How many daily spell slots do Sorcerers need to be competitive with Wizards?

[Solo]

Wizards are controled by their familiars who are servants of elder evils, so there are no spellcasters who can memorize spells.

Don't summon a familiar. Save yourself 100 gp.

[Endarire]

I've played Wizards and Sorcerers.  I've regretted playing a Sorcerer every time.

I prefer my skill points and Knowledge skills.  I prefer getting spells sooner.  I prefer being able to swap my spell loadouts.

I know that if I cared to, I'd make a wonderful Sorcerer.  He'd have all the trimmings of Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold with White Dragonspawn (LA bought off eventually) and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.  Then I'd be potent.  Then I'd be ahead of the curve.  Then, however, I'm not sure what I would do:  After all, I'm already the most knowledgeable player in my group by far and going this route is just asking to be nerfed or discriminated against.

[Unbeliever]

^ And so, as I've already said in this thread, Sorcerers need something other than what they already have (spells per day) to make someone playing them not suffer from "wizard envy."  A condition that is already all too common in D&D.

[FlaminCows]

The Sorcerer's problem isn't that he doesn't have enough spells per day, its that spells per day is a poor gauge of power. In practice one hardly ever runs out of spells after the first few levels.

A Wizard gets more spells to choose from (he can prepare according to what's needed in a day), he gets them earlier, and he also gets bonus feats and has a more useful associated ability score.

So make them equal, you'd need to let the Sorcerer gain higher-level spells earlier (or make it so wizards get them later, or both), give him some class features (or just bonus feats), and up his ability to adapt his spell list. That last one is troublesome because part of the point of playing a sorcerer is you don't have to muck about with spell choice and preparation, but perhaps letting the sorcerer freely switch out spells at level up would be enough. Oh, and fold Charisma into Wisdom to make two marginal ability scores into one useful one.

[Captnq]

Wizards are controled by their familiars who are servants of elder evils, so there are no spellcasters who can memorize spells.

Don't summon a familiar. Save yourself 100 gp.

Then the wizards with familiars are ordered by their dark masters to hunt you down and try to kill you. It was a nasty setting. All wizards were on the verge of falling into darkness and becoming slaves of elder evils.

Never did get to run it.

[SolEiji]

^ And so, as I've already said in this thread, Sorcerers need something other than what they already have (spells per day) to make someone playing them not suffer from "wizard envy."  A condition that is already all too common in D&D.

+1 this.

I rather like what pathfinder did here honestly, with the whole bloodlines thing adding an aspect to them that was something other than "wizards but spontaneous/weaker".

[Endarire]

How would things change if these factors are in play?

-Sorcerers and Wizards get new spell levels at the same character levels.  (1, 3, 5, 7...)
-Sorcerers get +1 spell known per spell level they can cast.
-Sorcerers can swap 1 spell known per day for another Sorcerer spell of the same level.
-Sorcerers and Wizards get the same class features (bonus feats, etc.)

[SolEiji]

How would things change if these factors are in play?

-Sorcerers and Wizards get new spell levels at the same character levels.  (1, 3, 5, 7...)
-Sorcerers get +1 spell known per spell level they can cast.
-Sorcerers can swap 1 spell known per day for another Sorcerer spell of the same level.
-Sorcerers and Wizards get the same class features (bonus feats, etc.)

Makes them more even.  They remain slightly dull as classes, but they're capable.

[Nicklance]

I have a question.

The wizard is more powerful by virtue of having access to virtually every spell available in the game, and is balanced by having less spells per day compared to the sorcerer, so in our attempt to try to give sorcerers slight more access to more spells, aren't we in comparison weakening the wizard's unique selling point?

I just feel that the whole "wizard envy" thing has led to an overcompensation to stuff the sorcerer with more class abilities than the wizard has. The wizard is virtually unchanged from 3rd Ed all the way to PF.

But still, if there's anything I want to change/add to the Sorcerer I would not give them more spell access. I'd instead give them the equivalent of "Spell Tricks" that are mini-metamagics and "altering effects" that lets the whole "embodiment of magic power" flavor play through.

The mechanics of these "spell tricks" would be similar in execution to a Magus' Arcana. In fact, "diligent study and scholarly research" flavor that wizards have could also entitle them to these "Spell Tricks" where they study the mechanism of spellcraft so well that they can tweak their learnt spells instead of following "off-the-rack" standard spells.

[Unbeliever]

^ I like the spell tricks, etc.  It's the sort of thing I've been advocating.  And, it's what PF has tried to do, I think, with their Bloodlines.  The problem is, most of their bloodlines suck.  I'd also like more class abilities for Wizards, but it's sort of a non-issue as they have a panoply of great prestige classes.  One easy fix is to give some of the less-used ones full casting and use that to paper over the Wizard's lack of class abilities.

The thing is, there is a huge gulf of difference between being able to cast an occasional spell when it's handy -- especially a great spell that lasts 24 hours or that you're going to persist or whatever -- and having to add it onto your spell list.  Anticipate Teleport is a great one for a Wizard to have access to.  No Sorcerer ever expends his spells known on it.  There are a fair number of these in D&D, at least, such as the Heart of X spells that last for hours on end.  That kind of cherry-picking is extremely powerful as there are a fair number of potent (arguably "broken") spells out there.  There's just a lot of spells in the game.

And, as we've noted in this thread, the one selling point the Sorc has -- lots of spells per day -- is meaningless after about 9th level.  And, there are whole classes of magic items that are iconic to D&D (wands, staves, etc.) that obviate it.

[zugschef]

the point of spontaneous casting is choosing on the fly which spell to cast in a certain situation. an 8th level sorcerer knows exactly 1(!) 4th level spell, so his ability to cast spontaneously is totally pointless for the highest spell level he can cast. that's what i call horrible game design, and that is why sorcerers should get an additional spell per level.

[Nicklance]

the point of spontaneous casting is choosing on the fly which spell to cast in a certain situation. an 8th level sorcerer knows exactly 1(!) 4th level spell, so his ability to cast spontaneously is totally pointless for the highest spell level he can cast. that's what i call horrible game design, and that is why sorcerers should get an additional spell per level.

The same argument can be brought up to justify another spell per level. When will it end?

Better to pull the sorcerer apart from the wizard well enough that it becomes apples and oranges. Make both classes really fun to play with less worry about what the other side feels or thinks.

^ I like the spell tricks, etc.  It's the sort of thing I've been advocating.  And, it's what PF has tried to do, I think, with their Bloodlines.  The problem is, most of their bloodlines suck.  I'd also like more class abilities for Wizards, but it's sort of a non-issue as they have a panoply of great prestige classes.  One easy fix is to give some of the less-used ones full casting and use that to paper over the Wizard's lack of class abilities.

The thing is, there is a huge gulf of difference between being able to cast an occasional spell when it's handy -- especially a great spell that lasts 24 hours or that you're going to persist or whatever -- and having to add it onto your spell list.  Anticipate Teleport is a great one for a Wizard to have access to.  No Sorcerer ever expends his spells known on it.  There are a fair number of these in D&D, at least, such as the Heart of X spells that last for hours on end.  That kind of cherry-picking is extremely powerful as there are a fair number of potent (arguably "broken") spells out there.  There's just a lot of spells in the game.

And, as we've noted in this thread, the one selling point the Sorc has -- lots of spells per day -- is meaningless after about 9th level.  And, there are whole classes of magic items that are iconic to D&D (wands, staves, etc.) that obviate it.

Which goes back to the point that simply packing the Sorcerer with more spells per day, or spells known isn't going to solve things. Wizards can get by from their lack of spells per day with wands and staves as you have mentioned, so the Spell Tricks idea or going full hog on what Bloodlines can do for you will help further distinguish Sorcerers and make them fun to play in their own right instead of constantly trying to tweak them to match a wizard.

[Kethrian]

the point of spontaneous casting is choosing on the fly which spell to cast in a certain situation. an 8th level sorcerer knows exactly 1(!) 4th level spell, so his ability to cast spontaneously is totally pointless for the highest spell level he can cast. that's what i call horrible game design, and that is why sorcerers should get an additional spell per level.

The same argument can be brought up to justify another spell per level. When will it end?

Better to pull the sorcerer apart from the wizard well enough that it becomes apples and oranges. Make both classes really fun to play with less worry about what the other side feels or thinks.

But consider what they did with the favoured soul class, which gets 3 spells known per level to start, and goes up to 6.  Is that really overpowered to give to sorcerers as well?  At least then they have enough of a variety in spell selection for every level of spell at all class levels to be able to be a spontaneous caster.  It's not stepping on a wizard's toes, it's allowing a sorcerer to do what his class is supposed to do.

^ I like the spell tricks, etc.  It's the sort of thing I've been advocating.  And, it's what PF has tried to do, I think, with their Bloodlines.  The problem is, most of their bloodlines suck.  I'd also like more class abilities for Wizards, but it's sort of a non-issue as they have a panoply of great prestige classes.  One easy fix is to give some of the less-used ones full casting and use that to paper over the Wizard's lack of class abilities.

The thing is, there is a huge gulf of difference between being able to cast an occasional spell when it's handy -- especially a great spell that lasts 24 hours or that you're going to persist or whatever -- and having to add it onto your spell list.  Anticipate Teleport is a great one for a Wizard to have access to.  No Sorcerer ever expends his spells known on it.  There are a fair number of these in D&D, at least, such as the Heart of X spells that last for hours on end.  That kind of cherry-picking is extremely powerful as there are a fair number of potent (arguably "broken") spells out there.  There's just a lot of spells in the game.

And, as we've noted in this thread, the one selling point the Sorc has -- lots of spells per day -- is meaningless after about 9th level.  And, there are whole classes of magic items that are iconic to D&D (wands, staves, etc.) that obviate it.

Which goes back to the point that simply packing the Sorcerer with more spells per day, or spells known isn't going to solve things. Wizards can get by from their lack of spells per day with wands and staves as you have mentioned, so the Spell Tricks idea or going full hog on what Bloodlines can do for you will help further distinguish Sorcerers and make them fun to play in their own right instead of constantly trying to tweak them to match a wizard.

Sorcerers don't need any more spells per day.  Maybe give them access to new spell levels at the same time as wizards (and ditto for favoured souls/beguilers/dread necros/warmages), and buff their spells known to that of favoured souls.  Give them an extra 2 skill points per level, add diplomacy, gather info, and UMD to their class skills, and give them a few other minor abilities through a bloodline thing, like what PF did.

[JaronK]

^ And so, as I've already said in this thread, Sorcerers need something other than what they already have (spells per day) to make someone playing them not suffer from "wizard envy."  A condition that is already all too common in D&D.

I'd rather just nerf Wizards.  Sorcerers are already really strong... and let's face it, there are PrCs that grant them insane numbers of spells known anyway (Shadowcraft Mage being the most obvious).  They don't need buffing.  Wizards need to be cut down a notch or two.

I've always said the only thing weak about Sorcerers is that they were printed next to Wizards in the PHB.

JaronK

[Demelain]

I agree the spells per day isn't an issue.
Things which bugger me about the Sorcerer class:
-A spell level behind prepared casters (easy enough to fix, didn't make much sense to begin with)
-Inability to use metamagic effectively (yes, there are feats/ACFs to reduce the casting time, but it really shouldn't have taken longer to begin with)
-As a CHA-focused caster, INT falls somewhere around third or fourth (depending on how you feel about DEX) in your stat priority, giving you very few skill points with your 2 base (this is more a problem with the skill system in general)
-Even if you had lots of skill points, you skill selection is pretty shitty
-The one that annoys me the most is a lack of actual class features - you have no reason to even consider staying in the base class once a PrC is available.

Shadowcraft Mage is a great example of a class that make Sorcerers fantastically flexible, and perhaps something could be taken from that. A spellcraft check to emulate a spell, at reduced strength? Just a basic suggestion, would need a lot of fleshing out to make it not-as-silly as an actual SC Mage.

[merkwerdigeliebe]

I agree the spells per day isn't an issue.
Things which bugger me about the Sorcerer class:
-A spell level behind prepared casters (easy enough to fix, didn't make much sense to begin with)
-Inability to use metamagic effectively (yes, there are feats/ACFs to reduce the casting time, but it really shouldn't have taken longer to begin with)
-As a CHA-focused caster, INT falls somewhere around third or fourth (depending on how you feel about DEX) in your stat priority, giving you very few skill points with your 2 base (this is more a problem with the skill system in general)
-Even if you had lots of skill points, you skill selection is pretty shitty
-The one that annoys me the most is a lack of actual class features - you have no reason to even consider staying in the base class once a PrC is available.

Shadowcraft Mage is a great example of a class that make Sorcerers fantastically flexible, and perhaps something could be taken from that. A spellcraft check to emulate a spell, at reduced strength? Just a basic suggestion, would need a lot of fleshing out to make it not-as-silly as an actual SC Mage.

That actually sounds like a somewhat interesting system in exchange for PHB spontaneous spellcasting. The skill DCs would have to be high enough at every level (would be a weird formula) to be achievable, but difficult (unfortunately optimization would negate it or you would end up with a Truenamer-like system).

Out of curiosity, and I realize this is kind of off topic (and probably asinine), but what are the optimal stat weights without feats/class abilities? My guess would be Con>Str>Int/Dex>Wis>Cha.

[SorO_Lost]

Even with Feats/Class aside, it's still had to pin Ability order.

For instance, 18 Con might as well be 8 Con if it's 1st level.
Better your SLAs are the higher your Cha should be.
Wearing an armor with a high bonus? Probably has next to nothing for Dex to AC.
Wisdom is only useful for Will saves, something that at very low levels isn't very common and late game items are better.
etc.
***

Also, changing the Sorcerer by more wizard!!1! isn't fixing the Sorcerer. It's spitting on the source concept, playing ignorant to the word 'fix', and at the end of the day by making even more like the Wizard you have even less incentive to play a Sorcerer. Because screw it, if your best houserule is Sorcerer=Wizard, just play the damn Wizard instead.

[Kethrian]

Also, changing the Sorcerer by more wizard!!1! isn't fixing the Sorcerer. It's spitting on the source concept, playing ignorant to the word 'fix', and at the end of the day by making even more like the Wizard you have even less incentive to play a Sorcerer. Because screw it, if your best houserule is Sorcerer=Wizard, just play the damn Wizard instead.

So, exactly who's suggested changes make them "more wizard"?  Or, more importantly, who's changes sound reasonable to apply to a sorcerer without making them more like a wizard?

[SorO_Lost]

Eh, couple of people. Even you, lets give them Wizard-advancement, they don't get as many skills as a Wizard so lets up that too, oh and they can't use Metamagic in the same way as Wizards, etc.

For an example of what things could be, take the PF comments. PF expanded the Wizard giving them 3 powers for choosing their school focuses. The PF Sorcerer on the other hand picks up a blood line per WotC flavor and nets not only bonus spells & feats, but an average 5 powers in theme to your ancestry heritage.

The difference between those two examples are night and day. One of them paid attention to the class's flavor (and ton of crappy meant for feats/prcs) and attempted to expand on that with a nod towards giving more since it's weaker than another similar class. The other came up with number tweaks based on the ideal of "more Wizard!". In other words, one expanded the class in question with new material but the other is seeking nothing less than a well built Wizard self titling its self "Sorcerer".