Tashalatora Smacker and Gauntlets?

[13 Chain Blood Spider]

I've been doing some reading for Tashalatora Monk/Psychic Warrior builds, and I discovered some of interest here. However, I'm confused about how the Heavy Gauntlets interact with the Monk's Unarmed Strike. For example, according to one build... 

A Monk's Unarmed Strike at level 20 is 2d10.
 
With Improved Natural Attack or Fanged Ring, 2d10 increases to 4d8 because a Large Monk 20 deals 4d8 base for his Unarmed Strike.

With Powerful Build to hold Large Gauntlets, that goes up to 6d8.

With Heavy Gauntlets from Magic of Faerun, that goes up to 8d8.

The bolded part confuses me. How do gauntlets let you deal EXTRA damage when using them for unarmed strike? The exact wording for Gauntlets in the PHB is...

This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

So by RAW, there doesn't seem to be anything about ADDING the gauntlet's damage to your unarmed attacks--it seems like you INSTEAD deal the gauntlet's damage (1d3 for a Medium creature, 1d4 for a Large).

Furthermore, the Heavy Weapon damage progression chart indicates that weapons that deal 1d4 damage (i.e. Large gauntlets) move up to 1d6 damage, not the 2d8 damage it would have to deal for 6d8 base damage to move up to 8d8 base damage, even assuming that gauntlet damage and unarmed strike damage stack.

Am I missing something here? Were they referring to a different type of Gauntlet weapon? How is that unarmed strike damage supposed to progress with Gauntlets?

[Prime32]

I'm guessing "heavy" weapons count as one size larger? I couldn't find them on a skim of MoF.

[13 Chain Blood Spider]

I'm guessing "heavy" weapons count as one size larger? I couldn't find them on a skim of MoF.

The Heavy Weapon sidebar is on Magic of Faerun, pg. 179 (under the Magic Items chapter, in the Special Materials section). As far as I can tell, they seem to boost damage as though the weapon were one size larger, but doesn't explicitly say so.

[SorO_Lost]

Fun find; Hizagkuur (pg179) is +1,500gp to add +2 damage.

Pretty cheap source of "magical" damage while creatures don't sport Resistance to everything.
Example; +2 Hizagkuur Greatsword deals 2d6+1, +1 fire, +1 electricity and only costs 5,500 & change, vs a +3's little over 18k.


Edit - Hmm, noticed the 8d8 damage there. Are you sure that's accurate?
See, 2d10 at Medium is Monk cap, if 1d10=2d8 then 4d8 sounds true, not 6d8.
Progression to Huge isn't upgrading your Monk d10, it's based on your Large damage. So...
Progression A 2d8->3d8 per SRD: You would have 5d8 @Huge.
Progression B d8->d6->d8 Per A @lower lvls & ELH's Dragon tables: 8d6 @Huge.
A is an assumption the progression remains true, add a die is pretty easy to remember.
B on the other hand doesn't actually follow A's set up at all (claws are d6 based but dragon advancement is wonky).

Either way, that 8d8 you came up with isn't in any text I know of. I'd like to think the consensus is 7d8 at Colossal (M2d10>L4d8>H5d8>G6d8>C7d8) but we may not have one.

[littha]

I personally use gauntlets like that in my games but I am fairly sure that WotC's stance was that a monk 20 hitting people with gauntlets did 1d3 damage...

[13 Chain Blood Spider]

Edit - Hmm, noticed the 8d8 damage there. Are you sure that's accurate?
See, 2d10 at Medium is Monk cap, if 1d10=2d8 then 4d8 sounds true, not 6d8.
Progression to Huge isn't upgrading your Monk d10, it's based on your Large damage. So...
Progression A 2d8->3d8 per SRD: You would have 5d8 @Huge.
Progression B d8->d6->d8 Per A @lower lvls & ELH's Dragon tables: 8d6 @Huge.
A is an assumption the progression remains true, add a die is pretty easy to remember.
B on the other hand doesn't actually follow A's set up at all (claws are d6 based but dragon advancement is wonky).

Either way, that 8d8 you came up with isn't in any text I know of. I'd like to think the consensus is 7d8 at Colossal (M2d10>L4d8>H5d8>G6d8>C7d8) but we may not have one.

Quoting directly from the link which is in the OP...

Half GiantTashalotora of Smack

Monk2/Pw10/Warshaper1/SM6/Pw1

1: TWF Monk1: Monastic Training pw
Monk2: Combat Reflexes
3: OTWF PW1: Ex Wpn Prof- Heavy Gauntlets
PW2: Mantled Warrior- Natural Mantle

6: Tashalatora
PW5: Superior Unarmed Strike

9: Practiced Manifester
PW8: Don Mantle

12: Iron Will
WS1: Morphic Weapons

15: ITWF

PW11: Robillar's Gambit
18: GTWF

Necessary Powers

1: Expansion
1: Offensive Precognition
2: Psionic Lion's Charge
3: Vampiric X
4: Metamorphosis
5: Anticipatory Strike
6: Dispelling Buffer

I really was interested in putting together something that could make good use of the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona. 3.0 had an interesting array of Psychic Warriors that actually were unarmed fighters. That disappeared in version 3.5 without resorting to Claws of the Beast and whatnot. This version as listed is pretty reasonable, getting

20d8+Con Mod HP
BAB:15
Fort: 15
Refl: 8
Will: 13 (11+2 Iron Will)
20th manifester level with Practiced Manifester (17th without)
6th Level powers known (1)
20th Level Monk Unarmed, Flurry, and AC bonus with a Monk's Belt (shoring up two levels).
Evasion.
Powerful Build.

This design assumes a few things: Unearthed Arcana level adjust buyout for one level, using a Monk's Belt, a Fanged Ring, Vampiric Weapon Power (liberties taken depending on GM, independent research), and *keen, Impact ?* Body Feeder, or various other healing per hit enchant/spells/powers.

You can net the same numbers with Human and Monkey Grip feat.

This is the more offensive version I had in mind, utilizing the TWF tree to net extra attacks. The reason for this is that the build implements Heavy Gauntlets, and you are unable to Flurry with them. Redundant... to a point...>8D. We'll get to that later though. This build is all about maxing out that juicy 2d10 Base Unarmed Damage you get at Monk 20th. I'll cut to the chase-

Unarmed Damage at Monk 20: 2d10
Improved Natural Attack/Fanged Ring: 4d8
Powerful Build, Gauntlets: 6d8
Heavy Gauntlets: 8d8
Polymorph Large: 12d8
Polymorph Huge: 16d8
Expansion 1: 24d8
Expansion2: 32d8
Morphic Weapons: 48d8


6d8 +Str Mod base damage in antimagic zones.

He seems to be assuming that Gauntlets ADD to your Unarmed Strike Damage, which is one of the 2 sources of my confusion.

[SorO_Lost]

Oh god, he posted that? >.>

Look at his progression there.
Medium: 2d10
Medium+ Items: 8d8
Large (via polymorph): 12d6 (+4d8)
Huge (via polymorph): 16d8 (+4d8)
Gargantuan (via huge+expansion): 24d8 (+8d8)
Colossal (via huge+augmented expansion): 32d8 (+8d8)
Colossal+ (via morphic weapon): 48d8 (+16d8)
It seems like he is trying to say different size increasing effects are multipliers for die size more than anything else as well.

I'd stick to the mentioned +die per size category which follows the die progression noted in the rules. And at the topic at hand, using a +5 Gauntlet as a Monk allows you to benefit from the increased damage (they only override lethal rules) but not use FoB (the gauntlet isn't a special monk weapon) and the FAQ backs this up as well. Using a Heavy Gauntlet for increased damage should certainly work. However it uses a specific table, which also notes 1d10 becomes 2d6, which would require you're DM's interpretation. I'd handle as a size increase if that's worth much to you.

Also, a better method than that horrible post. UMD a Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (races of the dragon) to reach Colossal Sized damage. Expansion/Polymorph won't stack with the GMW as you can't apply it to a "medium unarmed attack since" because as a large+ creature, you don't have one of those, or IE GMW must by applied after shape-shifting effects. However, stuff like Improved Natural Attack & Ectoplasmic Fist can be applied afterwards. Which would hit Colossal++ (9d8) if ELH rules are allowed. Heavy weapons could allow for a 10d8 strike but you lose FoB's two extra attacks so it's best used for AoOs and not your Full Attack option.

Edit - For what it's worth, I'd forgot the gloves. A Scorpion's Kama deals your Unarmed Damage, buy it large and it should still deal the same damage, but as a THF weapon you get *1.5 your Str Bonus to damage and you can FoB with it unlike the Gauntlet.

[13 Chain Blood Spider]

I'd stick to the mentioned +die per size category which follows the die progression noted in the rules. And at the topic at hand, using a +5 Gauntlet as a Monk allows you to benefit from the increased damage (they only override lethal rules) but not use FoB (the gauntlet isn't a special monk weapon) and the FAQ backs this up as well. Using a Heavy Gauntlet for increased damage should certainly work. However it uses a specific table, which also notes 1d10 becomes 2d6, which would require you're DM's interpretation. I'd handle as a size increase if that's worth much to you.

So using Gauntlets DOES increase your Unarmed Strike damage? Where is this FAQ?

[SorO_Lost]

So using Gauntlets DOES increase your Unarmed Strike damage? Where is this FAQ?

Can a monk use a +5 gauntlet in an unarmed attack, gaining all of her class benefits as well as the +5 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls from the gauntlet?
Gauntlets are indeed a weapon. If a monk uses any weapon not listed as a special monk weapon, she does not gain her better attack rate. She would, however, gain the increased damage for unarmed attacks.

The gauntlet it's self? No, as I mentioned it only changes the rule on lethal/nonlethal (see gauntlet description in the PHB). The increased damage is coming from that +5 Enhancement bonus.

I agree that a Heavy Gauntlet would work since conceptually the Heavy part increases your damage. But you are kind of in a foggy area so again ask your DM for his ruling.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

"The reason for this is that the build implements Heavy Gauntlets, and you are unable to Flurry with them. "

hmm ... well there is a feat that lets you Flurry with any Light weapon.
(idk wtf right now, maybe Dr#341 carnivore posted a few times)


The guys that worked up the King Of Smack
series of builds, have been active at old wotc
C.O. recently.  They might have changed their
minds about a thing or two.

[zook1shoe]

the Unorthodox Flurry feat from Dragon Compendium allows you to flurry with a chosen light weapon you're proficiency with


adding normal/Greater Mighty Wallop in there might help the damage, depending when you stack them, since they max out at Colossal