The Role of the Fighter in a Party

[Zonugal]

So upon approaching the Fighter and all the wild alternate class features, variants and substitution levels what is the role of an optimized Fighter within an adventuring party?

Are they, through guidance and tradition, to be geared towards a strict focus on purely combat or does a Fighter's role include every facet of a battle?

How does the community reflect and respond to the Fighter's skills? Are the useful applications for skills like Craft or others?

Thoughts?

[Lycanthromancer]

They are best used as a source of income.

Allow fighter into group with full WBL.

Allow fighter to actually fight (and thus die).

Take WBL.

Repeat.

[Nachofan99]

They are best used as a source of income.

Allow fighter into group with full WBL.

Allow fighter to actually fight (and thus die).

Take WBL.

Repeat.

The same could be said of all non-Pun Pun characters, as all characters who are not Pun-Pun add nothing to the party in comparison to Pun-Pun.

If that's too much, the same could be said of all non-Tier 1 characters.

Rinse, repeat.

I'm sure what Lycanthromancer meant was that, if you're trying to pull off playing a more "iconic" style melee character in D&D 3.X, the Tome of Battle classes are simply superior to the Fighter class to mechanically do what non-casters need to do.  When you do have an optimized non-caster in a party that is not full of TO, their role tends to be damage or skill useage.

[Zonugal]

So is there any optimization to be found in putting ranks in Craft (Trapmaking), Craft (Poisonmaking), ect..?

[Mooncrow]

So is there any optimization to be found in putting ranks in Craft (Trapmaking), Craft (Poisonmaking), ect..?

Optimization?  Not really - there are more widely useful things you can do with those points.

That's not to say that you couldn't run a non-optimal character with those things, and even make them useful.  But if you really want to be a skillmonkey, well, skillmonkey classes are better at that type of thing. 

[Zonugal]

So is there any optimization to be found in putting ranks in Craft (Trapmaking), Craft (Poisonmaking), ect..?

Optimization?  Not really - there are more widely useful things you can do with those points.

That's not to say that you couldn't run a non-optimal character with those things, and even make them useful.  But if you really want to be a skillmonkey, well, skillmonkey classes are better at that type of thing.

Hmm... What are some quality skills to invest in? The big four that jump out at me are Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, and Ride.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Cross-class learning is key to a rich and fullfilling life?

All 4 of those have uses, though.

Jump: Qualify for Leap Attack; use Tiger Claw maneuvers and Battle Jump
Intimidate: Goes amazing with Zhentarim Fighter and Imperious Command feat for battlefield control.
Handle Animal: To raise powerful monsters.
Ride: To make a "Sir Charge-alot" build for massive damage.

I don't think straight Fighter 20 HAS any real role, though, usually you mix fighter with other stuff.  The only decent way to make a Fighter 20 would probably be a Dungeoncrasher Zhentarim Fighter.  You'd probably want a spiked chain or some other tripping reach weapon, use tripping, Stand Still feat, and demoralizing to control your threatened area and keep foes from reaching the casters, and slamming them into walls (with Shock Trooper) for massive damage when you just want them dead.  That's probably what a "typical" optimized Fighter 20 build would look like.

[Mooncrow]

Hmm... What are some quality skills to invest in? The big four that jump out at me are Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, and Ride.

Handle animal is potentially powerful, but requires a lot of time to make it work; it also uses cha, which makes it even less good.  Intimidate is solid, probably the best fighter class skill, Jump is also potentially really good, depending on the build - leap attack and battle jump builds specifically.  Ride in most cases isn't worth much; mounts tend to die fast.  If you really want to be a mounted fighter, you'll need a lot of investment into it, and fighter is not a very good chassis for it. 

Non-base fighter skills: Tumble is really strong for moving around the battlefield - the skilled city dweller ACF lets you swap ride for this, and you should.  It also lets you grab Gather Information instead of Handle Animal, which isn't quite as nice, but probably an upgrade. 

[SorO_Lost]

Really I see the Fighter as a feat using trickster. Something like Lockdown, or Shield Stunner.

Yes charging is a huge aspect for them,  because charging deals tons of damage and is readily accessible by everyone. The Fighter without Dungeoncrasher is honestly the worst charger in the game, with it sure useful. But hanging on to charging is to admit failure (like the monk). And while Lockdown can be readily done by anyone, lets face it's the only flavor-like thing that works for them; use feats to be useful.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Regardless of what specific tactics/ACF/feats are used, the fighter is just a meat shield for the casters.  He is there to mop up the weakened/trapped/helpless foes after the spells are cast.  The problem is that the fighter is not the best at this job and even less useful outside of combat.  In optimization, the fighter is usually a dip for BaB and a couple of feats.

[veekie]

Hmm, the party role is mostly thoroughly explored by the above posters. The fighter is a vehicle to deliver high hp damage via close combat. With the skills and ability score array, they would play at best a tertiary role in dealing with skill or utility challenges. They COULD run interference against purely melee threats with dumb threats(which would fight based on aggro), but can't really handle more than a round based with a melee threat.

Culturally, they make adequate backup thugs to scouting types(a rogue as the eye and a bunch of archer fighters for muscle), and for guarding places with little concealment. They do seem to be somewhat easier to train than other archetypes, and the ability requirements to make an adequate thug isn't hard to justify.

[Basket Burner]

They are best used as a source of income.

Allow fighter into group with full WBL.

Allow fighter to actually fight in a cage match with an Astral Construct (and thus die).

Take WBL.

Repeat.

Fixed.

Jokes aside, while an optimized Fighter is better than a non optimized one they still aren't going to bring much to the table. At best they're a generic DPS. And as anyone who has ever played a game that uses that term knows, if a DPS dies no one really cares because they are redundant and not especially important. They can at least be a good generic DPS, but even then other things are better. Trying to do other things will just result in you not being able to do your job, such as playing around with expensive, time consuming, low DC poisons that don't work 95% of the time or more.

The few skills that are good are also low DC stuff. Sure, you can make the DC 10 checks to manage your Magebred Warbeast Fleshraker easily, but at that point you're just running your own replacement character, unless of course you avoided falling into the trap of gimping your character for skills. And since it is only DC 10 (or 8, if not injured) anyone else can as well.

This is also true for Ride, though that is probably a good thing in that case as non class feature based mounts aren't going to keep up at mid and high levels anyways.

[Halinn]

A warforged fighter will outlast almost any character.



Because he sits at home with his craft (basketweaving) for infinity years.

[sirpercival]

A warforged fighter will outlast almost any character.



Because he sits at home with his craft (basketweaving) for infinity years.

Or, he can take over Teh Internets by taking Trophy Collector and Craft (Taxidermy) instead.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Fighter can entertain the Wizard's Familiar
... by cutting his food, with seeming Combat maneuvers.

Fighter can be mounted by the Druid's Animal Companion
... so the two can waltz un-hit across the battlefield (ride checks)
while the Artificer burns down the Castle, dragon and maiden.

[Basket Burner]

Fighter can be mounted by the Druid's Animal Companion

 

[X-Codes]

Fighter 6/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Swiftblade 9 or Fighter 6/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 5/Knight of the Raven 8.  Those are fighters that have a role in the party.

[Endarire]

Fighters get bonus feats as their class feature.  They don't get bonus feats every Fighter level.

Warblades, Crusaders, and Swordsages at least get 1 new maneuver known every level, even if they must trade for it.

Fighters have little going for them.  Psychic Warriors and martial adepts, however...

[midnight_v]

Fighters get bonus feats as their class feature.

Could be useful if all thebonus feats were = to class features.
Toughness and Improved Sunder not being equal to Robilar's Gambit or Shock Trooper.

Fighters role in the party according to the God hand book is to close with and melee the enemy.

[LordBlades]

Fighters role in the party according to the God hand book is to close with and melee the enemy.

Except the fighter is ill suited for both closing in (meium/heavy armor reduces speed, has no extra mobility options built in) and melee (his offensive and defensive potential are rather weak compared to equivalent CR monsters)