Author Topic: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?  (Read 15980 times)

Offline Unbeliever

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any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« on: September 22, 2012, 11:24:48 PM »
I know this is a wacky question, but I'm toying with making a character who might have some metamagic reducers anyway and who happens to be, primarily, a summoner.  Is there any way to make that work for me?

Imbued Summoning is the only one I can think of, and it's kind of crap.  Even getting rid of the level adjustment, it's not a huge, or even particularly interesting, edge.  Though I guess it's got some mild benefit when paired withe Malconvoker. 

Is there anything else out there? 

Offline sirpercival

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 11:28:01 PM »
Extend? Twin? Repeat?
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Offline kurashu

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 11:30:26 PM »
Extend? Twin? Repeat?

DMM Persist?

Rapid?

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 11:38:56 PM »
Thanks.  Those should have completely occurred to me while I was typing the OP. 

Can you Persist Summon Monster?  Twin and Repeat are great ones.  They are pretty expensive level-wise, so I'll have to put a lot of work into it if I want to use those.  Anything in the +1 or +2 range? 

Offline brujon

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 11:46:32 PM »
Thanks.  Those should have completely occurred to me while I was typing the OP. 

Can you Persist Summon Monster?  Twin and Repeat are great ones.  They are pretty expensive level-wise, so I'll have to put a lot of work into it if I want to use those.  Anything in the +1 or +2 range?

Invisible spell.
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 12:23:46 AM »

Invisible spell.
Oh, that's dirty, but beautiful.

Rapid Summoning?
Rapid Spell, rather.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 12:29:46 AM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline kurashu

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 12:56:10 PM »
Rabid Spell.

Offline Vicerious

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 01:54:45 PM »
Empower Spell for when you use a summon monster spell to summon multiple creatures from a lower-level list.  This is especially interesting since it can allow you to go over the usual maximum number of creatures (a 3 on a 1d3 gets empowered to 4, for example).
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Offline Captnq

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 02:20:05 PM »
DECEPTIVE SPELL
Maybe. If you want to frame someone else for summoning the monster.

EARTHBOUND SPELL
OH YES!!! A broken way to use this feat is available to the druid. You can spontaneously cast a summon nature's ally spell, thus allowing you to place it in a square that is triggered when entered. You can specify that the summon creature does nothing and to await your command. It can't be summoned in the square that was just entered, so the creature has to appear next to the square. You can choose which square it appears in at the time you set this up. Then place another earthbound summoning spell in the square the creature is supposed to appear in. Repeat with as many summoning spells as you wish. Then, within the next hour, step on the first square and the chain of triggered spells will give you a line of summoned creatures awaiting your commands.

EMPOWER SPELL
“All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.”
Not only is the the number of critters you roll, but technically the hit points as well.

ENLARGE SPELL
What’s the point? But possible choice.

EXTEND SPELL
Not a bad choice with a metamagic rod.

IMBUED SUMMONING
One of these days I’m going to have to go through the 3rd level spells and make a list of choice ones to add to this.

INVISIBLE SPELL
Won’t work. “All other aspects of the spell, including range, area, targets, and damage remain the same.” That would include the effect line. The effect line is one summoned critter. The critter is not invisible, just his manifestation.

MAXIMIZE SPELL
Maximize Hitpoints.

QUICKEN SPELL
Faster is always better.

RAPID SPELL
Faster is always better.

REPEAT SPELL
Not cost effective, but hey, maybe you can make it work.

SILENT SPELL
In a silence field.

TRANSDIMENSIONAL SPELL
Technically… It will allow the summoned critters to hurt extra-dimensional critters… but it’s a stretch. In a weird interpretation, I could see summoning critters into the ethereal.

TWIN SPELL
Can you summon critters into the same square?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 09:20:47 AM »
INVISIBLE SPELL
Won’t work. “All other aspects of the spell, including range, area, targets, and damage remain the same.” That would include the effect line. The effect line is one summoned critter. The critter is not invisible, just his manifestation.
What?! OK... so how about an Invisible Flaming Sphere? Is that possible? Your argument seems like nonsense. If you buy it, this feat works with almost nothing. The creature summoned is the "visible manifestation". If it's not, please tell me what is...
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 09:48:36 AM »
INVISIBLE SPELL
Won’t work. “All other aspects of the spell, including range, area, targets, and damage remain the same.” That would include the effect line. The effect line is one summoned critter. The critter is not invisible, just his manifestation.
What?! OK... so how about an Invisible Flaming Sphere? Is that possible? Your argument seems like nonsense. If you buy it, this feat works with almost nothing. The creature summoned is the "visible manifestation". If it's not, please tell me what is...
My DM was ok with it working like ordinary Invisibility (i.e., the level 2 spell).  So, the monster is invisible till it attacks.  That struck me as perfectly reasonable. 

Offline Captnq

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 10:18:48 AM »
INVISIBLE SPELL
Won’t work. “All other aspects of the spell, including range, area, targets, and damage remain the same.” That would include the effect line. The effect line is one summoned critter. The critter is not invisible, just his manifestation.
What?! OK... so how about an Invisible Flaming Sphere? Is that possible? Your argument seems like nonsense. If you buy it, this feat works with almost nothing. The creature summoned is the "visible manifestation". If it's not, please tell me what is...

Well, lets go at it by the numbers...

INVISIBLE SPELL
(click to show/hide)

1. I create an invisible fireball.

Foom. Blast of invisible flame in an instant. But the effects are damn obvious. Lots o' burning stuff. However, the little red glowing bead that shoots out of my finger? You have NO clue where that came from. Add on Silent, Still, Eschew Materials and you have a fireball that nobody knows where it came from, how it got there, who's to blame, anything. This is the point of this feat.

You can use Still, Silent, Eschew Materials, but people are still gonna see the little red bead shoot away from you to the target. You need invisible spell (or deceptive spell) to cover up all evidence.

Now, you will notice that fireball (from the feat's example) has no effect line.


2. I create an invisible flaming sphere.

Woosh! Flaming sphere appears. It has an effect line. The effect line is a 5-foot flaming sphere. Now, the appearance of the flaming sphere is invisible, but once it shows up, it's still a 5-foot flaming sphere. Effect line is unchanged.

3. I create an invisible color spray.

Vorp! Now, nobody can see the rainbow colors, but nothing in the spell says you are immune to it if you are blind. So it has normal effect, it's just everyone sees you spreading your fingers, flicking sand in the air while you chant in draconic, but no rainbow brite manifestations.

4. Summon Critter

Bamf! Effect line is unchanged. Critter appears. Now, is there any bolt of energy from your hand to where the critter appears? Doesn't say, so the point of adding this feat is... well... pointless. It's like charm person. Sure, you can make it invisible, but nobody can see the effect anyways.

If you want an invisible summoned critter, I'm afraid you need to use imbue summoning, which specifically gives that as an example.


Is the feat useless to anyone other then a sorcerer using arcane spellsurge and/or an invisible assassin? Yeah, it's useless.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2012, 10:38:09 AM »
...
Is the feat useless to anyone other then a sorcerer using arcane spellsurge and/or an invisible assassin? Yeah, it's useless.
The fact that your interpretation of the feat makes it useless is a powerful argument against it.  It essentially deletes Invisible Spell from the game, which is generally speaking, bad interpretive practice.

EDIT:  also, your reading of "all other aspects of the spell ..." isn't right, I think.  You're reading that nothing else in the spell changes.  To wit, in the case of Summon Monster that the target line does not change at all.  But, it doesn't change except for the fact that it has no visual manifestation.  You've chosen to read out the "all other aspects" phrase of the effects line. 

Furthermore, the spell description goes on to say that the "effects" of the spell are unseen.  What would the "effects" of a Summon Monster spell other than the summoned creature? 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 11:32:49 AM by Unbeliever »

Offline Captnq

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 12:24:22 PM »
...
Is the feat useless to anyone other then a sorcerer using arcane spellsurge and/or an invisible assassin? Yeah, it's useless.
The fact that your interpretation of the feat makes it useless is a powerful argument against it.  It essentially deletes Invisible Spell from the game, which is generally speaking, bad interpretive practice.

City Magic, Coersive Spell, Cooperative Spell, Deafening, Delay Spell, Echoing, Energy Admixture, Enlarge, WIDEN, Fell Frighten, Metanode, Reaping, Sudden Quicken, Transdimensional, Umbral, Wounding, Violate.

All are metamagic feats. All are feats of very limited use and practicality. Stating something is next to useless is not something for or against an argument. True, you can give me specific examples of the above feats being useful in specific situations, but if your PC had only two feat slots for metamagic feats, you HAD to take metamagic feats, but you could take ANY metamagic feat, do you really expect me to believe you would willingly take any of these?

Unless you are an assassin who loves being invisible, or a sorcerer planing on Arcane Spellsure, Invisibility is of little practical use.

EDIT:  also, your reading of "all other aspects of the spell ..." isn't right, I think.  You're reading that nothing else in the spell changes.  To wit, in the case of Summon Monster that the target line does not change at all.  But, it doesn't change except for the fact that it has no visual manifestation.  You've chosen to read out the "all other aspects" phrase of the effects line. 

Furthermore, the spell description goes on to say that the "effects" of the spell are unseen.  What would the "effects" of a Summon Monster spell other than the summoned creature?

I see another feat that specifically is created for the purpose of doing exactly what you want to do. Imbue Summoning. Why would I EVER take THAT feat which requires me to cast TWO spells and add +1 level to one of them, to do the same thing Invisible Spell could do for +0? Imbue summoning sucks as it is. You would Gut Imbue Summoning to make Invisible Spell Stronger.

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object isn’t sent back unless the spell’s description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it’s killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It isn’t really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to re-form, during which time it can’t be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast end. A summoned creature can’t use any innate summoning abilities it might have. It refuses to use any abilities that cost it experience points or would cost experience points if they were spells. Like a calling, a summoning is a two-way trip for a creature.

Now, if it said, "CREATED a creature or object", I'd agree with you. But Summon Monster is merely bringing the critter from somewhere else. Unless the critter is invisible to begin with, the critter won't be invisible HERE. The spell is transport, nothing more.

Think of the spell like a bus. The Celestial Hedgehog gets on the Summon Monster Express and appears in the square you point at. Now, if you use invisible spell, the bus is invisible, but the Celestial Hedgehog is still visible. He might be surprised to be zipping through the Astral Plane like Wonder Woman in her invisible jet, but the BUS is the spell, not the monster.

Invisible Spell is next to useless for most Conjuration Spells. It's much more useful for evocation, illusion, and certain necromancy spells. An Invisible Spectral Touch Spell would be a scary thing when combined with Vampiric Touch.

But Conjuring Invisible Critters? No. Sorry.

However, please, I'm always open to discussion. If You can sum up your position in a paragraph or two, I'll include it as a Minority Opinion in the Metamagic Section of THE SPELLBOOK.


EDIT: It just occured to me a use for an invisible summon monster spell. I remember an adventure where when you summon a monster, an effect was triggered against the caster, in a certain location. I think it was lightning or some damaging effect. An invisible Summon Monster would be "invisible", so the detector would not "see" the summon monster spell, thus allowing a conjurer to summon monsters without triggering said side effects. Wish I could remember the module.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 12:30:10 PM by Captnq »
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 12:54:38 PM »
...
Is the feat useless to anyone other then a sorcerer using arcane spellsurge and/or an invisible assassin? Yeah, it's useless.
The fact that your interpretation of the feat makes it useless is a powerful argument against it.  It essentially deletes Invisible Spell from the game, which is generally speaking, bad interpretive practice.

City Magic, Coersive Spell, Cooperative Spell, Deafening, Delay Spell, Echoing, Energy Admixture, Enlarge, WIDEN, Fell Frighten, Metanode, Reaping, Sudden Quicken, Transdimensional, Umbral, Wounding, Violate.

All are metamagic feats. All are feats of very limited use and practicality. Stating something is next to useless is not something for or against an argument. True, you can give me specific examples of the above feats being useful in specific situations, but if your PC had only two feat slots for metamagic feats, you HAD to take metamagic feats, but you could take ANY metamagic feat, do you really expect me to believe you would willingly take any of these?

Unless you are an assassin who loves being invisible, or a sorcerer planing on Arcane Spellsure, Invisibility is of little practical use.
You are failing to distinguish between a feat that is crappy -- of limited use -- and of one that is literally useless.  As in, does nothing.  Transdimensional Spell does something, has a game effect, it's just not one that it is terribly useful.  That's different than literally has no effect on the game whatsoever. 

PhaedrusXY's contention is that if you said invisible flaming sphere didn't conjure a flaming sphere that was, in fact, invisible, then it would be literally useless.  Indeed, it would make what exactly invisible?  The "poof" that a flaming sphere makes when it appears?  Does that even happen?  I don't see anything anywhere that says it has to.  So, what exactly, is being made invisible?  That's Phaedrus' contention, I believe, and mine as well.

Further, your reading of Invisible Spell, that it doesn't make the effect line of the spell invisible, involves figuring out what the "visual manifestation" of a spell is in its entry.  The reason you think Invisible Spell doesn't do anything might be b/c there is no real game element that corresponds to it -- spells do not have "visual manifestations" called out as a game mechanic, contrary to duration, effect, etc. 

...
I see another feat that specifically is created for the purpose of doing exactly what you want to do. Imbue Summoning. Why would I EVER take THAT feat which requires me to cast TWO spells and add +1 level to one of them, to do the same thing Invisible Spell could do for +0? Imbue summoning sucks as it is. You would Gut Imbue Summoning to make Invisible Spell Stronger.
This isn't a bad argument for saying Invisible Spell doesn't work with Summon Monster.

...
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object isn’t sent back unless the spell’s description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it’s killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It isn’t really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to re-form, during which time it can’t be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast end. A summoned creature can’t use any innate summoning abilities it might have. It refuses to use any abilities that cost it experience points or would cost experience points if they were spells. Like a calling, a summoning is a two-way trip for a creature.

Now, if it said, "CREATED a creature or object", I'd agree with you. But Summon Monster is merely bringing the critter from somewhere else. Unless the critter is invisible to begin with, the critter won't be invisible HERE. The spell is transport, nothing more.
...
This is all totally logical.  I'm not necessarily arguing that it's bad reasoning or that it's a poor reading of the way D&D's magic is conveyed.  But, it's reading in a serious limitation to Invisible Spell that has no textual basis whatsoever.  In short, it's your own house rule.  Whether it's the majority or not I have no idea, I don't take surveys on such matters. 

I believe that if Invisible Spell is going to do anything, to give its words any effect whatsoever, an Invisible Flaming Sphere is going to be invisible.  That has to be the point of the feat (ditto Walls of Fire, etc.).  Now, consider the following lines in the spell descriptions from the SRD: 

Flaming Sphere, effect:  5 ft. diameter sphere
Summon Monster I, effect:  one summoned creature

Why is the effect of the first spell invisible, but the second not?  Because one of them is a summoning spell and the other is an evocation?  But, there is not even a hint of that in the description of Invisible Spell.  There's no phrasing like there is with other metamagic feats, such as restricting them to damage dealing spells and so forth. 

You've just read into the spell "doesn't work on Summoning."
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 12:59:00 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 01:20:32 PM »
Prismatic Wall
Effect: Wall 4 ft./level wide, 2 ft./level high
Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall—a shimmering, multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack. The wall flashes with seven colors, each of which has a distinct power and purpose.

Add Invisibile Spell.  What happens?
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Offline Solo

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 01:55:41 PM »
Rabid Spell.
Foaming-at-the-mouth good metamagic feat.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 02:30:45 PM »
Prismatic Wall
Effect: Wall 4 ft./level wide, 2 ft./level high
Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall—a shimmering, multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack. The wall flashes with seven colors, each of which has a distinct power and purpose.

Add Invisibile Spell.  What happens?

Hrmm... Good question.

I always assumed the defining metric was the effect line, but you have just show an example that would seem to, in a RAI way, be transparent, but on a RAW level would seem to be unaffected.

Perhaps this isn't something that can be left up to a sweeping statement, "All spells with effect lines are unchanged." Alas, the FAQ has nothing on Invisible Spell.

Perhaps a much better way to look at it is that Invisible Spell makes the SPELL invisible. So one must determine what the spell is and what it is doing.

Conjuration is the transportation of materials. The material itself is not the creation of the spell, therefore, the creature/object conjured would not be invisible.

Evocation creates the fire/force/whatever, so then that would be invisible. Flaming sphere is a created fire, not a conjured one, therefore, it would be invisible.

Abjuration creates magical protections, therefore, those protections would be invisible.

Necromancy channels negative material energy, it does not create it, so most of the time, invisible spell would be of little use.

Enchantment has no visible manifestation, but there are spells like Detect Charm. I would assume an invisible Charm Person would be invisible to that sort of detection spell.

Divination.. Render your divinations invisible to detect divination?

Transformation gets tricky... An invisible alter self would... what? An invisible shapechange? I have to say I can think of few sistuations where one would allow that. The spell is changing the object, not making the object, so the transformed object would be visible, but the FX would be invisible. Like, the disintegrate spell. The green ray would be invisible, but the resulting pile of ash would be visible.

Illusion... is not the point of illusion to be seen? Then again, it might make illusions only visible to those with see invisibility. Ironically, using Shadow Conjuration to imitate Summon Monster would allow you to make an invisible Shadow Monster. What the heck would an invisible Invisibility Spell be?


Help me out here. I can see this needs clairification, but I need some sort of line. And if there are multiple lines, depending on your point of view, I need to list them all.


One line is creating something vs merely affecting.
Another line is, Whatever the spell Effect line reads is invisible. (But what of spells without effect lines, then?)

Rabid Spell.
Foaming-at-the-mouth good metamagic feat.

Heh. My Bad.

I believe that if Invisible Spell is going to do anything, to give its words any effect whatsoever, an Invisible Flaming Sphere is going to be invisible.  That has to be the point of the feat (ditto Walls of Fire, etc.).  Now, consider the following lines in the spell descriptions from the SRD: 

Flaming Sphere, effect:  5 ft. diameter sphere
Summon Monster I, effect:  one summoned creature

Why is the effect of the first spell invisible, but the second not?  Because one of them is a summoning spell and the other is an evocation?  But, there is not even a hint of that in the description of Invisible Spell.  There's no phrasing like there is with other metamagic feats, such as restricting them to damage dealing spells and so forth. 

You've just read into the spell "doesn't work on Summoning."

Ah. I see your confusion. No. I'm more a "What is part of the spell." vs "What the spell is affecting." point of view. The spell itself is invisible, what the spell targets is not. A conjured thingie is not "made"... it's not part of a spell, it's something affected by the spell. The flaming sphere is made, the conjured beastie is brought forth from the higher planes.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2012, 02:37:11 PM »
What about Gate?

Or, a simpler version:

Quote
Black Blade of Disaster.
Conjuration (Creation)
Effect: Sword-shaped planar rift
You create a black blade-shaped planar rift about 3 feet long.

Isn't the visual manifestation of the spell "a black blade-shaped planar rift about 3 feet long"?

EDIT: If you want to discuss a Summoning spell, here's Lesser Luminous Assassin.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 02:42:56 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: any good metamagic feats for Summon Monster?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »
A conjured thingie is not "made"...
This is sometimes true, but not always.
Quote
Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation).