which would not?

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2016, 02:30:08 AM »
I forgot the usual disclaimer that the maneuvers are supernatural abilities. Supernatural abilities can affect incorporeal creatures by default but it is its become common here to have only a 50% chance to affect them anyway. Shouldn't be an issue at all while trancing.

Offline CrazyYanmega

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #95 on: May 06, 2016, 05:38:36 PM »
I recommend nerfing Dantian Focus. You can get Fast Healing 6 by level 5. Maybe make it so that the effects of Dantian Focus only work in-combat and must be activated in combat?

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2016, 09:09:36 PM »
It would be Fast Healing 5 since the only way to reach Fast Healing 6 (7, actually) would be to spend two feats on the Dantian Focus ability, which would cap your bonus at your Hermit level.

Limiting it to Combat only wouldn't really change much since people would start encounters with random harmless stuff to heal.

I personally don't see it as that much of an advantage since the hermit may only have one dantian focus ability active at a time until class level 16.
Out of combat, there isn't much of a difference between Fast Healing 20 and Fast Healing 1, either way you can get back to full by the next fight.
As for in combat, an hermit with more than one DF is likely to not start a fight under Transcendental Vigor since there are more interesting ones to have while out of combat and on the first round of a fight, so it would typically be activated during a fight anyway.

As for the amount at that level (5), typically any other build with fast healing by that level would have it at 2.
Now the difference is that most of these other sources of fast healing don't have to be activated when you need it. So to get a fast healing ability that is 3 points higher than the norm at that level you need a feat, to take a minor action to activate it and then it would be taking the spot of other things Dantian focus could be helping with, such as taking down the enemies with the offensive options. To me it feels all right.

Would you feel that replacing a level's Dantian Focus ability with Fast Healing equal to half the Hermit class level and removing Transcendental Vigor would be more balanced?
Because the way I see it, it would be possible to replace every Dantian Focus ability with a permanent passive effect that are all in effect at once and give similar advantages but with a lower output and it would likely end with a much stronger hermit. I prefer the idea of the tactical decision of figuring out what you need to put on for a given encounter.

Taking that into account, if you think the Transcendental Vigor DF needs a nerf I'll figure something out.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 09:14:56 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2016, 09:26:53 PM »
I don't think it's going to hugely make a difference regardless of the amount, though 5 HP a round at level five might finally have combat relevance, since the only way a martial adept will care about HP or maneuver expenditure (outside of the Forbidden Schools here) is going to be if the break between is so small that there's no time to do much of anything out of combat.

Fast Healing 1 is 10 HP per minute. Without being rushed, that's 100 HP in ten minutes, which is perfectly reasonable to comb a room. The amount doesn't matter.

Offline CrazyYanmega

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2016, 12:47:56 PM »
It would be Fast Healing 5 since the only way to reach Fast Healing 6 (7, actually) would be to spend two feats on the Dantian Focus ability, which would cap your bonus at your Hermit level.

Dantian Focus at 2nd and 5th level grants 4 points of bonus. 3rd level feat Greater Dantian Power gives another 2 points.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2016, 02:56:43 PM »
Don't forget that the feat to get an extra DF has Dantian Power has a feat requirement.
If you pick Dantian Power, the bonus becomes capped by your Hermit class level, so it wouldn't be higher than 5 at 5th level.