Author Topic: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?  (Read 37867 times)

Offline Libertad

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 06:14:56 PM »
@ Unbeliever:

I'm guessing more than stating what I think is right.  Sorry, should have been more specific.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 11:20:10 PM by Libertad »

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2012, 12:49:25 AM »
Paizo has a careful balancing act.  Part of their publicity was that it's 3.5, but improved.  Also, it's still close enough to the 3.5 we know and love to be reverse-compatible.

If Paizo changes too much, they'll turn people off.  Change too little, and people will fill like the RPG's a waste and the Open Playtest a failure.

It appears that Paizo's trying to go with the "stay close to classic 3.5" by reinforcing caster/noncaster imbalance.

But they didn't just maintain it.  They expanded it.

The only real nerfs to casters are more narrow and boring selection of "win spells" (though dazing spell alone turns literally dozens of spells into win spells, so...) while still leaving enough in for it to not matter, and not re-printing the most heinously broken crap from 3E that was or bordered on theoretical optimization (pun pun, most other infinite loops, nightstick abuse w/ Persistent Spell, etc...) and never saw actual play at pretty much any table anyway.

PF affords casters 20 free skill ranks in concentration, automatic +2 to casting stat from race even if limited to core, rewards you for not losing caster levels while punishing melees for trying to cherry pick like in 3E w/ the favored class system (and the alt. variants are things like +1/4 evo point for summoners or +1 spell known for sorcs vs. crap like +1 ft speed for monks, +1 CMD vs. 2 combat maneuvers for fighters, etc...), nerfed martial feats but left caster feats unchanged and then handed out more feats, gives casters class features like Su flight and martials class features that are total garbage...

Saying it maintained the imbalance is not a fair statement at all.

Offline Libertad

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2012, 01:43:35 AM »
If I ever find myself discussing this issue about Pathfinder on other boards (or maybe even this one), may I have permission to quote this?  It's golden.

Offline veekie

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2012, 02:03:10 AM »
One thing you have to understand is that there was a fairly large extent of numbers-rebalancing, in an attempt to keep damage, AC and similar numbers within the same range. This makes it harder to for example, bulk convert accuracy into damage, etc, and DOES make that particular component of the game more balanced. Likewise they closed the 'exploits' that much of the player base discussed.

However, you can only truly fix a problem that you understand and want to fix. If you contrast the martial class damage numbers, you'd see that all the non-conditional damage and accuracy values are within 5 points of each other given baseline optimization.  Newbie martial character players are practically certain to do at least X amounts of damage. Polymorph buffing became a series of spells that operated within limited stat ranges. In short, barring hijinks, most numbers fall within a limited compass...which basically only affected mundane classes, as nobody else needs to give a damn about nunbers.

Things like upper tier abilities(which have zero concern for the statistics involved), BFC potency, etc, entirely eludes them, and they have no fixes along those lines.
Things like the reach-trip combo, ubercharging and the flask rogue that sound exploit-y are shut down where they think they can, you have to note also that they have no idea how these are 'killed' since they tend to be brought back in a later book one way or another, usually at greater costs.
Things like the monk meanwhile, meets divided factions. Brass knuckles can be seen to explicitly make enchanting unarmed strikes easier(until SKR kills the idea), the whole mess with BAB and flurry was clearly a limited reversal of a full BAB monk idea, the Qigong and Zen Archer archetypes as a straight boost, etc. The simple problem here. One character archetype meets the personal enmity of the lead designer.
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2012, 02:28:30 AM »
If I ever find myself discussing this issue about Pathfinder on other boards (or maybe even this one), may I have permission to quote this?  It's golden.

Please do.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2012, 09:09:29 AM »
Side note:  I didn't mean my earlier post to come off as critical.  I was just presenting evidence counter to the proposed hypothesis.  Sorry if it came off as such. 

Offline Honeyko

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 04:08:50 PM »
With the Monk of the Four Winds and Sohei archetypes, I'm having a hard time time buying monk nerfage arguments.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 05:31:31 PM »
What is so good about those?

Four Winds is actually pretty lackluster. 3.5 already has an Elemental Stunning Fist sub, and the Ki Strike replacer's additional +1d6. 17th level to gain another mode of movement is ten levels later than magic items right? Reincarnate, well take away a Monk's Shadow Blend, Blink, Snap Kick, uber Unarmed, Mantis Leap, etc. And of course the Monk needs a freebie Reincarnate ability (rather ran paying a druid to do it if he goes without hearing from him). So the only gem there is Slow Time. Except it pulls from your Ki pool which is a daily limitation. Since almost every single one of the Monk's none-defensive abilities run off this pool in PF you're effectively trading out ever using your other Class Features to... *drumroll* Make two extra Attacks. Good thing FoB doesn't stack with TWF any more right? :rolleyes

Sohei reenforces Monk is 2 levels long by telling you one level is more than enough.

Offline veekie

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 07:28:28 PM »
Yeah, neither archetype actually does anything for the Monk's vital needs.

Monk of the Four Winds:
Elemental Fist is actually weaker than Stunning Fist off the bat, if you connect with Stunning Fist and they fail the save, the opponent isn't going to be doing anything to you this round, whereas elemental fist deals slightly more damage 1/round.
Slow Time helps, but has poor synergy. It has a large cost(6 ki points represent at least half your ki points at 12th level, and a third of your ki at 20th), while the Monk has few Standard Action abilities(if you use another archetype to get  those, they burn even more ki). At best you're looking at 3 extra hits in addition to your flurrying full attack, or moving in and out with 2 actions and spending the rest of them punching your opponent. Again, note that your <foo> Fist usages are all limited to 1/round.
Aspect Master is useful, but nothing it gives is really that costly to get at that level.
Immortality  - If your strategy is predicated around you dying on a regular basis, you may need a new strategy. Especially  when your Immortality doesn't waive the negative levels, and randomizes your race each time to boot.

As for Sohei, I believe you can get better mileage out of a Fighter doing the exact same thing. Immunity to surprise is the only thing in the archetype that's worth more than the cost, with all the other abilities you lose more than you gain.
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Offline Honeyko

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 08:11:02 PM »
What is so good about those?

Four Winds is actually pretty lackluster. 3.5 already has an Elemental Stunning Fist sub, and the Ki Strike replacer's additional +1d6. 17th level to gain another mode of movement is ten levels later than magic items right?
Well, granted: they're nerfed in the context of 3.5+splats ....but then again I was getting tired of seeing half-naked guys unloading twice as much DPR as my fighter while having saves twice as good. It got to the point, around 12th level or so in Living Greyhawk, where monks made everyone at the table feel useless, and it was like you weren't even playing a fantasy game anymore.

Now, they're about right where they should be: not as overall destructive as the d10s or d12s (but definitely can be short-term), but more rubbery on defense (unless they're built stupid) and full of actually useful skills.
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Reincarnate, well take away a Monk's Shadow Blend, Blink, Snap Kick, uber Unarmed, Mantis Leap, etc. And of course the Monk needs a freebie Reincarnate ability (rather ran paying a druid to do it if he goes without hearing from him). So the only gem there is Slow Time. Except it pulls from your Ki pool which is a daily limitation.
Dragon Style is better than Mantis Leap; and virtually nothing is as uber awesome in melee as two-hand Power-Attacking with a temple sword in a Flurry.
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Since almost every single one of the Monk's none-defensive abilities run off this pool in PF you're effectively trading out ever using your other Class Features to... *drumroll* Make two extra Attacks. Good thing FoB doesn't stack with TWF any more right? :rolleyes
Well...why would you want to anyway? -4 to every attack is pretty rough. But if you really want to rape multiple attacks....
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Sohei reenforces Monk is 2 levels long by telling you one level is more than enough.
A sohei multiclass archer is the best artillery in the game; see: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n203?Sohei-Monk-armor-and-flurry-of-blows#29


Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2013, 08:16:56 PM »
What is so good about those?

Four Winds is actually pretty lackluster. 3.5 already has an Elemental Stunning Fist sub, and the Ki Strike replacer's additional +1d6. 17th level to gain another mode of movement is ten levels later than magic items right?
Well, granted: they're nerfed in the context of 3.5+splats ....but then again I was getting tired of seeing half-naked guys unloading twice as much DPR as my fighter while having saves twice as good. It got to the point, around 12th level or so in Living Greyhawk, where monks made everyone at the table feel useless, and it was like you weren't even playing a fantasy game anymore.

... how the hell were they doing that?

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Now, they're about right where they should be: not as overall destructive as the d10s or d12s (but definitely can be short-term), but more rubbery on defense (unless they're built stupid) and full of actually useful skills.

I... what. MAD as hell, no synergy within their own abilities, lose most of their stuff if they try and improve their capabilities in any way... oh, right. No armour. Need a huge boost to equal one guy in plate. Plate = +8 to defence. Add in +1 from dexterity. A monk, to do that, needs an 18 in Wisdom and an 18 in Dexterity, and another two in one of them. Then they need high strength to do any damage, and high constitution to... you know, not die, because they're mundane, martial class and have merely average HD. :|

Offline veekie

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2013, 08:41:18 PM »
The key monk flaws are:
-Low AC - bypassed by specific builds, but generally lower than other characters without feat investment until the mid-late game.

-Low damage - 3/4 BAB means Power Attack is weaker, while using Flurry limits your ability to apply strength to damage, all other 3/4 BAB classes possess their sources of supplementary damage. As a multi-attacking specialist, they don't get bonuses which apply to each hit outside of damage dice increase, which at an average of +1 damage every 4 levels, is frankly embarrassing.

-High operating costs - Monk finds it more expensive to operate simply by having unarmed+unarmored being more expensive to bolster than armed+armored. Essentially they lose an item slot(weapon), on top of costlier equivalents

-Low synergy - Flurry of Blows requires full attacks to exploit. Fast Movement, no armor and low AC requires skirmishing. Stunning Fist and all the other Fist types are usable 1/round.

-High MAD - High Dex and Wis for AC(necessary where Fighters don't because they can't wear armor). High Str for damage and accuracy(necessary where Rogues don't because they have Sneak Attack dice). Not to mention at least moderate Con, as is appropriate for any melee character. Fortunately for them, three out of four needed stats go to saves, so they can save all the time, but look at for instance, the Paladin getting superior saves while riding on only 1 High stat(Str) and 2 Good stats(Cha, Con)

-Action competition - All those ki abilities run off your hotly contested standard action.

-Scattered capabilities - Monk abilities do not build towards a coherent role, much like spellcasters. Unlike spellcasters they do not have sheer quantity of abilities or power in each ability to make up for it. What you get is a deuce of all trades.

Archetypes generally only address scattered capabilities, if at that.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 08:47:43 PM by veekie »
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Offline Honeyko

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2013, 09:15:52 PM »
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how the hell were they doing that?
Beats the hell out of me...but their characters survive auditing, so the cheese was kosher.
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MAD as hell, no synergy within their own abilities, lose most of their stuff if they try and improve their capabilities in any way... oh, right. No armour. Need a huge boost to equal one guy in plate. Plate = +8 to defence. Add in +1 from dexterity. A monk, to do that, needs an 18 in Wisdom and an 18 in Dexterity, and another two in one of them. Then they need high strength to do any damage, and high constitution to... you know, not die, because they're mundane, martial class and have merely average HD. :|
Here's a current character I'm running.... (these are first level stats):

Dwarf; 25 pt buy
STR:16
DEX:14
CON+16
INT:12c
WIS+17 (bump 4th)
CHA-:05

(This is for Skulls & Shackles, a pirate-themed Paizo adventure path in which the absolute last thing you want to do is go over the side of a ship wearing full-plate.)

Buck-naked at 1st, he has a Touch AC of 15 and flurries for 2x 1d6+4 (+5 if on ships) due to starting traits and feats. ...not bad, since we're all penniless, gang-pressed slaves at the start of the campaign,

At 5th, when he picks up Marid Style as a 5th-level Monk of the Four Winds, in a full-attack flurry, he can dish out three attacks (spending a Ki point for the third) for 2x 1d8+4(or5) + 1d8+8(or9)+2d6 Elemental Fist icicle attack with 10' reach. He has six Elemental attacks per day (by contrast, a paladin is getting his second Smite). The extra 10pts of damage obtained from Marid/Elemental is equivalent to a fighter hitting five times (to pull +10 out of Weapon Specialization).

If all three connect, he'll dish out just shy of 40pts. In his skivvies. Unbuffed. No steel in sight.

This, mind you, is a relatively obvious synergistic combination of one official feat and one official archetype both appearing in literally the second Paizo splat (Ultimate Combat). I.e., it isn't a bizarre pastiche of broken Limburger from different books by different 3rd-party publishers.c
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 10:40:49 PM by Honeyko »

Offline Honeyko

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2013, 09:38:36 PM »
The key monk flaws are:
-Low AC - bypassed by specific builds, but generally lower than other characters without feat investment until the mid-late game.
Off-set by higher Touch AC and Evasion (serious factors when a single Empowered ray can drop a wounded fighter in his tracks -- and I've seen more character death by that exact method than any other in PFS play).
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-Low damage - 3/4 BAB means Power Attack is weaker, while using Flurry limits your ability to apply strength to damage, all other 3/4 BAB classes possess their sources of supplementary damage.
<Glengarry Glen Ross> "Always Be Flurrying!" (That's what shurikens are for -- plinking distant targets after dropping the guy you're in melee with.)
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As a multi-attacking specialist, they don't get bonuses which apply to each hit outside of damage dice increase, which at an average of +1 damage every 4 levels, is frankly embarrassing.
You mean, automatic increases to damage? Well, aside from a barbarian's rage increase (which are just as slow), what other class gets automatic increases? Fighters have to spend feats, and then their bonuses only apply to the weapons they picked. When all properly pimped, that fighter will do better in an endless no-rest dungeon slug tailored to burn out every other class' uses-per-day. But the fighter still has garbage saves and worthless skills, so there's balance.

-- A monk isn't nerfed when he stops being as good as, or better than, a fighter, at fighting.
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-High operating costs - Monk finds it more expensive to operate simply by having unarmed+unarmored being more expensive to bolster than armed+armored. Essentially they lose an item slot(weapon), on top of costlier equivalents
See previous post. That character could donate 100% of his income to "charity" (i.e., the wenches), and still kick ass harder than a rich fighter at 5th.
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-High MAD ...
Due to the escalating cost of very high initial states, MAD isn't the killer argument I get the impression people make it out to be. I.e., a human with a bump in STR starts with an 18 for a +1 attack over my dwarf. But it costs the human 20 points to start with an 18 STR and a 16 CON, whereas the dwarf monk will be spending only 15 for 16s in both, leaving 5pts to throw as WIS...which will give him "free Iron Will" and extra attacks (via Ki). The fighter has better flatfoot AC and worse touch.
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All those ki abilities run off your hotly contested standard action.
Most Ki powers are activated as Swift actions.
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-Scattered capabilities - Monk abilities do not build towards a coherent role, much like spellcasters. Unlike spellcasters they do not have sheer quantity of abilities or power in each ability to make up for it. ...
It's odd that you'd compare monks to spellcasters, since monks (especially dwarf monks) are the CRB melee class you want to throw into a roomful of enemy wizards first.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 10:48:14 PM by Honeyko »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2013, 11:45:57 PM »
The key monk flaws are:
-Low AC
-Low damage
-High operating costs
-Low synergy
-High MAD
-Action competition (pf only)
-Scattered capabilities
Archetypes generally only address scattered capabilities, if at that.
Most of those are only relevant till like the 7th level when Shadow Blend fixes the Monk. And they are unheard of by the 9th or 12th level (probably 9th).

Low AC? No really, armor caps out at like +10 before Enhancements with a +0 Dex Bonus. 14 Dex/Wis & +6 items hits that and you can still pick up +6 Armor off a single Wand charge (greater mage armor). And most of this is Touch based, which means it applies against the greatest threat. Plus unlike a real mundane, a Monk can access Shadow Blend for Total-Concealment, with 5ft Steps the miss chance is exponentially higher than even Greater Mirror Image. Then they can stack Blink on top of that. And both of those provide defense against Spells, something the Monk's probably superior AC can't.

Low damage?  :lol :lmao :lol :lmao :lol :lmao :lol
Unarmed Strike is the single greatest weapon in D&D 3.X. The Monk also uniquely accesses Flurry of Blows so when you mitigate those miss chances (which is cake walk in mid levels, you're *supposed* to hit with the first attack or two) it becomes nothing but even more damage. Let's not forget the synergy with Snap Kick or the Monk unique Mantis Leap that flat out says you can charge as part of a Jump check, which is a free action as part of a Move Action. It means you can freaking charge someone for every 5ft of movement you possess. Yeah, the Feat is that broken, and it's Monk-only so score.

High operating costs? Again, will say no. Sure they don't get flight, Time Stop or Gate, but you lack enough fingers and toes to count the Classes that'll never have those options. Instead, focus on the fact that Total-Concealment/Blink replaces the need to buy armor, you can pile on enhancements onto your Unarmed Strike for a fraction of the cost of anything manufactured. You can even get away with running a point or two lower on your Save bonuses, simply because in comparison you're better off than the rest. Forward that money into early flight or wands.

High MAD? MAD is a term used by people whom don't understand Min/Max. By forgoing 5% hit chance the Monk picks up 8 points under PB, that's enough to take Wisdom to 14 and still have points left over for Int. Invisible Fist is going to add +10% which means at least once per Encounter you'll have the same (or better since it's flat-footed ac) chance to hit as any other full BABer with 18 Str. Sure it's not *every round*, but the Barbarian's Rage isn't every round, the Paladin's Smite isn't every round, sometimes you just have to suck it up that you're playing low levels and you are 1/4 the party, you'd think everyone else can try carrying their weight. And looking ahead, you can own two +4 items for a cheaper price than a single +6. So if you get into stacking attributes, being "MAD" makes you more powerful than any "SAD" variant. So depending how you build your Monk, either "MAD" isn't something to sweat over, or it makes you even stronger. Minor tangent, exactly like the Paladin. Charisma can be tanked at 6, but because of Divine Grace you'll have the option to buy a +6 item for a stacking +1 to Saves, and no one else ever will. A Paladin isn't MAD, he just has more options than a Fighter or Barbarian. Same with the Monk.

Action competition (pf only)
Yeah it's terrible. PF nerfs the poor Monks, I do like that Dragon line through.

Scattered capabilities?
Think about that for a bit. The Monk gets a few Bonus Feats like the Fighter which allows him to complete the Ubercharger line while investing else where. It means by the 6th level the Monk already deals more than the 1/day Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, simply because he had the space to pick up Battle Jump and Leap Attack (and could afford sandals of tiger's leap). The Monk also picks up Stealth like the Rogue, Shadow Blend replaces the need to pick up HiPS, you can dump your Hide Ranks, and eventually just walk through walls ignoring trapped hallways and doors. On the other hand, the Fighter can't really say he can sneak around, and playing forward offense with charging isn't at all in line with the Rogue's Sneak Attack. But the Monk combines both roles quite easily. You're scattered capabilities let you function quite well as a glass cannon ninja at a reduced price. So a Monk can forward more wealth into utility allowing him to be useful across a range of traits.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 11:49:44 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline veekie

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2013, 01:14:02 AM »
Higher touch AC has limited benefits, as they could already hit the target on full AC. Take any 3/4 BAB class with their attack stat at a secondary 14, at 5th level you're looking at a naked +5 to hit against a naked touch AC of 16(and full AC of 16) versus the guy in full plate with an unenhanced touch AC of 11(and a full AC of 20). Then you look at full BAB with a primary stat at 16, and they'd be swinging for +9 accounting for masterworking.
Now consider, the Monk is primarily a melee combatant that makes use of full attacks, with his higher speed, he is likely to be the one first engaging. Therefore, he will be exposed to at least one attack against his full AC, possibly a full attack. For any full attack dependent combatant, you require sufficient AC to come out of an exchange with your skin intact, and at least give as good as you got. Then you add in that the majority of published creatures and encounters target regular AC rather than touch, and the result is obvious. A character must be able to resist common attacks effectively before attempting to resist uncommon but powerful attacks.

Automatic increases to damage also don't really mean anything. Every class has an automatically increasing source of damage, and they largely increase at a better rate than +1/4 level. Note also that BAB contributes twofold to damage, accuracy is a factor, as is the damage conversion provided by feats.
Full BAB classes as mentioned, can convert their attack bonus to damage at an effective rate, reducing their attack bonus to that of a 3/4 BAB class, with a primary ability score in Str. Additional bonuses to these classes go above and beyond, Barbarians(rage), Fighters(Weapon Training + the specialization feats nobody else has the excessive feat slots for) and Paladins(smite) are notable for hitting like trains specifically because of their added damage.
3/4 BAB classes cannot afford to rely on BAB and primary iterative output, which is why they are either fullcasters with melee secondary(Cleric, Druid, Oracle), have their own mode of non-melee contribution(Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist Summoner) or possess rapidly scaling damage boosters(Bard, Rogue, Alchemist, Magus). The Rogue gets an average +1.75 damage per hit per level, as does the Alchemist(who also gets a stat bonus from mutagen and any attack boosting Extracts), while the Magus as a spellcaster gets a low +3.5 damage per round per level on offensive spells.

Naked performance is also a poor benchmark. The whole point of Wealth By Level is that your abilities are directly correlated with your equipment. AC, Saves, attack bonus, ability scores, all of these renders your character statistically a level X character. A naked level 20 monk has the AC of a level 6 monk for a same type comparison. Thus the ability to spend wealth efficiently is a major determinant of power.
This is one of the reasons why TWF and Unarmed Strike are sub par, they simply cost more to equip on the costliest item types. It's also why heavy armors are efficient, they supply the first 9 points of AC at the cost of merely 100gp per point, and MAD characters are not efficient. The most wealth independent characters can supply all these bonuses by themselves over an extended period of time. Clerics, for example, would hugely offset the cost of enchanted weapons and armor by dint of Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment, allowing funds to be dedicated to further bonuses or even premature mainstat boosting
The 3 basic ki abilities are indeed swift actions, but feat chains and archetypes that make use of ki or stunning fist(or variant) usages tend towards standard actions.

Finally, competence against spellcasters is significantly overstated. Presuming even a favorable scenario(spellcasters within easy charge range),  Monks are weak against summoned creatures, swarms, miss chances(fog, mirror image, or even darkness), autohit attacks(magic missile), DR, invisibility, battlefield control and for divine casters, their AC itself. A 3/4 BAB class with MAD just isn't going to do that much good against Medium armor and a long duration buff spell.
Of course, pretty much any martial class is going to have trouble against a spellcaster who knows they're coming, but Monks do especially poorly, because they lack any major strength to overcome such obstacles.
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Offline Demelain

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2013, 03:24:22 AM »
Of course, pretty much any martial class is going to have trouble against a spellcaster who knows they're coming, but Monks do especially poorly, because they lack any major strength to overcome such obstacles.
But they can die slowly.

It sort of became a running-gag in one of my early D&D experiences. My DM at the time was a fan of recurring villains, and the best way he knew to keep us from killing said villain too early was to make it really fucking strong. Problem was, he wasn't exactly merciful about letting us run away (or he wanted to watch me die again).
Anyway, our villain encounters frequently involved me cutting my ear off and giving it to the Cleric and then proceeding to lead the villain on a merry chase around the town/dungeon/hell fortress while the rest of the party accomplished the quest objective. I always died at the end of the day, but by god did I make him work for it.

And hey, when it came time for the final confrontation, I knew damn near every ability in his repertoire. It took him forever to kill me that last time.
Too bad I couldn't stop him from slaughtering the rest of the party first.

Offline brujon

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 03:42:34 AM »
Of course, pretty much any martial class is going to have trouble against a spellcaster who knows they're coming, but Monks do especially poorly, because they lack any major strength to overcome such obstacles.
But they can die slowly.

It sort of became a running-gag in one of my early D&D experiences. My DM at the time was a fan of recurring villains, and the best way he knew to keep us from killing said villain too early was to make it really fucking strong. Problem was, he wasn't exactly merciful about letting us run away (or he wanted to watch me die again).
Anyway, our villain encounters frequently involved me cutting my ear off and giving it to the Cleric and then proceeding to lead the villain on a merry chase around the town/dungeon/hell fortress while the rest of the party accomplished the quest objective. I always died at the end of the day, but by god did I make him work for it.

And hey, when it came time for the final confrontation, I knew damn near every ability in his repertoire. It took him forever to kill me that last time.
Too bad I couldn't stop him from slaughtering the rest of the party first.

I literally laughed out loud. That's a really freaky strategy, lol. I'm sure many laughs were had... If i were your DM i would have probably given you some kind of template for dying and resurrecting so often, lol.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 12:44:01 PM »
A character must be able to resist common attacks effectively before attempting to resist uncommon but powerful attacks.
Total-Concealment. It means unless you hit them or they made a successful Listen Check, they won't even be attacking the square you're in. And if they do? 50% Miss before AC. Got Blink too? 60%. If your AC is so low it only blocks 35% of attacks than after those chances that's 82.75% protection from "common" attacks, 100% protection form target spells, and 20% protection from anything else.

Every class has an automatically increasing source of damage, and they largely increase at a better rate than +1/4 level.
* Full BAB PAs to 3/4, Barbarians(rage), Fighters(specialization feats) and Paladins(smite).
* 3/4 BAB classes cannot afford to rely on BAB,  and ... possess rapidly scaling damage boosters(Bard, Rogue, Alchemist, Magus). The Rogue gets an average +1.75 damage per hit per level, as does the Alchemist(who also gets a stat bonus from mutagen and any attack boosting Extracts), while the Magus as a spellcaster gets a low +3.5 damage per round per level on offensive spells.

Even a 20th level Rage example is only worth +8 Strength. That's +4 to attack & +6 to damage if THF. Rest of his Class is defensive props, Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, and not in the face please. Fighter's specialization is also worth +4/+6 (g. focus, g. special, mastery) but is obtained faster and he has several Bonus Feats left over and that 18th level Fighter Feat no one ever takes. So yes, they use Power Attack, they use charging, they use Shock Trooper. Because they have to.

Rogue gets +10d6 and increases this to say 23d6 with items. The Bard pretty much caps his Dragonfire out at +12d6 by the 8th level and the other four dice are lost to PrC options. This is significantly more damage per hit obtained than the mundanes. But you overlook the Monk because f*ck you that's why. Monks do no progress their damage like a crappy mundane, a mundane will always use the same base 2d6 weapon and pick up enhancements, well everyone picks up enhancements. Monk do no progress their damage in bonus dies, like a scout or ninja's Sneak Attack. Instead a Monk advances his weapon weapon damage and gains additional attacks.

Take the simple obtained Colossal damage rating 12d8, compare to the Fgt/Barb's 2d6 and it's 47 points higher. You can try to express this as +13d6 damage over them, but let's not demote this critable damage into bonus dice. Still, the Rogue has a 1d6 shortsword or some such and 23d6 Sneak Attack (over half of which is from items) right? That's where those additional attacks come in. They are penalty free and more in quantity than even a full BABer. Rogue deals 252 without TWF, Monk deals 270 without TWF or the additional required stipulations like the target must be Flat-Footed but cannot be an Ooze/Construct/Undead/Concealed/Sneezing. So yes, a Monk is a typical 3/4 BABer, less accurate but tons of damage. But technically "less accurate" doesn't apply form the 11th level onwards so meh.

Naked performance is also a poor benchmark.
It is a useful benchmark, because they you're not 100% dependent on you're magic item choice to make the difference. Watch this;
Quote
This is one of the reasons why TWF and Unarmed Strike are sub par, they simply cost more to equip on the costliest item types.
As I said before.
No.

Take a +3 Valorous Berserker Wrathful Healing Collision Greatsword, 200,350gp. In the hands of a 4/day+ Barbarian it gives +5 to attack rolls, +10 to damage rolls, you heal for half the damage dealt, and double damage on a charge. All this for a mighty +10 weapon, rawr feel the power of a 20th level's super weapon!

The Monk buys a +5 Necklace of Natural Weapons (50,900gp), +1 Valorous Collision Bracers of Striking (32,310gp), +1 Wrathful Healing Ward Cestus (32,310gp). Additionally the Monk picks up a Cl 16 Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (36,000) and uses the MiC to add a +6 Enhancement Bonus to Wisdom on the Necklace (36,000gp). He also picked up a Graft for Feathered Wings (10,000gp) and a Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp). So the Monk has the same +5/Valorous/Wrathful Healing/Collision weapon as the Barbarian, but it deals 12d8 and not 2d6. The Monk also covered his "MAD" Wisdom score, picked up Flight, and can heal him self. Oh, and he still has 2,080gp left over.
You see that? That's some guy named SorO bringing up the fact you am apply Unarmed enhancements through multiple weapons for like the third time in this thread. And with the money saved it picked a couple really nice items and as a result in a 200k budget the Monk deals more damage and has a verity of support effects. In effect it's a who can spend gold the best, except well obviously that Monk has an advantage since his weapon is always cheaper than the Barbs. Just like the Monk has Shadow Blend and Blink to reduce the amount of wealth needed to be sunk into AC.

It's also why heavy armors are efficient, they supply the first 9 points of AC at the cost of merely 100gp per point
Everything I have said speaks on terms of lv5+. In fact you can quote me as saying by the 9th level the Monk is simply better. So for 55% of the game, the Monk is a flat-out superior Class, we can argue where in those first 9 levels things switch over (7th level, shadow blend) but you're arguing for how badly you come in 2nd place.

I have never cared about level 1. And by level 2 while the Barbarian is like whoo I got nothing. McFighter and McMonk got more Feats and the Monk can turn Invisible. So hey, Class Wise the Monk is already better. If only we can put a Greatsword in his hand and make him wear Full-Plate...

Finally, competence against spellcasters is significantly overstated. Presuming even a favorable scenario(spellcasters within easy charge range),  Monks are weak against summoned creatures, swarms, miss chances(fog, mirror image, or even darkness), autohit attacks(magic missile), DR, invisibility, battlefield control and for divine casters, their AC itself. A 3/4 BAB class with MAD just isn't going to do that much good against Medium armor and a long duration buff spell.
Without Minsight a Monk can't even be hit by Magic Missile. Battlefield Control is often negated by Freedom of Movement so it's hardly useful against mid-level PCs, but even so by the 9th level the Monk has a 20% chance of ignoring any CC effect a Wizard can cast which puts him 20% higher than everyone else.

Which is what you're confused on. It's not that the Monk is superior to spellcasters, but he is the best thing there is to throw at a spellcaster other than yet another spellcaster.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pathfinder hates Monks and Guns! Or does it?
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2013, 12:58:37 PM »
I think there's one or two flaws there, largely stemming from the fact that this is a thread about Pathfinder. No TWF for monks, so the rogue has the advantage there (even if they've been horribly nerfed too) and ACF's have been superseded by the archetypes, so that means no Invisible Fist shenanigans.

And you still need strikingly good stats to equal full plate, which is a mess when Pathfinder, for some bizarre reason, made all physical stat boosts use one slot and all mental stat boosts use one slot. :banghead