Author Topic: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?  (Read 37874 times)

Offline Tonymitsu

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2013, 09:44:17 PM »
-Achillies was actually quite smart, like knowing how to bait Hector out of Troy's walls. He just hapened to face evern smarter people.
Huh?  He took to the fields and killed every person he fought.  Hector was just there as the commander of his side's forces.

-Son Goku may be quite naive and lacking common sense, but he's a genius when it comes to martial arts theory (and practice of course). There's also the part where he had one of the purest souls in his verse, so he clearly wasn't a bloodthirsty berseker.
True, but being a bloodthirsy berserker wasn't a qualifier.  It was heroes who are known for violence and killing and are also not smart.  Goku might have decades of fighting experience to draw from, but he's still not inherently bright.

-Guts has a great strategic mind. He sucessfully led troops in combat in numerous situations and at least half the battles he wins is because he knows how to outsmart the demon of the week. It's just when he's facing puny enemy masses that he resorts to "Greater Cleave bitches!"
I'll give you the fight against Wyald (though Wyald was a dumb as a rock, himself).  But I still hold that "Greater Cleave bitches!" is Guts's defining character quality, not his occasional foray into strategy.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2013, 10:34:15 PM »
Ok, hold on.  At the point we're calling Achilles and Goku "smart," then we have emptied the word of content.  At that point "smart" just means "good at fighting." 

EDIT:  ninja'ed. 

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2013, 11:10:42 PM »
But that's just it. Smart compresses all forms of intellect. Would you call Sherlock Holmes stupid because he didn't know if the Earth went around the moon or the Sun? And before you reply back Sherlock wasn't dumb enough not to know the answer. A recent TV Series plays this up, Sherlock doesn't care about the answer as it is needless trivia that would take up precious space in his memory.

Dragonball is NOT a serious manga. It introduces a 10 year old boy with no formal education and plays his nativity for laughs. However, the one thing that was taught to him was kung fu, and he is a frigging genius at it.  He is an extremely fast learner with an adaptive combat style and he exploits both weaknesses and expectations of his opponents. He also had the foresight to realize he won't live forever and held back for the sole purposes of pushing the others forward. His mistakes as noted are his nativity which is played for laughs, his absolute innocence which gave us Piccolo, Vageta and Uube on team hero for a 3/4 win count, his desire to get someone else to save the world rather than resurrecting him whenever there is a cry for help, and the inherent flaw that is part of his Saiyen heritage that makes him want to fight tough opponents. By all real accounts, he is smart. He didn't have a chance or a need to apply him self in school so we don't have those results, but the things he needed to learn and the times someone did teach him something he picked up the skill set quickly and showed competence in mere hours. Then he put those skills to use in ways to surprise his opponents.

That is a measure of intelligence.
It's just not your stick that you think is the one and only true way to measure "smart".

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2013, 01:02:36 AM »
On occasion, I like to think that words have intelligible content.  If you aren't comfortable with that, and in the context of a game that reduces qualities to numbers and discrete categories no less, then I don't see much productive coming of it.  Role-playing, necessarily involves reducing characters to concepts and characteristics that can be conveyed to other people you're playing with.  If you can't do that, the game is never going to be able to get off the ground, nor can you have a meaningful discussion about characters.  Your only response to that, in the context of RPGs and to some extent character analysis/literary criticism, is not so veiled insults. 

The idea that there is some sort of logical impossibility that a character can be a hero and not be intelligent in its conventional, plain English, ordinary meaning, is absurd.  Hercules alone, an important mythological hero for millenia, should be a sufficient counterexample.  Likewise, Beowulf, Fafhrd, Kalam Mekhar, and Spike Speigel have never been renowned for their intellect.  Comic book characters are a little hard to peg down due to various incarnations, but, off the top of my head:  Human Torch, Gambit, Namor, and Hawkeye have never been great thinkers.  I don't know if I'd call them idiots, but intelligence wouldn't be cited among their strengths.  Hell, neither Luke Skywalker or Han Solo seem particularly bright, as noted by a certain princess. 

Unless by "smart" one means "capable."  That wasn't the context of the original post that started this tangent, which specifically calls out mental abilities and wits.  It's also not what the word generally means.  And, it also doesn't actually get to the heart of anything interesting except for the very uncontroversial point that heroes probably need to be good at something. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:14:23 AM by Unbeliever »

Offline veekie

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2013, 05:47:14 AM »
Heroes have the ability to affect the situation, to change the flow of events. In order to do this, they need power that can be applied or leveraged to the situation at hand. They can't be truly helpless, disadvantaged yes, but they can always struggle meaningfully or at a cost. The strong and flexible don't need to be smart, the limited are naturally ingenious so as to alter the situation with their capabilities.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2013, 01:27:51 PM »
Oh the word has value, it's the examples that don't.

Someone said all heroes are smart. In general context, this is true. Someone claimed the Hulk wasn't, but Hulk is an Alternate personality of a genius that can turn your toaster into a time machine and in the comics are weird category he has a times maintained his super intellect and monstrous strength at the same time. The implication there is the example is based on measuring a fraction of the character rather than it's entirety. This prompts a rebuttal on your part that you might as well call Goku smart because holy shit stain on a filing cabinet the meaning is loss. No, the meaning hasn't been, and you are using a second pathetic example. Like in your newest post we've got a 3rd example. I could agree with you on Beowulf of Han Solo readily enough, but Jedi uphold to the ideals of Wisdom and understanding and it is a requirement of such in order to master the Force. Luke being a super prodigy would have a Wisdom Score astronomically higher than the one you're displaying now. Like wise, Gambit's card counting skills are beyond a Texas Hold'em grand champion and the trait for such is accurate statistical calculations from multiple factors on the fly. And didn't he have the ability to supercharge his brain in one of his issues? Who knows or cares on the rest, the point is there.

The word has meaning. You just never learned it (fyi, synonym of "talented" is "genius") so you use poor examples.
I'm refuting those stupid examples, and apparently now entering a language debate. Which is boring so cite Beowulf and pretend you won an Internet argument already ok?

Offline Captnq

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2013, 01:48:37 PM »
The tale of the Gordian Knot is one of the best known stories told about Gordion, and one of the few that features Gordion in a popular figure of speech. The story recounts an episode that took place in 333 BCE during the campaigns of Alexander of Macedon against the Persian Empire. Alexander was advancing with his army across Anatolia and came to Gordion, probably because this was a natural stopping point on the road that led inland from the Aegean Coast towards Ankara (ancient Ancyra) and further east.

While at Gordion, the Macedonian king learned about a special wagon that was situated in the Temple of Zeus. The pole of the wagon was tied to the wagon body with an intricate knot of cornel bark, and a prophecy had foretold that whoever could unfasten the knot would go on to rule over Asia (or even the whole settled world, in one version). Seized by a longing to test the prophecy, Alexander tried to unfasten the knot by unraveling it, but when he was unable to do so, he drew his sword and cut right through it. From this comes the proverbial expression “to cut the Gordian Knot”, meaning to cut right to the heart of a matter without wasting time on external details.

Also:
There is no problem that cannot be solved with enough explosives. The question is, "Which is worse, the problem or the solution?"

Do you know what "Smart" means? I win. The smart guy is the winner. The dumb guy is the loser. I don't care if you play a game of xantos Speed chess or you just hack the gordian knot in twain. The hero is usually the guy who could be defined as "vertical" and the loser is the guy who is defined as "horizontal".

Guess who writes the history books?

And pathfinder still hates monks.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2013, 11:55:54 PM »
What about Lu Bu?  He was renowned for his fighting skill and thirst for blood, but not known for his intellect.
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Offline Kerrus

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2013, 04:06:58 PM »

Guess who writes the history books?


I feel the need to clear up this most common of misconceptions.

'Heroes' or 'Winners' do not write history books.

Generally speaking, Historians or their scribes write history books.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2013, 05:19:58 PM »
i think that instead of using "smart" for certain of these examples we should use "cunning".

i'm thinking of the book-uneducated but wily and cunning entrepreneur who has a think tank of phd's working for him making him very rich. it could be said that the guy is smart, but it is not the same kind of smart as book-learning or scientific understanding that is usually what is meant when people say "smart". therefore, cunning.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2013, 01:49:22 PM »
Using a more specific term usually helps, but in this case they're referring to Endairre's statement of "I don't know of anyone 'heroic' who was famous for violence and killing things without also being smart", and if he was talking about book-learning the list would be very, very long. To give a proper counter to that statement, one would have to give an example of a hero who is neither smart nor cunning and displays skill, talent, etc only in the field of violence and killing things. Like Fezzik if he were a hero rather than a sidekick. Even Inigo Montoya would work (although again, he's not a hero), because by separating "being smart" from "violence and killing things" Endairre was indicating that being skilled or smart at fighting isn't enough.

People here are getting far too angry.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2013, 02:59:36 PM »
Using a more specific term usually helps, but in this case they're referring to Endairre's statement of "I don't know of anyone 'heroic' who was famous for violence and killing things without also being smart", and if he was talking about book-learning the list would be very, very long. To give a proper counter to that statement, one would have to give an example of a hero who is neither smart nor cunning and displays skill, talent, etc only in the field of violence and killing things. Like Fezzik if he were a hero rather than a sidekick. Even Inigo Montoya would work (although again, he's not a hero), because by separating "being smart" from "violence and killing things" Endairre was indicating that being skilled or smart at fighting isn't enough.

People here are getting far too angry.

oh, you mean like vorkosigan's hound? highly trained, not so bright, very traumatized and mentally damaged, all body memory... deadly as sin, but usually had to be pointed at a target or gotten mad? though he was more-or-less in the sidekick role too...

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2013, 03:01:23 PM »
Danny The Dog.
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Offline Honeyko

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2013, 01:16:58 AM »
(I) Don't play pathfinder. Can't even say it's worth raiding for ideas.... My Player Group's power gamer keeps muttering from time to time about how we should play the game and that she wants to play a wizard again.

That alone is enough to make me want to kill it with fire.
There is no Pathfinder wizard archetype/PrC combo that is as strong as 3rd's Mage of the Arcane Order. (And nobody in PF is casting Shield+7 into a bauble and giving it to the fighter either.)

(So: you should totally take your power-gamer up on it, then ban his old 3rd edition stuff as obsolete/incompatible.)
Quote
That said, I have read the rules and I have this to say about monks, having one min/maxed monk and one player playing a much more poorly designed monk trying to play catch up while avoiding "cheese".

Monks, straight up, suck.
Having a potential three two-handed Power Attacks with a temple sword at 4th level is something no other martial class can swing at that level -- and it's core rulebook 6th printing. No splats.

(All the melee-oriented classes are significantly better in Pathfinder. Even <shudder> rogues.)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 01:19:00 AM by Honeyko »

Offline Keldar

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2013, 03:12:23 AM »
Is there a violent hero that is not smart?

I guess that depends on what the definition of is is.    :rolleyes