The Role of the Fighter in a Party

[midnight_v]

Note that I'm not contradicting you perse but I was specifically refering to:

Three Mountains [Style]
You are a master of fighting with powerful bludgeoning weapons.
Prerequisite: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (heavy mace, morningstar, or greatclub), STR 13
Benefit: If you strike the same creature twice in the same round with your heavy mace, morningstar, or greatclub, it must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or be nauseated by the pain for 1 round.

Don't know if anyone has ever tried to maximize that. Barbarians and Hexblades could get some use from it. Babrarians bacause of the variable strength score, Hexblades cause they just need SOMETHING to capitalize on plumeting your saves etc etc...
I guess depends on if good means "more than 50%"... in which case then you're correct.
The rest of it though is for the otherside of the argument, I just look at those challenges and I'm like damn the melee guy doesn't very well end those at all.

[Basket Burner]

I was thinking of Brutal Strike, which has a DC of 10 + your PA damage, meaning it either saves on a 2 or you kill it from the damage. And you can only use it once a round so it isn't as if you could get a bunch of attacks and hope they get a 1.

That one is better, but essentially forces you to waste three feats and use a bad weapon to get it and even then it's a single target one round effect. I still consider that weak area control.

[X-Codes]

Animated Object, Colossal
Brass Dragon, Young adult Large Dragon (Fire)
Couatl Large Outsider (Native)
Cryohydra, Nine-Headed Huge Magical Beast (Cold)
Demon, Bebilith Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Formian Myrmarch Large Outsider (Lawful, Extraplanar)
Giant, Fire Large Giant (Fire)
Golem, Clay Large Construct
Hydra, Eleven-Headed Huge Magical Beast
Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan Vermin
Naga, Guardian Large Aberration
Pyrohydra, Nine-Headed Huge Magical Beast (Fire)
Rakshasa Medium Outsider (Native)
Red Dragon, Juvenile Large Dragon (Fire)
Salamander, Noble Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)
Silver Dragon, Juvenile Large Dragon (Cold)
White Dragon, Adult Large Dragon (Cold)

So... back to the begining
What is the fighters (melee guy) role in those fights?
From where I'm sitting the melee guy isn't the one who answers any of those questions.
Its the FC (Full Caster) that answers those questions/threats, if those questions are to be answered at all.
I have to yield the DPR arguement, I guess. The challenges there, that are melee's are too hard core for a fighter to melee, the ones that are casters... don't "HAVE" to confront him in melee at all, unless the melee has some highly specialized detection and damamge delivery system.

...really?  None of them?

Colossal Animated Object - Very low damage output and AC, just with a massive stack of HP and a battery of immunities.  Might be problematic if it's something like a giant curtain or carpet or something, in which case the Fighter should get a FoM buff thrown on him before having the two duke it out.  Otherwise, buffs are probably not even all that necessary.

Couatl - The only problem is the Flight.  If the Fighter has a flying mount, he can easily one-round this thing.  Nothing in it's spell list is particularly threatening to the Fighter.

Clay Golem - Low HP, low AC, low damage output, tons of immunities.  Fighter can do a lot here.

Rakshasa - Same deal as the Couatl, only it doesn't even fly and has absurd SR (even Assay Spell Resistance doesn't guarantee you can punch through it).

Also against each of the Dragons, the Fighter has, at the very least, the task of screening for the casters, and doesn't require a full round action to summon first and can probably last more than one round against them in melee.

EDIT: Granted, I'm not really talking about a core Fighter 10.  Those really don't have much to offer, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a ToB class or full caster to deal with these things.

[midnight_v]

...really?  None of them?

None of them... what? I find that vague but I'll go with what I think you mean.
Animated object Hp 256, average Dpr:27
Fighter with 18 con and 22 str: 10hd+40con=99hp Dpr? What? lets give him 75.
He wins as you said as long as this thing doesn't grapple him outside of AoO range, or whatever.
Gonna take 4 rounds to kill.
Going to deal the fighter 3(27dmg) slams 81 dmg, even at that... the damn thing has trample so it can very well roll the fighter, and hit others.
Couatls:

The only problem is the Flight.

The problem is the sorcerer casting coupled with at will detect thoughts.
Flight, Invisibility, DC 20 will save or be "Shunted" to the plane of "dicks" or whatever.
Also... those typical spells known? Vary, just saying.
Pauses to see if I've been ninja'd Nope!

Rakshasha:
Again... typical spells known, means you'll likely cast rakshasha that have a variaty of spells known.
But they do have 52 hit point.... so I'll give you that one. Anyone should walk right up and smack a rakshasha to death. However... that is a leader style class, and this is one of those "cr=odd" creatures. Ymmv
Again. Anyone can smack him down... empowerd fireball kills him too.

Dragons:
We know they're wrong. . . I apologize for bringing them up. they were on the list.
Your "Screen for the casters" is janky as always... because... how do they do that?

[X-Codes]

Animated object Hp 256, average Dpr:27
Fighter with 18 con and 22 str: 10hd+40con=99hp Dpr? What? lets give him 75.
He wins as you said as long as this thing doesn't grapple him outside of AoO range, or whatever.
Gonna take 4 rounds to kill.
Going to deal the fighter 3(27dmg) slams 81 dmg, even at that... the damn thing has trample so it can very well roll the fighter, and hit others.

Like I said, FoM.  It IS a touch-range spell, you know.  Also, it *might* have trample.

Couatls:

The only problem is the Flight.

The problem is the sorcerer casting coupled with at will detect thoughts.
Flight, Invisibility, DC 20 will save or be "Shunted" to the plane of "dicks" or whatever.
Also... those typical spells known? Vary, just saying.

Glitterdust?  Faerie Fire?  Launch Item with a Tanglefoot Bag?  Also, Couatls will NEVER use Plane Shift offensively, because they're Touch spells, and Touch spells means the Couatl's gotta get into melee, and they're incredibly fragile, like I said before.

Further, typical means "This is the CR 10 spell list, this is what it will cast if it's ever printed in a module or just pulled out of the DMG on the fly."

Rakshasha:
Again... typical spells known, means you'll likely cast rakshasha that have a variaty of spells known.
But they do have 52 hit point.... so I'll give you that one. Anyone should walk right up and smack a rakshasha to death. However... that is a leader style class, and this is one of those "cr=odd" creatures. Ymmv
Again. Anyone can smack him down... empowerd fireball kills him too.

Look again.  SR 27 at CR 10.  Sure, you can throw an Orb or something, but the point is that whatever you do, this is going to take a lot more effort for a Caster to take down than a Fighter.

Dragons:
We know they're wrong. . . I apologize for bringing them up. they were on the list.
Your "Screen for the casters" is janky as always... because... how do they do that?

Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon = if Dragon comes within 30' of the caster, he gets the pain.

[midnight_v]

Like I said, FoM.  It IS a touch-range spell, you know.  Also, it *might* have trample

So you're saying "when facing animated object that has NONE of the powers of an animated object? Sigh...

Trample (Ex)
 
An animated object of at least Large size and with a hardness of at least 10 can trample creatures two or more sizes smaller than itself, dealing damage equal to the object’s slam damage + 1½ times its Strength bonus. Opponents who do not make attacks of opportunity against the object can attempt Reflex saves (DC 10 + ½ object’s HD + object’s Str modifier) to halve the damage.
   

Its Colossal... so it HAS trample... no *might* about it. Thats an ability it totally has.
Meanwhile...
 FoM much like:

Glitterdust?  Faerie Fire

Are things that the casters provide. . . that has nothing to do with the fighters role.
Also... thats an at will invisibilty, that means this is officially an ambush monster, X-codes.
Things with at will inviisbility are invisible more often than not, cheshire cat style...
So it really jolly well can planeshift you before you get an action then fly away, skirmishing for the win.

Look again.  SR 27 at CR 10. Sure, you can throw an Orb or something, but the point is that whatever you do, this is going to take a lot more effort for a Caster to take down than a Fighter

The Orb spells are the most common choice for damage dealing builds;anyone who tries to make a build that kills with magic damge is either packing assay resistance or throwing orbs. Pretty common stuff.

or something

There are a huge amount of things that are SR:No, so I'm gonna exercize my right to disagree with you there.

I don't wanna mince dragons with you, or anyone for that matter, but... okay:

Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon = if Dragon comes within 30' of the caster, he gets the pain.

You think he's supposed to protect the wizard with that then?
Both Dragons on that list have 40ft cone breath weapons, and should have fly-by attack if the things built with any degree of reasonabliltiy.
This is the most telling example imho... If you're idea is to protect the wizard there, somethings wrong.
8d10 or 45damage might actually be enough to KILL the wizard you're supposed to be protecting, in which case he's better off having nearly any other speed bump or teleporting away when he see's the dragon till he has time to prepare the perfect offense/defense package...

I mean... no offense, but it seems like youre saying the fighters role is as a speed bump or a spell sink that the wizard might be given time to actually deal with the challenges.
Which... in many ways is what I was saying all along. 
Are you saying you honestly think the fighter is capable of dealing with level apprpriate challenges? Or are you just arguing for the sake of?
Help me understand your position. I don't want to generate any angst here.

[Basket Burner]

It's funny because none of the CR 10s are especially impressive, yet most or all of them check and wall that Fighter nicely.

[liquid150]

This thread is priceless. The results of the SGT are known, and the fighter is an epic failure.

Here's an important point: just because the fighter can win because he is given help from a caster does not mean that the fighter has contributed. When you can get the same results from buffing an animal companion, or your familiar for shits and giggles, this means that the fighter is not really contributing in any way that can be considered appropriate for a PC.

[midnight_v]

This thread is priceless. The results of the SGT are known, and the fighter is an epic failure.

Here's an important point: just because the fighter can win because he is given help from a caster does not mean that the fighter has contributed. When you can get the same results from buffing an animal companion, or your familiar for shits and giggles, this means that the fighter is not really contributing in any way that can be considered appropriate for a PC.

So... how do you fix it.
I play the tome classes.
Some people play other homebrew, while some feel like "The Warblade" ftw.
What do you think?

[X-Codes]

Like I said, FoM.  It IS a touch-range spell, you know.  Also, it *might* have trample

So you're saying "when facing animated object that has NONE of the powers of an animated object? Sigh...

Trample (Ex)
 
An animated object of at least Large size and with a hardness of at least 10 can trample creatures two or more sizes smaller than itself, dealing damage equal to the object’s slam damage + 1½ times its Strength bonus. Opponents who do not make attacks of opportunity against the object can attempt Reflex saves (DC 10 + ½ object’s HD + object’s Str modifier) to halve the damage.
   

Its Colossal... so it HAS trample... no *might* about it. Thats an ability it totally has.

Wow, talk about selective reading.  IF IT HAS HARDNESS 10.  So, if it's made from, say, wood, or glass, or cloth, or bronze, or stone, and it's a colossal animated object, IT DOES NOT HAVE TRAMPLE.

Meanwhile...
 FoM much like:

Glitterdust?  Faerie Fire

Are things that the casters provide. . . that has nothing to do with the fighters role.
Also... thats an at will invisibilty, that means this is officially an ambush monster, X-codes.
Things with at will inviisbility are invisible more often than not, cheshire cat style...
So it really jolly well can planeshift you before you get an action then fly away, skirmishing for the win.

Nice ignore on the Tanglefoot Bag.  You might also want to check out MIC page 161 or 216 while you're at it: anyone can buy all the Glitterdust or Faerie Fire they could ever want for 450 to 4kgp, no UMD required.  As for spotting it in the first place, someone in the party should have See Invisible up for just that purpose.

Look again.  SR 27 at CR 10. Sure, you can throw an Orb or something, but the point is that whatever you do, this is going to take a lot more effort for a Caster to take down than a Fighter

The Orb spells are the most common choice for damage dealing builds;anyone who tries to make a build that kills with magic damge is either packing assay resistance or throwing orbs. Pretty common stuff.

or something

There are a huge amount of things that are SR:No, so I'm gonna exercize my right to disagree with you there.

For a damage-dealing build, the orb works if you hit, but Assay Spell Resistance still has your spells fizzling 30% of the time.  For a typical GOD build, you need to use a spell that ignores SR, which is less common, and your Orb probably won't one-shot the thing.

I don't wanna mince dragons with you, or anyone for that matter, but... okay:

Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon = if Dragon comes within 30' of the caster, he gets the pain.

You think he's supposed to protect the wizard with that then?
Both Dragons on that list have 40ft cone breath weapons, and should have fly-by attack if the things built with any degree of reasonabliltiy.
This is the most telling example imho... If you're idea is to protect the wizard there, somethings wrong.
8d10 or 45damage might actually be enough to KILL the wizard you're supposed to be protecting, in which case he's better off having nearly any other speed bump or teleporting away when he see's the dragon till he has time to prepare the perfect offense/defense package...

This is why the Mass Resist Energy spell is awesome.  Suddenly, 45 damage becomes 25 damage or 15 damage or maybe even no damage at all with a successful save, and it lasts for-freaking-ever.  So the dragon's breath weapon is resisted, the Fighter makes melee attacks risky, at best, and the Wizard pings the thing to death with Orb spells as he and the Fighter close in on it.

I mean... no offense, but it seems like youre saying the fighters role is as a speed bump or a spell sink that the wizard might be given time to actually deal with the challenges.
Which... in many ways is what I was saying all along. 
Are you saying you honestly think the fighter is capable of dealing with level apprpriate challenges? Or are you just arguing for the sake of?
Help me understand your position. I don't want to generate any angst here.

Ok, first, there is really no such thing in D&D as a level-appropriate challenge for a single character.  The entire game is based on adventuring parties.

Second, the Fighter isn't a spell sink, it's an effective investment the Casters can make in order to make their spells last longer.  How many spells would it take, for example, for a Cleric, Wizard, or Druid to take down that colossal animated object?  I'm sure an optimized blaster can take it out in 2 or 3 spells, but it's a lot more efficient spell-wise to just throw a Freedom of Movement on the Fighter and have him duke it out with the thing while everyone else flies out of reach with Air Walk, Overland Flight, Alter Self, or some other all-day flying buff.  Against the Lillend, all the Wizard has to do is spot it with his all-day See Invisible, hit it with one of those glitter rocks, and then the Fighter one-rounds it.

Also, when it comes to encounters like the Dragon, the Fighter is, basically, the speed bump.  Dragons are fucking HARD, and you need something that can stand up to them for more than a round in order for the casters to take the thing out.  If there's no fighter there, then the Dragon just plain eats the Cleric and one-rounds the Wizard in melee (TO shit aside, of course).

[Basket Burner]

If I had to venture a guess, I would say that it involves putting out significantly more damage than random pets, being as he is a full PC and all. It would also involve being more self sufficient, which is a lot harder to pull off. But if he does outperform pets he might be able to justify his costs.

Is that a correct assessment?

[midnight_v]

If there's no fighter there, then the Dragon just plain eats the Cleric and one-rounds the Wizard in melee

You're lying. . . the cleric can out melee a fighter that isn't built to one shot things.
as you said:

Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon = if Dragon comes within 30' of the caster, he gets the pain.

So you know, it's not just eating the cleric.

The rest of what you said is annoying because:

Nice ignore on the Tanglefoot Bag.  You might also want to check out MIC page 161 or 216 while you're at it: anyone can buy all the Glitterdust or Faerie Fire they could ever want for 450 to 4kgp, no UMD required.  As for spotting it in the first place, someone in the party should have See Invisible up for just that purpose.   

I ignored that shit because what you can buy with wealth if pretty irrelavant, for the purposes of our discussion.
If anyone can do it, then by definition its not a "role" that youve taken on.
You've fallen into the npc trap. A warrior could do that to. . . so could a commoner or expert. Thats not the role of the fighter really, or if it is "gadgeteer" standby for "contributes nothing but wealth to the party"

Ok, first, there is really no such thing in D&D as a level-appropriate challenge for a single character.  The entire game is based on adventuring parties.

Okay... you know there's another way of looking at it. A PARTY of melee fighters don't have the things your talking about either, or they do, and so do a party of "experts" etc.
So what you're doing there is moving the goal post. People have explained how it is there is a level app. Challenge for a single player, you can also but it into the handy Ecl calculator in the srd:
ttp://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

but that doesn't matter so much because what we were discussing is "What does he bring to the table" aka "Whats his role"...
 So far all you've said is:
Provide Pc wealth related goods: (in which case almost anything else will do)
Benefit from buffs: (which again almost anything else would do)

So pretty much without delving into the red herring land of specific example after specific example:
What would you say his role is, aside from the 2 things above that anyone can do.

If there's no fighter there, then the Dragon just plain eats the Cleric and one-rounds the Wizard in melee   

[X-Codes]

If there's no fighter there, then the Dragon just plain eats the Cleric and one-rounds the Wizard in melee

You're lying. . . the cleric can out melee a fighter that isn't built to one shot things.

as you said:

Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon = if Dragon comes within 30' of the caster, he gets the pain.

So you know, it's not just eating the cleric.

Really?  Does the Cleric have Close Combat Fighting?  I've yet to see a single Cleric build that actually packs that feat.

The rest of what you said is annoying because:

Nice ignore on the Tanglefoot Bag.  You might also want to check out MIC page 161 or 216 while you're at it: anyone can buy all the Glitterdust or Faerie Fire they could ever want for 450 to 4kgp, no UMD required.  As for spotting it in the first place, someone in the party should have See Invisible up for just that purpose.   

I ignored that shit because what you can buy with wealth if pretty irrelavant, for the purposes of our discussion.
If anyone can do it, then by definition its not a "role" that youve taken on.
You've fallen into the npc trap. A warrior could do that to. . . so could a commoner or expert. Thats not the role of the fighter really, or if it is "gadgeteer" standby for "contributes nothing but wealth to the party"

No, what you can buy with wealth is absolutely relevant for the purposes of our discussion.  Low-rent shit like Faerie Fire is all over the fucking place by the time level 10 rolls around.  You have to actively avoid CO in order to NOT have some effect that deals with Invisibility at this level.

Ok, first, there is really no such thing in D&D as a level-appropriate challenge for a single character.  The entire game is based on adventuring parties.

Okay... you know there's another way of looking at it. A PARTY of melee fighters don't have the things your talking about either, or they do, and so do a party of "experts" etc.
So what you're doing there is moving the goal post. People have explained how it is there is a level app. Challenge for a single player, you can also but it into the handy Ecl calculator in the srd:
ttp://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

Are you being intentionally dense?  The stereotypical adventuring party isn't a bunch of Fighter 10's.

but that doesn't matter so much because what we were discussing is "What does he bring to the table" aka "Whats his role"...
 So far all you've said is:
Provide Pc wealth related goods: (in which case almost anything else will do)
Benefit from buffs: (which again almost anything else would do)

So pretty much without delving into the red herring land of specific example after specific example:
What would you say his role is, aside from the 2 things above that anyone can do.

Ok, how long does it take for a Cleric under the effects of FoM and no other spells to take down a colossal animated object?  The answer is: IT DOESN'T.

Yes, anything can benefit from buffs.  The thing is, a 14 Con Cleric and an 18 Con Fighter are not exactly the same after you throw Bear's Endurance on them, and it's completely fucking retarded to say otherwise.

[midnight_v]

Are you being intentionally dense? 

No, but I think you are.
You're doing everything in your power keep the fighter from being calculated, accurately.
You've also failed to define the role, as requested.
I'm going to stop talking to you about this now. You'll win through perserverance, alone.
I've made my points. You're haven't done anything to advance the conversation really.
We're still at same place regarding roles. End conversation with X-codes

[Zonugal]

So we know the generic Fighter has many a flaw but what about an upgrade like this:

Goliath Fighter 6 with the Thug, Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim substitutions/ACFs? Focus on bull-rushing and demoralization?

What does that bring to possibly expanding the Fighter's role in an adventuring party?

[Basket Burner]

So we know the generic Fighter has many a flaw but what about an upgrade like this:

Goliath Fighter 6 with the Thug, Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim substitutions/ACFs? Focus on bull-rushing and demoralization?

What does that bring to possibly expanding the Fighter's role in an adventuring party?

So what are you saying? He gets all of those at once, without the usual cost?

[Mooncrow]

So we know the generic Fighter has many a flaw but what about an upgrade like this:

Goliath Fighter 6 with the Thug, Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim substitutions/ACFs? Focus on bull-rushing and demoralization?

What does that bring to possibly expanding the Fighter's role in an adventuring party?

So what are you saying? He gets all of those at once, without the usual cost?

Dungeoncrasher is 2nd and 6th, Zhentarim is 3rd, 5th, and 9th, and Thug is 1st - there's no overlap that I see.

[Basket Burner]

So we know the generic Fighter has many a flaw but what about an upgrade like this:

Goliath Fighter 6 with the Thug, Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim substitutions/ACFs? Focus on bull-rushing and demoralization?

What does that bring to possibly expanding the Fighter's role in an adventuring party?

So what are you saying? He gets all of those at once, without the usual cost?

Dungeoncrasher is 2nd and 6th, Zhentarim is 3rd, 5th, and 9th, and Thug is 1st - there's no overlap that I see.

So it does have the usual cost then?

[ImperatorK]

God. And you're the one saying that other people have trouble with reading comprehension...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dungeoncrasher ha a cost but is worth it.  Zhentarim Fighter is basically just free bonuses any Fighter can have if they don't mind the association.  Thug, I'd skip.  It has one hell of a cost for pretty crappy benefit.

Hit and Run Fighter is much better if doing a dextrous light armored Fighter, and can also be combined with Zhent and Dungeoncrasher.

I still think looking at it as a "Fighter 20" is silly, though.  3E has a wonderful (for noncaster humans, at least) multiclassing system, I don't think I've made a noncaster single classed since the first time I played and learned the game.  Nothing forces you to stay single classed, and it's not a very good idea to do so.  And that goes for all the martial classes.