Author Topic: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul  (Read 19796 times)

Offline Grez

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 10:50:30 PM »
OK, so, if you remove all the 'creation' spells which result in matter being permanently brought into the universe from nothing* or ruin the game economy, and make spells like create water/food transmutation spells require an equal if not greater amount of materials to cast and are high level spells so most wizards wouldn't bother casting them unless they were desperate (transmuting lead to gold would require vast amounts of effort for little gain and bring the wrath of the gods on you). Then you can start to create a somewhat respectable economic system, although this still leaves spells like fabricate a potential breaker (maybe place tighter restrictions on these spells?).

*Although, when you cast a spell like that what you are effectively doing is converting arcane energy into matter via something similar to E=MC^2, but this would ultimately result in the the universe running out of arcane energy if the result was permanent. This is equally bad, as wizards would ultimately turn to other energy sources for their spells (such as corruption magic in the Dark Sun setting).

People will go to healers to heal them, and it will cost more money than most people make in a year, due to labor/demand/cost.  Remember than healing spells usually just heal damage, not disease, so they won't help with sickness most of the time.  This should keep the peasants down, and the medieval flavor of the setting.
Unless of course the healer in question receives his abilities from a divine source (which most would), in which case if he decided to charge huge prices for a service such as healing the sick then he would likely have is powers cut off (not really lawful good if you charge more than an entire years income for casting Remove Disease once, since you are clearly serving yourself without regards to others). That's not to say however that he wouldn't turn away those who he deemed not needing to be cured and would perform the service for free (would most likely take a donation for his church). For higher level spells like Resurrection he would obviously charge very high prices for as the people who would be needing a spell like that would be wealthy and taking vast amounts of money from them would be seen as just provided it was used further the work of his deity.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Problems with the standard system
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 01:08:02 AM »
The money used are coins or platinum, gold, silver, and copper. These are universal coins and can be spent anywhere in the campaign world. The only way for this to work is for the value of the coins value to be standardised is if they have a given weight (ie, the value of the coin is determined by the value of the metal it’s made from).
That is exactly what a piece is in D&D: a standardised unit of weight. A "piece" in D&D is 0.32 oz, according to page 122 of the Player's Handbook. That page also says that what is often actually exchanged is gold bars, or banknotes representing a certain quantity of gold. So, yes, in D&D what is actually being exchanged by adventurers is a unit of weight, or a representation of a unit of weight.

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Offline Grez

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Re: Problems with the standard system
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 02:01:36 AM »
That is exactly what a piece is in D&D: a standardized unit of weight.[/spoiler]

I realize that, what I was trying to point out is having the value of the coin governed by the value of the material causes several problems.
1 - It would be very easy for a criminal to trim off just enough material around the outside so that you couldn't tell it was smaller without comparing it to another coin and then remelt the scraps into another coin. If this coin was used in a place such as a bar where small amounts of coin are being exchanged all the time then it would be easy to dispose of these coins as no one would weigh them to see if they were legit.
2 - Minters would have different size molds, therefore the value of a gold coin would vary from mint to mint. This difference wouldn't be picked up by traders such as the barkeep who wouldnt weigh all the coins being exchanged to determine their value.
3 - If the coins were to be weighed then it would be easy for the merchant to rig the scales in his favor.
4 - In an world where 136kg of gold (15000gp) can be wished for in an instant and 1360kg (150000gp) can be used up in the creation of a single powerfull magic item. The value of gold wouldn't stay constant enough to be useful as a currency (hyper-inflation as every powerful enough wizard would be binding an effreet and wishing for 15000gp every day), and people would get fed up with finding that they will need to use tan extra wheelbarrow to carry tomorrows rent to their landlord.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 02:04:33 AM by Grez »

Offline Chemus

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Re: Problems with the standard system
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2012, 02:42:44 AM »
...I realize that, what I was trying to point out is having the value of the coin governed by the value of the material causes several problems.
1 - It would be very easy for a criminal to trim off just enough material around the outside so that you couldn't tell it was smaller without comparing it to another coin and then remelt the scraps into another coin. If this coin was used in a place such as a bar where small amounts of coin are being exchanged all the time then it would be easy to dispose of these coins as no one would weigh them to see if they were legit.
2 - Minters would have different size molds, therefore the value of a gold coin would vary from mint to mint. This difference wouldn't be picked up by traders such as the barkeep who wouldnt weigh all the coins being exchanged to determine their value.
3 - If the coins were to be weighed then it would be easy for the merchant to rig the scales in his favor.
4 - In an world where 136kg of gold (15000gp) can be wished for in an instant and 1360kg (150000gp) can be used up in the creation of a single powerfull magic item. The value of gold wouldn't stay constant enough to be useful as a currency (hyper-inflation as every powerful enough wizard would be binding an effreet and wishing for 15000gp every day), and people would get fed up with finding that they will need to use tan extra wheelbarrow to carry tomorrows rent to their landlord.

But that's exactly what has happened many times in history; forgery was a real problem, and standards were hard to come by. Some money has been as you describe; a representation of resources, but many forms of currency have had actual intrinsic value. Hell, things like coin shaving still happen to a certain extent. Why do you think that so many coins have milled edges? It's not for decoration, and it's been around for a long time.

As for the economy, I only see it becoming important in an academic fashion. This is because the rules and patterns of many worlds are arbitrarily formed at the whim of the DM. Hand-waving magical creation away is one of the arbitrary choices most DM's make, because there's often no fun in an economy where stone, iron and salt have no value due to magic.
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2012, 03:02:46 AM »
1 - This tactic worked specifically because the coin had a face value — it has nothing to do with the value of material used. If you mint high-value coins on cheap metals, then the criminal can and will trim the coin and cast new coins. In fact, fake coins are still a problem checked for by banks and vending machines today – and they check the coin by weighing it.

2 - Considering the book explicitly says that its not always coins that are exchanged, and that sometimes it really is just bars of metal, it is safe to assume that merchants would have scales. The "local coinage" would be standardised in weight and size so people could exchange it quickly; there would be some forgery or trimming, but as already pointed out this is unavoidable no matter what material you make a coin out of.

3 - Merchants can rig scales, yes. This is something that happens in currency-based economies, too: merchants can use a rigged scale to lie to a person about how much of the product they are buying. In fact, there are countless ways a merchant can cheat a person, and changing the currency will not prevent the merchant from being able to cheat.

4 - Wizards powerful enough to bind an efreet would be very rare, and one that can have an efreet wish for gold can just as easily have the efreet wish for piles of money instead. Changing from bullion to legal tender does not avoid wish-based inflation, as a wizard is equally capable of doing either.

Therefore, switching to a currency-based economy in D&D solved none of the problems you're describing. In fact, switching to a currency-based economy exasperates them. In a gold-based D&D economy, surplus gold can still be traded to other places, including alternate planes of existence (and when you're throwing around Wishes, that's far from a difficult prospect). If, however, a currency is overinflated due to magical or mundane forgery, it really does become worthless.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 03:04:37 AM by FlaminCows »

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2012, 03:20:49 AM »
And, actually, the big answer to why prices are so constant in D&D (apart from simplicity and DM fiat) is the planes of existence. As soon as you talk about Wish, you can point in the direction of Gate as well.

The planes, according the the fluff, are infinite. Thus, whenever a person has an exceedingly large surplus of something they can always trade it away. "Total market saturation" is impossible because the market is infinity. Any substance that is in excessive surplus in one place would have the surplus either bought out or raided for by any one of the infinite number of places that have a shortage.

Now, re: Why Don't Wizards Just Make Walls of Iron Forever.

This is actually pretty silly. Casting Wall of Iron to sell the iron is a complete waste of time for an 12th-level mage. He would have to move the massive chunk of iron, get the massive chunk of iron melted down or cut into bars, and then market and sell it when its just ordinary goddamn iron. Sure, he wouldn't have to worry about the price of iron decreasing because he could always go to Acheron or something and sell to any one of the endless wars so its not like he'll run out of demand, but he could make money a lot quicker just by cutting the middleman and hiring himself out to cast spells.

If you remove Wall of Iron, you could just as easily have a wizard be a miner and make "infinite money" or be a communications device and get "infinite money" or be a transport method and get "infinite money" or ANYTHING. The assumption behind "creation spells break the economy" is that making money from creation spells would not be any work, and that's just not the case. Finding a resource is easy by 12th level. It just isn't worth the time to sell.

Offline dman11235

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2012, 09:06:25 AM »
Infinite planes means hyper inflation.  That's why I specified that my planes set up is no longer infinite.  All it takes is ONE wizard to use Wall of Iron and melt it down over and over again to cause it.  It takes ONE wizard binding an Efreet and wishing for gold (and yes, gold, not money).  ONE wizard using Fabricate on the piles of gold and iron he has, making them into very valuable things.  Then you have hyper inflation, and everything sucks forever because this version of hyper inflation is irreversible and infinite.  Making the planes infinitely large makes it worse, since now you are guaranteed to have a wizard doing this.  Guaranteed to have an infinite number of wizards doing this, in fact.  If you're a 12th level wizard (of which there are an infinite number in the planes, given that they are infinitely large), you have the means to cast Wall of Iron and then move/melt/shape it using magic, which removes your work argument.

Quote
*Although, when you cast a spell like that what you are effectively doing is converting arcane energy into matter via something similar to E=MC^2, but this would ultimately result in the the universe running out of arcane energy if the result was permanent. This is equally bad, as wizards would ultimately turn to other energy sources for their spells (such as corruption magic in the Dark Sun setting).

In order for this to be true, the energy has to come from somewhere else, and then the energy needed to cast and carry out the spell.  So you need to pull enough energy to make all that matter (which would pretty much require turning an equal amount of matter directly into energy, and then back again) to make it work.  There's no getting around it, conservation of energy is a problem.  Oh, and keep in mind, this is D&D, so physics may not apply as well as it does here....

Quote
OK, so, if you remove all the 'creation' spells which result in matter being permanently brought into the universe from nothing* or ruin the game economy, and make spells like create water/food transmutation spells require an equal if not greater amount of materials to cast and are high level spells so most wizards wouldn't bother casting them unless they were desperate (transmuting lead to gold would require vast amounts of effort for little gain and bring the wrath of the gods on you). Then you can start to create a somewhat respectable economic system, although this still leaves spells like fabricate a potential breaker (maybe place tighter restrictions on these spells?).

Spells like Create Food/Water would not exist same as other 'creation' spells.  But all of these can still exist, it just requires modification.  Summoning/calling the food works, and spending equal energy works (but see above).  As for Fabricate?  All that does is remove the time aspect of fabrication.  You still need the skill, and energy to move stuff.  I think maybe we can say that one difference between our universe and the D&D verse is that energy of motion is greatly reduced?  Say, 1/2mv^.5?

Quote
Unless of course the healer in question receives his abilities from a divine source (which most would), in which case if he decided to charge huge prices for a service such as healing the sick then he would likely have is powers cut off (not really lawful good if you charge more than an entire years income for casting Remove Disease once, since you are clearly serving yourself without regards to others). That's not to say however that he wouldn't turn away those who he deemed not needing to be cured and would perform the service for free (would most likely take a donation for his church). For higher level spells like Resurrection he would obviously charge very high prices for as the people who would be needing a spell like that would be wealthy and taking vast amounts of money from them would be seen as just provided it was used further the work of his deity.

As you said, the service would no be provided free of charge.  He has to make a living, but it would almost certainly be a non-profit.  Private physicians, on the other hand, would charge more, since they would provide better service.  Keep that in mind too, they are performing a service.  I do recommend making healing spells more significant and having them require an expensive component (a focus is already required, but maybe a touch of diamond dust (1 sp worth?)) for the status effect eliminators.  Eschew Materials also kind of has to go, but that's not a big problem, since spell components would be very inexpensive.  These are the arcane materials being used (and remember, they are matter being converted directly into energy in most cases, that's where the energy is coming from).
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2012, 01:22:37 PM »
Infinite planes means hyper inflation.  That's why I specified that my planes set up is no longer infinite.  All it takes is ONE wizard to use Wall of Iron and melt it down over and over again to cause it.  It takes ONE wizard binding an Efreet and wishing for gold (and yes, gold, not money).  ONE wizard using Fabricate on the piles of gold and iron he has, making them into very valuable things.  Then you have hyper inflation, and everything sucks forever because this version of hyper inflation is irreversible and infinite.  Making the planes infinitely large makes it worse, since now you are guaranteed to have a wizard doing this.  Guaranteed to have an infinite number of wizards doing this, in fact.  If you're a 12th level wizard (of which there are an infinite number in the planes, given that they are infinitely large), you have the means to cast Wall of Iron and then move/melt/shape it using magic, which removes your work argument.

Actually infinite number of planes means exactly the opposite: that hyper inflation is impossible. Even if there are an infinite number of 12th level wizards making an infinite number of iron walls, there is a much larger infinity of places that do not have 12th level wizards, and so an infinite number of places to distribute a surplus. You get inflation when the supply of a unit of exchange increases compared to the demand: and both the supply and demand in the planes is infinity. One wizard making a pittance as a glorified mine would make no meaningful difference to the larger Planes.

In addition, there are an infinite number of places that have wizards destroying matter. Not only wizards, either: bags of holding and portable holes, bags of devouring, dragons eating their entire hoard before death, there are plenty of ways which precious or useful material disappears. If you do not have Creation spells, then by your own argument there would be hyper deflation because there are a number of things destroying valuable materials and none creating it.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 05:04:28 PM by FlaminCows »

Offline veekie

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2012, 04:08:17 PM »
One thing against this overhaul is unbacked currency. Especially when you are dealing with travelers, explorers and worse, inter-planar values, any currency that is not a direct representation of it's material value is problematic.

What you have, more likely, is that individual countries back their specific coins with differing alloys, and thus have local price differences from other countries, but universally speaking you are dealing with weight and purity units of metal. The coin stamping is a shorthand for the coin's value, you don't have to weigh them all the time, because the stamp denotes that a known authority has already weighed and valued the coin.
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2012, 05:00:44 PM »
Also, to avoid coin trimming there might be modern-style reeding: while coin forgery still happens, it is much harder to use trimmings to make coins and then spend the coins because modern coins have fine patterns on the edge. Coins would be milled by machines rather than hammered into a die. Its a technology that did not exist in the real middle ages, but could easily exist in the D&D setting, thus preventing coin trimming.
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In addition, the D&D setting could have forgery detection systems as well; it seems like something a dwarf or gnome might make. The coin is automatically compared in weight, shape, and volume to confirm that it is genuinely the weight and density promised on the coin's face, and the device might count coins, sort them, add up the total number of each type of coin, etc.. Its not that the merchants weight every coin, they just put the coins through a machine and voilà, they know exactly how much they are being paid.

As Veekie noted, the nature of trade in D&D means that unbacked currency would be difficult to use, and not only do you have people travelling between nations and planes but you also have creatures who live very long and hoard coinage, so you would have money being spent that is from kingdoms that don't even exist any more. With all this going on, I think D&D's default approach to currency is actually the most sensible. People measuring their wealth in weight values is the only thing that would really make sense. Local minting is just for being able to quickly count out a certain weight of metal without having to weigh it each time, and a lot of the coins used anywhere would be foreign, extraplanar, ancient, or otherwise unusual but still valued because they are backed by the value of the metal in them.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 05:31:52 PM by FlaminCows »

Offline veekie

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2012, 05:41:43 PM »
Another way to avoid coin trimming. Arcane Mark the coins. This means for an active kingdom, minted currency is backed...by the mage corps. Doctoring them is a promise to get your ass rearranged by some wizards.
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2012, 05:58:53 PM »
Another way to avoid coin trimming. Arcane Mark the coins. This means for an active kingdom, minted currency is backed...by the mage corps. Doctoring them is a promise to get your ass rearranged by some wizards.

Amusingly, D&D already has something like that in the Epic Level Handbook. The epic economy uses money minted by the temple of the god of wealth, and every bill is backed with the promise of spellcasting. Which means, if you look at it in a certain way, that epic level characters are using spell scrolls as money.

Offline Grez

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2012, 07:21:31 PM »
Another way to avoid coin trimming. Arcane Mark the coins. This means for an active kingdom, minted currency is backed...by the mage corps. Doctoring them is a promise to get your ass rearranged by some wizards.

I had a similar thought as well, if the local government had a group of mages and a special dye/press/etc to make that regions coins (or notes), then the coins could have an enchantment of some kind where they could glow faintly when a command word (known by most people) was spoken or placed near a special 'checking' coin (which could be brought readily). The enchantment would be created by the press in such a way that it would be extremely difficult for a mage to recreate the enchantment on counterfeit currency without the press.

Amusingly, D&D already has something like that in the Epic Level Handbook. The epic economy uses money minted by the temple of the god of wealth, and every bill is backed with the promise of spellcasting. Which means, if you look at it in a certain way, that epic level characters are using spell scrolls as money.

That's an interesting idea, how about if each currency could be backed by the promise of high level spell components (for the sake of simplicity lets use the 4e Astral Diamond, which would be a universal currency on the planes).

Offline veekie

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2012, 07:42:20 PM »
Actually, you could just use actual diamonds and souls(xp), the former can be consumed at a fixed rate with resurrection magic and the latter can be used to fuel spells/crafting that create wealth(all of which cost XP).
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Offline dman11235

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2012, 09:48:27 PM »
The problem with that is that the economy is not universal.  So where the destruction is happening (and you're right, there is an infinite amount of destruction happening, it's just that there's a higher order of creation happening), there is hyper deflation, and where the creation is happening there is hyper inflation.  However, I think I have a solution.

Gods exist in D&D.  This is a fact.  There are gods up to divine rank 20, who don't have ultimate power, but some are close to it (Boccob).  There are also gods who are higher than divine rank 20.  The gods are.....unique.  They are all powerful.  It's not that much of a stretch to say that there is an over-deity of wealth who's job it is to make sure inflation doesn't happen, and that all places have the same prices for everything, barring local phenomenon (drought/famine, king being unruly, etc.).  So everything is set by magic.  Now you can work to set up a good, universal economy based on the whims of a deity.  You can do this a number of ways, depending on your interpretation or houserule on the format of the planes, including universal delusion about price, universal delusion to prevent creation/destruction of matter, controlling the rarity of everything constantly, etc.
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Offline veekie

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2012, 11:50:51 PM »
While that might be applicable, the flow of wealth is not instantaneous, and this provides a standard 'anchor' for value. The price of a life.  Not to mention large scale, virtually immortal hoarders like gods and dragons, it should be stable enough to remain usable in the 1-20 level range. Remember most of the time these units are just circulating as the units of exchange, units do not easily gain in quantity or get consumed at a large scale except by epic entities, which are rare.
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Offline Chemus

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2012, 02:00:09 AM »
...there is an over-deity of wealth who's job it is to make sure inflation doesn't happen, and that all places have the same prices for everything...  So everything is set by magic.  Now you can work to set up a good, universal economy based on the whims of a deity...

You stated hand-waving much more elegantly than I did. So, Clarke's law for D&D? "Any sufficiently advanced hand-waving is indistinguishable from good design."

The D&D Economy is actually undefined. To define it is to make a world. This world is the economy to a very large extent. If enough things were to be enumerated in the rules, then changing them would require as much world-building as creating them did.

That said, altering magic so that spells never actually create stuff would fix the infinite wealth from magic bit. Thus the creation sub-school changes to calling or summoning, with instantaneous durations; these things are called or summoned from elsewhere. Whether it's another plane or just somewhere else in the world depends on the flavor you want. Conjuration suddenly becomes differing forms of teleportation magic. Create Food and Water is 'powered' by petitioners in the spell granting god's realm, or petitioners worshiping similar Ideals. So too Wall of Stone/Iron summons Stone or Iron from the elemental plane of Earth, for example. It reduces the amount of those substances that exist there. Such depredations of casters in a material plane might even be the reason that Earth creatures are on that plane; vengeance or debt collection.

The currency changes suggested so far would be OK in a specific campaign, but as generic rules I think that they're too complicated. Anything that is to be used must be as simple or simpler than the current system in order to be useful to the game at large.
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Offline Grez

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2012, 04:33:57 AM »
The currency changes suggested so far would be OK in a specific campaign, but as generic rules I think that they're too complicated. Anything that is to be used must be as simple or simpler than the current system in order to be useful to the game at large.

OK then, if we forget about the currency changes and leave that to the DMs then that still leaves the large wealth disparity between adventurers and commoners and the fact that, for example, no one bellow level 10 would be able to afford land, or how a king arms his army arms based on the cost of weapons/armor and the miniscule amount of tax he could extract from each of his commoners.

Anyway, back to the commoner who earns 100SC (3gp) per month, I guessed a high and low amount of iron ore a laborer could extract in one day, and coupled with the price of guards and tooling for the workers, I estimated that 1kg (~2lb) of iron would cost between 2SC (6cp) and 8SC (24cp). This assumes that the mine is about 4 days away from the city its sold in, that the merchant who sells it to the smith makes healthy profit (sells it at a 100% markup), and the mine owner takes home a healthy income (~400SC per month) from the day to day running of the mine as well.

Now, this is a far cry from the recommended 3gp for the same amount of iron (material cost for a short sword), so it would seem that the material cost is a large factor in why commoners cant afford even junk weapons, when in the middle ages even peasants could buy a crappy sword for less than a weeks pay. So it means that something needs to be corrected here, as even without the fact that wizards can summon vast quantities of iron in an instant, the price of iron I calculated should make a cheap sword easily affordable for a commoner.

Offline dman11235

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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2012, 10:05:45 AM »
DO keep in mind that the prices can change depending on how much gold applies to power.  If using bauglir's model for WBL, then gold doesn't need to be adjusted to your level, and can be based solely on supply/demand/usefulness/magic.
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Re: D&D 3.5e Economy Overhaul
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2012, 11:00:26 AM »
The currency changes suggested so far would be OK in a specific campaign, but as generic rules I think that they're too complicated. Anything that is to be used must be as simple or simpler than the current system in order to be useful to the game at large.

OK then, if we forget about the currency changes and leave that to the DMs then that still leaves the large wealth disparity between adventurers and commoners and the fact that, for example, no one bellow level 10 would be able to afford land, or how a king arms his army arms based on the cost of weapons/armor and the miniscule amount of tax he could extract from each of his commoners.
-Of course adventurers make a lot more money than commoners. Because it's an high-risk, high-reward job. Mortality rate at low levels is staggering by itself as a lucky crit and you're dead. The countryside is littered with the decayed bodies of fools that tought it would be an easy path to get rich.
-Welcome to dark ages armies. You don't have a standing army. You may have a personal honor guard equiped by you, but otherwise you have nobles who pay their own equipment and you need to keep alliances with and conspricted peasants that use whatever is at hand. Equipment is also handed over from father to son or looted from the battlefield. The land? You inherited it or took it by force, and it'll probably stay in your family until somebody stronger takes it from you unless someone filthy rich appears to make it worth your while. Vikings and barbarians didn't raid because it was cool. Vikings and barbarians raided because it was what put food on their bellies and clothes over their families.

Then you also have to remind that the sword/armor you buy at D&D is actually an high quality product  that never needs to be oiled, sharpened or otherwise demands maintenance, saving up costs on the long run.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 11:03:29 AM by oslecamo »