Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread

[Libertad]

Excuse me, but even tough PF does gives a lot of buffs to spellcasters, the end result is still weaker than a 3E caster.

Why? Because shapechange and wish that's why. They may be just two spells, but they were two spells behind pretty much all of the top borked magic. PF Wish no longer can create magic items, and PF shapechange no longer allows you to cherry pick abilities from any monster from any book. And those two combined were worth infinitely more than all of the boosts PF has given casters so far.

But an awful lot of games (the majority I'd say) never even reach 17th level.

Overall Pathfinder spellcasters more than make up for this with new spells, not needing to pay experience points for magic items, increased hit die, and some favored class options for certain races which grant "one additional spell known" for spontaneous casters.

So if you don't ever reach the point where you get Shapechange and Wish, it wouldn't be unreasonable to view PF primary casters as being stronger.

[oslecamo]

But an awful lot of games (the majority I'd say) never even reach 17th level.

If you need to wait that long to get either shapechange or wish, you're not really trying. There's the classic "call/summon and enslave low-level monster with that as an SLA", or you could just buy a scroll relatively cheap.

Oh, and gate got nerfed as well, so you don't get solars/great wyrms as your pets ridiculously early as well.

A few extra spell knowns and HP isn't really much when compared to the insanity you could pull out of those three spells as soon as the casters reached single-digits mid levels.

[Raineh Daze]

They're buffed if you're not relying on cheese and things that the DM more or less has to let you pull off.

[StreamOfTheSky]

But an awful lot of games (the majority I'd say) never even reach 17th level.

If you need to wait that long to get either shapechange or wish, you're not really trying. There's the classic "call/summon and enslave low-level monster with that as an SLA", or you could just buy a scroll relatively cheap.

Oh, and gate got nerfed as well, so you don't get solars/great wyrms as your pets ridiculously early as well.

A few extra spell knowns and HP isn't really much when compared to the insanity you could pull out of those three spells as soon as the casters reached single-digits mid levels.

Yeah, most of us don't play at Theoretical Optimization level bullshit.  While irritating, the blatantly lulzbroken stuff has never been the biggest issue, simply because they don't happen in real games.

PF buffed casters at the other, actual acceptable levels of optimization.  And I would argue Paragon Surge, especially once you can Spell Perfection it for free quicken, rivals those shenanigans from 3E anyway.  Cast all the spells!  On the fly!

[Sinfire Titan]

If you need to wait that long to get either shapechange or wish, you're not really trying. There's the classic "call/summon and enslave low-level monster with that as an SLA", or you could just buy a scroll relatively cheap.

Oh, and gate got nerfed as well, so you don't get solars/great wyrms as your pets ridiculously early as well.

Game-breaking power isn't the only measuring stick, especially not the top 5% that only sees play in a very small subset of gamers. Nerfs like that are actually acceptable, but the fact is that Paizo buffed casters who are played in the 30%–85% range and then started nerfing the 50%–100% range on noncasters.

While it was difficult to play a noncaster in a mildly-optimized campaign in 3.5, PF is making it outright pointless by printing abilities that make it trivial to replace/negate the noncasters and nerfing their few good tricks.

[Unbeliever]

"Though shalt play a Wizard or a Cleric or a caster.  Anything else is an offense in our eyes." 

-- Paizo

Alternatively,

"It was really a mistake to even bother printing material for Monks, Rogues, Fighters, etc.  We are doing our best to rectify this mistake through errata." 

-- Paizo

[oslecamo]

Yeah, most of us don't play at Theoretical Optimization level bullshit.  While irritating, the blatantly lulzbroken stuff has never been the biggest issue, simply because they don't happen in real games.

They don't happen in 3.5 games because the DMs don't allow it for being too strong. Simple as that.

If you  consider that something on PF is too strong for casters, then you're completely free to nerf/ban it, just as 3.5 groups have banned wish/shapechange/gate/many others shenigans for years now.

PF buffed casters at the other, actual acceptable levels of optimization.  And I would argue Paragon Surge, especially once you can Spell Perfection it for free quicken, rivals those shenanigans from 3E anyway.  Cast all the spells!  On the fly!

Already doable in 3.5.

While it was difficult to play a noncaster in a mildly-optimized campaign in 3.5, PF is making it outright pointless by printing abilities that make it trivial to replace/negate the noncasters and nerfing their few good tricks.

You're totally right! PF druids rock on with Wildshape and magebred fleshrakers! Oh wait, they don't. Wildshape got nerfed, and druids no longer get super pets that get buffed for free every couple years.

PF mages pick Incantrix! Shadowcraft mage! Initiate of the sevenfold veil! Initiate of Mystra! Planar sheperd! With reserves of strength and earth power and divine metamagic and oh my, nope, just kidding. None of that in PF. And yes I had players requesting to use all of that over my many years as DM, and also saw groups using those (or at least gloating about having used those).

Playing noncasters in a "mildly-optimized" campaign in 3.5 already was pointless, it was just that DMs got used to hax down caster options and/or buff noncasters themselves to make it at least resemble like a fair game (or many times they just didn't care, or the caster focused on support, or whatever).

Really, please stop pretending that the zillion online guides about 3.5 caster tricks and combos suddenly disappeared. They're still there. They're still mostly on a completely diferent level than PF mages. And PF noncasters still can kill stuff that's vulnerable to HP damage with pointy sticks, which is what 3.5 noncasters were doing all along whitout houserule support or ToB.

[Raineh Daze]

Yeah, most of us don't play at Theoretical Optimization level bullshit.  While irritating, the blatantly lulzbroken stuff has never been the biggest issue, simply because they don't happen in real games.

They don't happen in 3.5 games because the DMs don't allow it for being too strong. Simple as that.

If you  consider that something on PF is too strong for casters, then you're completely free to nerf/ban it, just as 3.5 groups have banned wish/shapechange/gate/many others shenigans for years now.

More or less everything aside from some of the spells, then?

[SorO_Lost]

PF nerfed casters?
Magical Lineage, Spell Perfection, Arcane Concordance, Stack Metamagic,  Channel the Gift, Samsaran's Mystic Past Life, & Metamagic Focus (3rd party, but pfsrd'd). And that's just from a previous Metamagic discussion we've had. Actual Spells & Class Abilities not withstanding. Spell wise, I know of PF's Wings of Cover, Call of the Void. And you can't forget about the ever useful Skinsend which combined with Alchemist & Touch Injection doubles as an offensive Spell. So yeah, I don't believe it. I haven't even read the PFSRD and can readily link those things.

Anyway, my contribution.

Demon Mother's Mask

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot Head; Price 3,600 gp; Weight 1 lb.

 Description:
 This primitive hyena-like mask is usually made of leather, but some are made of soft metal like copper or even carved out of the skull of an animal. You gain a +2 competence bonus on Handle Animal and Heal checks. You can smell when nearby creatures are in heat or otherwise especially fertile (creatures such as humans that can breed any time of year always smell fertile unless they are barren).

If Lamashtu is your patron, the mask counts as a holy symbol and a hole for a third eye appears in the mask’s forehead. You may use summon monster II once per day to summon a fiendish hyena, which obeys you as if you shared a common language. You may interbreed with animals that are within one size category of your size, usually creating (if you are a humanoid) animal-humanoid creatures such as gnolls or lizardfolk, or sometimes natural lycanthropes prone to live in hybrid form.
 
Construction
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, detect animals or plants, polymorph, summon monster II, creator must have at least 5 ranks in Handle Animal and Heal; Cost 1,800 gp

[Wrex]

...I don't have the words to appropriately explain my levels of confusion and rage.

[Nanshork]

That is what I expect out of an item dedicated to Lamashtu.

[Atmo]

Anyway, my contribution.

Demon Mother's Mask

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot Head; Price 3,600 gp; Weight 1 lb.

 Description:
 This primitive hyena-like mask is usually made of leather, but some are made of soft metal like copper or even carved out of the skull of an animal. You gain a +2 competence bonus on Handle Animal and Heal checks. You can smell when nearby creatures are in heat or otherwise especially fertile (creatures such as humans that can breed any time of year always smell fertile unless they are barren).

If Lamashtu is your patron, the mask counts as a holy symbol and a hole for a third eye appears in the mask’s forehead. You may use summon monster II once per day to summon a fiendish hyena, which obeys you as if you shared a common language. You may interbreed with animals that are within one size category of your size, usually creating (if you are a humanoid) animal-humanoid creatures such as gnolls or lizardfolk, or sometimes natural lycanthropes prone to live in hybrid form.
 
Construction
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, detect animals or plants, polymorph, summon monster II, creator must have at least 5 ranks in Handle Animal and Heal; Cost 1,800 gp

I... er, you... like, this thing... Damn.

[ImperatorK]

Just one size category, tho?

[Raineh Daze]

Just one size category, tho?

What, you can't find Enlarge Person or something?

[zook1shoe]

3600gp? Holy shit!

does it give stats for the new breed?

[SolEiji]

3600gp? Holy shit!

does it give stats for the new breed?

Clearly any result would have the Abomination subtype.  As would the player who bought the thing.

[Libertad]

Clearly Paizo's trying to expand into the Erotic Role-Play demographic.

[TiaC]

Not content with taking players from D&D's market share, Paizo has decided to make White Wolf its next target.

Also, Humans aren't fertile year-round at all.

[Libertad]

Also, Humans aren't fertile year-round at all.

Your knowledge of biology is interfering with my masturbation fantasies.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Oh that's where Kung-Fu Panda comes from.