How many daily spell slots do Sorcerers need to be competitive with Wizards?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Let's avoid the Sorcerer vs. Wizard class debates (meaning which is better) and get to the point.  Sorcerers are meant to be competitive with Wizards because Sors get more spells cast per day.  Specialist Wizards get similar spells per day and Focused Specialist Wizards get the same.

[Solo]

All of them.

[Unbeliever]

After a few levels Wizards don't run out of spells.  There are many ways to avoid doing so -- iconic D&D items like Staves, etc. are only the most obvious, and it really just doesn't come up all that often.  This is well-known.

So, the idea of making Sorcerers competitive with Wizards b/c they gain a ton of spells per day is a non-starter. 

Sorcerers are also supposed to have an edge on Wizards due to on the fly casting flexibility.  But, by the end of the 3.5 line there were a number of ways for prepared spellcasters to do the same.

I've personally kind of cooled on D&D's approach to prepared spellcasting -- it's entirely too gamist to me and is at odds with the way I like to conceive of spellcasters.  But, I could see for legacy and game enjoyment reasons having a system that supports both spontaneous and prepared spellcasters.  And, I don't think the things that let prepared spellcasters add a little bit of "spontaneity" to their casting should go away.  So, I think something like a Sorcerer needs to have class abilities that make up for what a thoughtful player can do with the Wizard's spellcasting mechanic.  Dread Necromancers and Beguilers had the right idea, basically. 


P.S.:  again, Endrarie, what is the point of these threads?  Either build a system more or less from the ground up or don't.  Endless requests for slight tweaks to the 3.5 system aren't getting anyone anywhere, as indicated by the fact that you've been asking them literally for years and have, as far as I can tell, nothing to show for it. 

[carnivore]

it is not Spell Slots per day that is needed .... it is Spells Known that needs to be boosted ... adding even 1 Spell Known per Spell Level would be a huge boost, IMHO

 

[carnivore]

actually now that i think about it ... why not simply allow Sorcerors to Gain both Bonus Spells per day AND Spells Known for high Charisma attribute scores.

 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

  ... did this just happen?

Carnivore proposed a houserule, instead of a world shaking build ?!


  ... I knew last night was crazy, but I had no idea ...

[Tr011]

actually now that i think about it ... why not simply allow Sorcerors to Gain both Bonus Spells per day AND Spells Known for high Charisma attribute scores.

 

While level usually stays the same, Charisma doesn't. But spells known should be.

[ImperatorK]

Maybe Sorcerers should gain a # of Spells Known equal to their Cha score (minimum 1, double that for 0 level) each time they level up? And when they permanently gain a higher Cha score they retroactively gain more Spells Known for earlier levels next time they level up?

[carnivore]

Charisma would simply reflect the force of Personality of the Sorceror and thus his ability to tap the Magic Potential that he was born with, so as his Charisma grows so does his Spellcasting and he would be able to discover new spells to Cast.

not Game Breaking by any means .... but simply more on a level playing field with a Wizard

 

[SneeR]

Basing spells known on CHA is a hassle. If you let them chose a new spell whenever their CHA increases, what about temporary buffs? What about items worn? What counts as permanent in a game like this? Also, when their CHA gets drained and them bumps back up eventually, do they get to pick new spells known, or do they have to re-choose the spells they originally had?

I've thought about doing this for a psionic-style homebrew I thought up years ago, but it just turns into too much paperwork and potential for debating endlessly.

[zugschef]

i actually don't see the reason for delayed spellcasting. just let sorcerers and favored souls get their spell levels at odd numbers.

[ImperatorK]

Basing spells known on CHA is a hassle.

I'm just throwing an idea. Also there are things that are almost common sense on this boards, that's why I didn't go into detail. But if you insist...

If you let them chose a new spell whenever their CHA increases, what about temporary buffs?

Um, no. Not whenever their Cha increases. When they level up.
What about temporary buffs? I thought it is pretty obvious, considering that I'm talking about permanent Cha inceases, that only permanent Cha counts.

What about items worn? What counts as permanent in a game like this?

Depends. In my games permanent would mean anything that doesn't go away after a time or with a dispel. And I encourage using this "definition". So base Cha plus racial bonus (templates too) plus level increases plus Wish/Tome increases plus permanent increases from classes and feats are a-okay. Spells, even permanency'd, aren't okay. As a Minmaxboards veteran you should easily figure that out yourself.

Also, when their CHA gets drained and them bumps back up eventually, do they get to pick new spells known, or do they have to re-choose the spells they originally had?

Is it a permanent Cha loss? Anything that's not permanent is irrelevant. So if the Sorcerer would permanently lose Cha in some way and didn't get the lost Cha back he would have to unlearn/forget some spells, but if later he would increase his Cha in some other way, he would be able to learn new spells again.

[veekie]

Removing delayed spellcasting would do a lot to make them competitive, from that basis alone, other optimizations can be generated. Delayed spellcasting just breaks the deal.

[zugschef]

Removing delayed spellcasting would do a lot to make them competitive, from that basis alone, other optimizations can be generated. Delayed spellcasting just breaks the deal.

yup. just give them one additional spell per level, remove delayed spellcasting and remove that stupid no quicken spell house rule by skip williams.

[Endarire]

Let's assume we give every Sorcerer one effective Sorcerer level.  That keeps 'em even with Wizards and gives 'em an extra spell known or so.  Let's also assume spontaneously applying metamagic doesn't increase the cast time.  How do Wizards and Sorcerers fare?

(Let's also assume no 'extra' Sorcerer levels, like from Kobolds.)

[lianightdemon]

Above suggestions + making spellcraft skill either Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence based on the casters primary ability score. This lets them have their spellcraft as high as wizards can and helps at epic levels with epic spellcracking. (sorry Epic Spellcasting)

Give sorcerers more charisma based skills like Diplomacy and more skill points 4+int perhaps
Free Eschew materials and maybe some actual class features beyond 1st level.

[phaedrusxy]

This is starting to sound a lot like my houserules.

An alternate Sorcerer class is being used. It is not that different from the PHB sorcerer, so I will just list the  changes here. There may be slight modifications made to this in the future.
-class Skills: Add Intimidate and Diplomacy to the list. A sorcerer has a much stronger force of personality than most  other characters, and can learn to use this to get others to do what he wants.
-Spell progression (when he gets access to higher spell levels): Same as the wizard
-Leveling Benefits: As the sorcerer gains levels, he learns to cast his spells in new and strange ways. Sorcerers gain all  the benefits listed under the "Special" column in the Wu Jen class chart in the Oriental Adventures book.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I'm not interested in buffing high T2's. I'm interested in tearing them down. 

[veekie]

Let's assume we give every Sorcerer one effective Sorcerer level.  That keeps 'em even with Wizards and gives 'em an extra spell known or so.  Let's also assume spontaneously applying metamagic doesn't increase the cast time.  How do Wizards and Sorcerers fare?

(Let's also assume no 'extra' Sorcerer levels, like from Kobolds.)

Much, much closer. Now you have a direct trade off between strategic flexibility and tactical flexibility, which you can argue for either direction, barring use of divination to always obtain optimal spell loadouts.

[Captnq]

I got a question...

How many of you actually have seen people play Sorcerers and Wizards together?

I'm more of a, "What actually happens when you play" kinda guy. I've seen many a PC worked out on paper, but I doubt many of them were play tested.

You want to tweek Sorcerers? Here. Just let them change their spells around at each level. Or change one spell for every +1 chr bonus. Or something. It's getting stuck with a useless spell when you make poor choices that is the main problem. Honestly, the wizards all play the same way. They have two or three standardized spell memorization schemes, one is always, "Adventuring Spells" and then they tweek it depending on what info they have ahead of time. But for the most part, they don't change the spells they memorize very much.

In game play, the difference between Sorcerers and Wizards isn't that much. Heck, the Mage/cleric in the game hasn't changed his spell selection in... a year. Oh, out of combat, he changes his spells often, but that's because he makes so many magic items. When if comes to combat, he sticks with the same list, unless he has a specific problem he needs solving.

Frankly, when you get to over 15th, it's simply too much of a hassle to keep changing your spell lists. The players have jobs. They don't have a job like me where I sit around and watch people sleep, waiting for someone to listen to the voices and... well... let's just say I've never nodded off. Not once.

TO depends on TIME, something my players don't have.

Now, I did work out a world setting called Absu, where the gods were all eaten or evil and Wizards are controled by their familiars who are servants of elder evils, so there are no spellcasters who can memorize spells. Everyone is a spontanious spell caster or non-spellcasters and I hope to one day find some players for it. I think it might be neat to run.