ToB: What I don't like about Maneuver Progression

[veekie]

One point being thoroughly missed here:
When someone takes one level of Warblade after 10 levels of Fighter, you are not comparing this with someone taking 1 level of Warblade. You are comparing someone taking one more level of Warblade after 10 levels of Warblade.

And in THAT measure, ToB does very well! It actually gives you adequate gains, without relying on overpowered first level benefits(like wizard, with some first level spells retaining their benefit because they work regardless of level, while others, funny enough, do shit all because their DCs are way out of date), unlocking some prereq(like dipping for Rogue or Monk to qualify), or mixing up for specific ability combinations.

[zugschef]

well, that reminds me an awful lot of the oberoni fallacy...

[dman11235]

That's not the argument being made I think veekie, otherwise you'd be right.  The argument is in two different builds, both identical save for where the levels are taken, being different in power, which I think is a bad thing.  However, this is not a fault of the individual classes or the characters in question, or even the mechanic itself.  It's an issue with the execution of the mechanic and the individual maneuvers.  Again, though, fixing this is incredibly easy: allow PCs to retrain their maneuvers at any time regardless of the class taken.  Not all the time, but most of the time.  Be smart about it, and let them retrain obsolete ones so that they are effective at all levels.

[Unbeliever]

well, that reminds me an awful lot of the oberoni fallacy...

Seems like a fair point.  Although in my experience retraining maneuvers in ToB is more along the lines of letting Monks be proficient with their fists -- i.e., ubiquitous.  But, I freely admit that my gaming groups may be quite idiosyncratic. 

Part of me was wondering about a broader debate about the merits of the ToB style system, along the lines that Veekie is talking about a few posts above, applied more broadly.   But, that puts us more into the "rebuild D&D in major ways" territory.

[merkwerdigeliebe]

Couldn't the same be said of picking a class with a higher HD (full roll) or higher skill points (x4) at the first level? Also, a character who took vow of poverty later than first level recieves less feats. A class with advanced learning options (warmage, beguiler, wilder, etc.) certainly functions better when staggered with a +spellcasting PRC at strategic points. This isn't the only place where rules like this exist.

[dman11235]

I don't think anyone said that this was the only instance of this sort of thing happening...

[merkwerdigeliebe]

I don't think anyone said that this was the only instance of this sort of thing happening...

I'm aware that nobody is refuting it, but it seemed like a pertinent point that was being ignored. ToB is being picked on for something that there are many instances of.

[dman11235]

Fair enough.

[zugschef]

btw, i also don't like the way the tables for gained maneuvers and stances work.

then there's also that you get so few stances and while some are really good at the point you can get them, they horribly suck five levels later and you're stuck with them forever. another point where you can choose a stance which is great now and useless later or which will have its uses even late in your career but is never this good.

the whole thing just seems to be a beta version.

[dman11235]

Not really, it's more of a testing the limits.  This was a very different mechanic, and unlike Incarnum (the most underrated system in the game) they weren't confident enough to go the full distance with it and make it what it should have been.  Like most problems with the game, go ahead and blame the wizards.

[StreamOfTheSky]

"... you get so few stances and while some are really good at the point you can get them, they horribly suck five levels later and you're stuck with them forever."

Suck later?  WTF is with this thread...

It's the high level stances that are largely situational or crappy.  Devoted Spirit's only matters if you're actually getting beaten down to death.  Iron Heart's just sucks.  Balance on the Sky is good if you somehow still don't have any flight options, though needing an empty hand is annoying.  Tiger Claw's is alright, but is more suited to TWF full attacking than using with most of the strike maneuvers you've actually been accumulating up to then.  Diamond Mind's is excellent, if you actually have the counters known and maneuvers readied to burn through them all that quickly.  Ghostly Defense is horribly situational and needs an external source of high concealment.  Stone Dragon and White Raven's 8th levels are both bad....

Meanwhile, the low to mid level stances, you get Thicket of Blades.  Blood in the Water and Hearing the Air.  Flame's Blessing for eventual fire immunity.  Leading the Charge for a level-based bonus to group charge damage.  Martial Spirit, to abuse for infinite out of combat healing.  Assassin's Stance for sneak attack.  Island of Blades to flank from any position.  Press the Advantage for 10 ft steps and 5 ft steps in difficult terrain.  Step of the Wind to ignore difficult terrain.

Those never stop being good and helpful, and will be more commonly useful than most of those level 8 stances!

[veekie]

"... you get so few stances and while some are really good at the point you can get them, they horribly suck five levels later and you're stuck with them forever."

Suck later?  WTF is with this thread...

It's the high level stances that are largely situational or crappy.  Devoted Spirit's only matters if you're actually getting beaten down to death.  Iron Heart's just sucks.  Balance on the Sky is good if you somehow still don't have any flight options, though needing an empty hand is annoying.  Tiger Claw's is alright, but is more suited to TWF full attacking than using with most of the strike maneuvers you've actually been accumulating up to then.  Diamond Mind's is excellent, if you actually have the counters known and maneuvers readied to burn through them all that quickly.  Ghostly Defense is horribly situational and needs an external source of high concealment.  Stone Dragon and White Raven's 8th levels are both bad....

Meanwhile, the low to mid level stances, you get Thicket of Blades.  Blood in the Water and Hearing the Air.  Flame's Blessing for eventual fire immunity.  Leading the Charge for a level-based bonus to group charge damage.  Martial Spirit, to abuse for infinite out of combat healing.  Assassin's Stance for sneak attack.  Island of Blades to flank from any position.  Press the Advantage for 10 ft steps and 5 ft steps in difficult terrain.  Step of the Wind to ignore difficult terrain.

Those never stop being good and helpful, and will be more commonly useful than most of those level 8 stances!

Definitely. The low level stances are so good that any melee build could do with a warblade dip at some point to pick them up if nothing else demands your levels.

[Unbeliever]

A fair criticism, but I think we shouldn't demand too much.  A lot of this comes from the fact that ToB is wholly contained in one slim book at the end of a line when the development team and company was already starting to transition to a new edition. 

I mean, think about how wonky the spellcasting system is with just the PHB, and that's a whole lot more pages than are devoted to maneuvers.  There are lots of lower level spells that far outpower higher level ones, etc. 

[Endarire]

I just let martial adepts swap all their maneuvers and stances on a daily basis, like Clerics who change their spells.  It doesn't hurt balance to me, and it removes the law of sequence in relation to maneuvers and stances.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

But but ... but that's almost Vancian ; horrors !!

[Endarire]

Vancian or no, it works well for balance and helps to avoid "The Class Law of Sequence," in which taking a class level at a certain point in your build offers a significantly better return.  I use Pathfinder's skill system in essence with no x4 skill points at L1.  I also give people a set number of HP per level, meaning no extra HP from going Warblade1/Wizard1 vs. Wizard1/Warblade1.

[zugschef]

I just let martial adepts swap all their maneuvers and stances on a daily basis, like Clerics who change their spells.  It doesn't hurt balance to me, and it removes the law of sequence in relation to maneuvers and stances.

i like that.

[Unbeliever]

^ as I've mentioned before, this is the way I play it as well.  I don't enjoy dealing with the level order hijinks.