I just want to make sure this combination is legit...

[Sevash]

I've been tossing around an idea for a particularly gritty anti-hero (Bone Knight springs to mind, but this combination may render some of its features obsolete) or villain, and the more I think on it, the more ludicrous the piles of things I can add to a tiefling without increasing its LA overmuch...

0.)  Make sure you can play with LA buyoff.

1.)  Be a Tiefling.  Specifically, a Lesser Tiefling--not being an outsider is sort of the crux of this whole thing, and LA +0 is superior.  See if you can argue for some of the alternate features that Pathfinder introduced for them, because (as an example) +2 to Str and Wis with Blur as a SLA is just groovy for clerics.

1.5)  Slap whatever other LA +0 templates on there that you like, so long as they don't make you something other than a humanoid or monstrous humanoid.

2.)  Take Magic in the Blood as one of your first-level feats (or your only first-level feat if playing without flaws), and take the Half-Fiend transition class every three levels, immediately buying it off.  Bonus points if you convince your DM that this effectively makes you a half-fiend with no other half, and should be allowed to get a human's bonus feat and skill points going forward (extra bonus points if you make it so that it's retroactive starting at first level).

2.5)  Realize that, nowhere in the transition class, does it state that you become an outsider.  You are still a humanoid with some weird subtypes.

3.)  Decide that you might as well also be undead, since you're still a humanoid.  Become a necropolitan after carefully preparing the area and ensuring that you're Corpsecrafted in a Desecrated area with whatever other goodies you require (can't argue with Nimble Bones while you're at it!).

4.)  What good is being undead if you're not spellstiched?  It's no good at all.  Have your artificer cohort (which you really should have if you're not an artificer yourself) make it so.

4.5.)  While your arty cohort is at it, have him or her whip up some grafts to make things all the more ridiculous.

This all works, right?  It's a little absurd, but I find it to be highly flavorful and it doesn't come with a level adjustment--just some XP costs paid here and there, some of which you don't even have to pay for yourself.  Am I missing something?

[hunterofjello]

You might be able to fly it past a DM, but it requires a lot of finagling. I'll try to cover things point by point.

1. Lesser Tiefling is a good idea for this sort of thing. I wish outsiders could become undead through some other method than Lichfiend. (At least that's the only one I'm aware of.)

2. Why Magic in the Blood? For fun?

Now, the first line under the Half-Fiend SS Progression complicates things.

"A tiefling is born tainted by evil and saddled with a +1 level adjustment. Tieflings who wish to become half-fiends can do so in just three levels instead of the normal four that the standard template class requires. "

The tiefling this progression works for is defined as having a +1 level adjustment. That could either force a +1 LA on you for being a tiefling and following the rules of this progression or disqualify you from it.

A problem is also created for ignoring the internal consistency of the Savage Species Progression system. That web enhancement already has a version of a Lesser Tiefling. It's a +0 LA Tiefling who is still an outsider. It also has a level that turns it into a full +1 LA Teifling. There may not be a RAW rule out there anywhere that says you can ignore the internal consistency of systems, but there likely should be. Mixing and matching systems is one thing, ignoring the internal consistency of one you use is another.

If you make any argument against that, it should be that since the PGtF states that, "If you use these lesser racial versions in your campaign, you should u se t hem across t he board... Thus, a party that includes a lesser drow should never encounter drow from the Monster Manual in your game." You could therefore assert that a Lesser Tiefling is a normal Tiefling, yet should be able to take the SS Progression for the Tiefling and then the Half-Fiend anyway. That would be somewhat stranger, but would negate the problem of the original statement that a Tiefling has a +1 LA.

As far as the human thing goes, a Tiefling would gain the acquired template of Half-Fiend over its lifetime. It would still be a Tiefling, just one that has more fiend in it than before. It wouldn't suddenly become human.

The entire idea of grabbing a +1 LA, buy it off, then repeat is an interesting idea. You could do it, although a DM would likely throw stuff at you.
~

Well, that's my 2 cents. Hope this works well in a build if you have a game to use it in.

[Sevash]

Thanks for having a look over my idea here.  Let's see if I can answer your concerns.

-Magic In The Blood is a 1st-level only feat that allows your racial 1/day SLAs to become 3/day SLAs.  This is interesting in that it doesn't specify base racial SLAs--any SLAs you acquire as a result of templates that modify your race could be covered by this feat.  The half-fiend's 1/day SLAs now get three shots, as well as some of the Spellstitched abilities (for example: for your 1st-level SLAs from that template, allocate 3 uses to one spell and only one to another.  Now you have three of both!).  The value of this feat when you're stacking templates like this is immense.

-The wording before you get into the crunchy bits of this transition is muddy.  Is it pre-class fluffery, or a hard requirement that the tiefling that enter have LA +1?  Could I be a lesser tiefling that took a different template that gives +1 LA?  None of the book-standard rigmarole about class prerequisites is there, hence this discussion about "what is tiefling?"  I've always interpreted it as being eligible for anything that could be defined as a tiefling, whether it be regular, Lesser, or "lesser".

-The reason I would argue for gaining the benefits of being human at some point across the transition is that as you go along the transition class, the only racial features you end up with are those from the half-fiend template.  All of the tiefling's racial features, apart from some insignificant racial bonuses to skills, are integrated into the half-fiend.  So what's the base race of your half-fiend now?  You end up with less than if you had started as a base race and took the template, given that you also end with a net +0 to Cha...the transition class doesn't take into account the tiefling's -2.  So yeah, maybe throw another +2 to Cha in there at some point as well.

-This would be a combination for a fairly high-op/permissive game, or for use as a high-end villain.  The rules for LA buyoff allow this chicanery, but unless the DM explicitly approves of my end goals (one of them thinks this combination would be unparalleled munchkinry, another thinks it's the coolest thing since sliced goblins) I wouldn't be touching this.

[SorO_Lost]

In addition.

1. Canonically, Corpsecrafter working with Necropolition is DM territory. The Ritual isn't typed nor is it a real spell and Corpsecrafter flat out requires the Undead to be created from a Necromancy spell.

2. Spell-Stitched doesn't have an LA entry. If you were to make one up, it should scale based on the SLAs granted. Which, while lower level than Half-Fiend, the choice of any spell you desire certainly makes up for it. +4 LA isn't a bad DM call, but ultimatly, it is the DM's call because per RAW, Spell-Stitched doesn't have a Player-compatible LA entry.

3. And you want LA buyoff? Why don't you just come out and say this is a Gestated E6 game and you want 9th level spells and polish off the depth of the trench you're trying to build...

[Halinn]

I doubt you'll find a GM that allows the kind of step-wise LA buyoff you're assuming for step 2. The "bonus point" bit you consider has no grounding in the rules at all.

With the level of GM permissiveness you're assuming, why not just go full Pun-Pun?


My own favorite trick with transition classes is Feytouched 0 / Half-Fey Transition 1, for +2 dex, -2 con, +2 wis, +4 cha, flying, SLAs and enchantment immunity at 1 LA rather than the normal 2 it would take.

[Drammor]

If staying a humanoid is a concern, is not Human Heritage an option?

[Sevash]

To Soro and Halinn:

I wasn't sure HOW permissive a DM would have to be to allow this combination for a PC, hence my question about whether it all works rather than flat-out asserting "omg tihs is teh best EVAR."  It seems good at first glance, but lot of valid points have been raised--especially when you get into the undeadening territory (although I will point out that the transition classes as written, after this exercise, still leave a lot to be desired).  This all leaves me to believe that while it could theoretically work, it's best left as an NPC than a PC.  At least I can get use out of it that way.

Also, Halinn, that's pretty boss.  Is being limited only to the school of Enchantment any real deterrent as opposed to going full-blown mind-affecting immunity?

To Drammor:

Human Heritage is an option, but it's a demonstrably sub-par one here.  By being a lesser planetouched, you become humanoid *and* lose your level adjustment without using a feat, which leaves room for Magic In The Blood.  Taking Human Heritage eats your first-level feat slot (unless flaws are involved), which eliminates the possibility of Magic In The Blood.  Plus you still have a +1 LA to deal with right off the bat.  4 skill points aren't worth it.


Thanks for your responses, everyone.  My question has been answered--some portions of it work, but overall it isn't legit.  MC Hammer can only weep.