Forbidden Schools

[oslecamo]

Forbidden Schools

Heh. It's quite rare that monsters would dare to attack this village.
Is it due to that corrupted moon?
Everything has been messed up since it appeared. -Keine Kamirashawa, keeper of knowledge.

Whenever there's light there is a shadow. Whenever somebody develops an elegant tecnhique another will seek to twist and corrupt it into a “stronger” form-but at what price? Sometimes developed by traitors and desesperate struggles, other times by the great masters themselves trying new routes, Forbidden schools offer great power, at great costs.

New Feat:

Forbbiden School
Prerequisites:Knowledge of at least one maneuver of the school you want to betray.
Benefit:You learn one  Maneuver from the respective Forbidden School, whose level cannot be higher than your IL/2, rounded up. In addition from now on, every time you would learn a maneuver of the first school you may instead learn a Forbidden Technique of the respective Forbidden school you still don't know.
Special:In addition your body suffers a clear change, detailed on each Forbidden School.

Forbidden Schools and Maneuvers details

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They aren't called Forbidden for nothing. They are stronger than the usual maneuvers of the “parent” school, but at the cost of permanent penalties on the initiator. They always share the same favored weapons, skill, and count as their “parent” school for purposes of feats and other abilities that call for a specific school.

Forbidden Schools can only be performed out of one's pure free will for their own gain. Charmed/dominated/summoned/binded/cohorts/followers and similar cannot use a Forbidden School.

Forbidden Sign-Any one who dabbles into a Forbidden school ends up developing a physical quirk due to the heavy physical and mental stress it implies.

Forbidden Cost-Using a Forbidden school maneuver or entering a Forbidden stance makes you suffer a cumulative "Forbidden Price" equal to its level. So for example if you used a 3rd level forbidden maneuver and entered a 9th level forbidden stance, you would have a combined Forbidden Price of 12. The specific effects of Forbidden Price are different from school to school. Any penalties and damage self-inflicted by using a Forbidden School ignore any immunities, reduction, resistances, tought bottles, wishes, miracles, god intervetions, and similar.
Regular HP damage can be healed as normal, but only three ways are known for removing the penalties (like reduced max hp or lost skill points):

(click to show/hide)

-The character repents and receives an Attonment spell. He must replace Forbidden School for another feat and any known Forbidden Maneuvers/stances for normal maneuvers/stances of the “parent” school. This is a one time deal. Should she fall on the forbidden path again, no attonment spell can save her now.

-The character kills, in direct combat, a martial iniator of the same “base” school that doesn't know any forbidden techniques but must be no lower than 4 levels from the forbidden iniator herself. A willing sacrifice or backstab on the night won't do, they must fight each other at the top of their capacities. Cohorts, summons, binded creatures and similar always fail to satisfy this criteria. However one is allowed to bring “friends” to help.  Once the kill is performed, all the penalties suffered from the Forbidden Maneuvers of the respective school are removed.

-The character meditates to cleanse her body and soul, recovering from the penalties at the rate of 1 per hour. So for example Mystia uses Mysterious Song, losing 9 mental skill points. She could then meditate and recover 1 lost mental skill point per hour of rest.

Only a character that has picked the Forbbiden School feat can learn and use maneuvers and stances from a Forbidden school. This also means that Forbidden School maneuvers and stances cannot be granted by items nor the Martial Study feat.

Kudos to Prime32 for the original idea.

[oslecamo]

Index of Forbidden Schools

Corpse Voyage (parent school:Riverside View)
Cosmic Mind (parent school: Love-Coloured Magic)
Dangerous Illusion(parent school: Lunar Dial)
Deaf to All but the Song (parent school: Plain History)
Diabolic Wave(parent school: Septette for the Dead)
Fate of 60 Years (parent school: Dream Battle)
Immortal Smoke (parent school:Lunatic Princess)
Marvelous Mt. Ooe(parent school: Drunken Demon)
Sky Ruin (parent school: Chinese Star)

[oslecamo]

Reserved.

[oslecamo]

Another just in case.

[oslecamo]

Ok, first Forbidden School, Immortal Smoke, ready for review!

The main aim for this thread is to give an use for those characters that don't have nearly enough spellcards to make a full school. And also explore the whole drawback-maneuver mechanic.

[Anomander]

I'd love to review it, but I'd need a few pointers first before I look at what it offers.

I am unsure of exactly where it stands in the powerscales, so determining what is alright and what isn't is complicated (this is actually why I decided after reading that it was meant to be much stronger than regular Tobhou to not even look at the Venerable Battlefield discipline.).
There is one forbidden school, so comparing isn't really possible yet. Is it meant to be as strong as Venerable Battlefield?

You made Ancient Temple stronger because it required a feat, this one requires one as well but involves sacrifices as well, so probably one step higher... but there is a limit to how much stronger this can get they are so strong that, despite any sacrifice, it becomes the clear optimization path. Like the hellfire warlock. Most are already so good it can hardly get better without being broken.

I suppose Forbidden maneuvers count as maneuvers of their parent school for effects dependent on them, like most tactical feats, which would alleviate the need for them to have some of their own.

The thread is also called Forbidden Schools. Is the first post going to be the index, with every Forbiddens being put into posts along this thread?

Is every forbidden martial discipline going to use the same sacrifice system (minus maximum hp)? If not, it might be harder to evaluate as some sacrifices will be obviously harsher than others, thus justifying weaker/stronger forbidden maneuvers, creating even more fluctuations in the scales of power and making the whole thing even harder to properly evaluate.

Are they all meant to make their adepts more or less undefeatable?

Stuff like that. Just getting a better of where you are going with these.

[Caiphon]

You really like Kaguya, Don't you? 

I like it, but I feel it's kind of pointless. Don't get me wrong, you did a great job, but you are essentially killing your character a little bit every time you use this discipline ,  and for people who try to keep their characters alive (like me) it's not worth the risk. I get that it's the whole point of a "forbidden" discipline, but I think it would fit more for clearly evil or flawed characters (like Flandre, Tenshi, or Yuuka) rather than for Mokou.

Well, maybe it's just that I can't bring myself to think like that about Mokou, it's a matter of opinion.

Tip: some maneuvers are not as overpowered as you think (given the cost),  they are not as different as what any minmaxer could achieve.

I think it would need some playtest to see how it works, I'll try to test it in the next few weeks and see how it turns out..

C.

[oslecamo]

I'd love to review it, but I'd need a few pointers first before I look at what it offers.

I am unsure of exactly where it stands in the powerscales, so determining what is alright and what isn't is complicated (this is actually why I decided after reading that it was meant to be much stronger than regular Tobhou to not even look at the Venerable Battlefield discipline.).
There is one forbidden school, so comparing isn't really possible yet. Is it meant to be as strong as Venerable Battlefield?

Stronger at the lower maneuver levels, as strong at the higher maneuver levels since the divine ranks get harder and harder to unlock.

You made Ancient Temple stronger because it required a feat, this one requires one as well but involves sacrifices as well, so probably one step higher... but there is a limit to how much stronger this can get they are so strong that, despite any sacrifice, it becomes the clear optimization path. Like the hellfire warlock. Most are already so good it can hardly get better without being broken.

I'm not taking the feat that much in account actually, since it grants you a new maneuver right away so it's quite useful on itself as martial study of sorts.

I suppose Forbidden maneuvers count as maneuvers of their parent school for effects dependent on them, like most tactical feats, which would alleviate the need for them to have some of their own.

Yes.

The thread is also called Forbidden Schools. Is the first post going to be the index, with every Forbiddens being put into posts along this thread?

...You know what, I have a whole subforum for this, may as well put it to good use. Gonna move Immortal Smoke to its own thread after this.

Is every forbidden martial discipline going to use the same sacrifice system (minus maximum hp)? If not, it might be harder to evaluate as some sacrifices will be obviously harsher than others, thus justifying weaker/stronger forbidden maneuvers, creating even more fluctuations in the scales of power and making the whole thing even harder to properly evaluate.

Each will have diferent sacrifices (next one will be keyed to Plain History and cost you skill ranks every time you use it). Yes it will be harder to properly evaluate them, but where's the fun on taking the easy path?

Are they all meant to make their adepts more or less undefeatable?

No, that was more because the base character is "you can cook and eat me but you can't kill me b****" Mokou.

You really like Kaguya, Don't you? 

I like it, but I feel it's kind of pointless. Don't get me wrong, you did a great job, but you are essentially killing your character a little bit every time you use this discipline ,  and for people who try to keep their characters alive (like me) it's not worth the risk.

Well, that's for what there's the attonment option. You can "experiment" with it once and then seek relatively easy forgiveness. Once.

I get that it's the whole point of a "forbidden" discipline, but I think it would fit more for clearly evil or flawed characters (like Flandre, Tenshi, or Yuuka) rather than for Mokou.

Well, maybe it's just that I can't bring myself to think like that about Mokou, it's a matter of opinion.

Not really a matter of opinion but more of Mokou geting a lot less flak and a lot more praise from the fandom. But did you know that Mokou actually:
-Cowardly stole the hourai elixir of immortality just so she could spite Kaguya?
-Stole it by murdering the soldier carrying it?
-The same soldier that had saved her very life a couple days ago, cared for her and never ever threatened Mokou?
-That she has holded a murderous grudge for 1300 years just because Kaguya humiliated Mokou's father?

And yes, the "kaguya and Mokou kill each other in a daily basis and Mokou loves it" is from Mokou's very own game profile from Imperishable Night. She's the ultimate sadomasoquist, a b**** among b****s. Maye not evil per se, but there's something very flawed with someone whose best plan for over a millenia of immortality is hunting down the woman that refused your daddy's advances.

While living in a monster-infested forest, constantly starving and freezing to death because finding food or proper shelter is such a bother (her own words from an interview with Aya).

Tip: some maneuvers are not as overpowered as you think (given the cost),  they are not as different as what any minmaxer could achieve.

By all means point them out and state your reasonings.

I think it would need some playtest to see how it works, I'll try to test it in the next few weeks and see how it turns out..

Nice!

[Caiphon]

I'll point it out once I can confirm it, i'll just way 'till the playtest (my friends are a bunch of minmaxers so overpowered is not a problem), if I can keep up with them, then we have a problem

And you can't forget that (due to the legend it's based from), Kaguya's requests drove men insane while they tried to fullfil them, essentially driving them to death.
I'm sure Mokou should have been pretty pissed off when she found out  that her father had died while trying to marry Kaguya.

Also, in my opinion both of them are flawed characters, Mokou with her revenge and Kaguya with her overall bi****ness. Don't forget that she didn't actually reject man, she  made them think they had a chance,  that's not good at all!

And yes, Mokou is lazy to find shelter or such because she doesn't need to, in the hypothetical case that such behavior were evil or nasty in any way, Komachi and Meiling would also be, but they aren't.

And I wouldn't think of a reason why a frienldy, and loving character as Keine would befriend a her if she acted like a monster.

Finally, Kaguya (for me at least) was more of a pain that Mokou in IN (no, really, it took me half the practice to master the extra stage than kaguya's boss battle).

[oslecamo]

I'll point it out once I can confirm it, i'll just way 'till the playtest (my friends are a bunch of minmaxers so overpowered is not a problem), if I can keep up with them, then we have a problem

And you can't forget that (due to the legend it's based from), Kaguya's requests drove men insane while they tried to fullfil them, essentially driving them to death.

Actually, in the original legend most of them are basically taught a lesson on humility/honor as they try to cheat on the requests, and the few that do die get their just dessert for being specially greedy.  The way to satisfy Kaguya would've been to simply admit they couldn't acomplish her impossible requests.

I'm sure Mokou should have been pretty pissed off when she found out  that her father had died while trying to marry Kaguya.

Thing is, he didn't, just humiliated. Probably  got a lesson that riches and titles aren't everything.

Also, in my opinion both of them are flawed characters, Mokou with her revenge and Kaguya with her overall bi****ness. Don't forget that she didn't actually reject man, she  made them think they had a chance,  that's not good at all!

Then you missed one of the main points of her original story, that people need to recognize their own limits.

And yes, Mokou is lazy to find shelter or such because she doesn't need to, in the hypothetical case that such behavior were evil or nasty in any way, Komachi and Meiling would also be, but they aren't.

Komachi is another nasty one in leting souls pile up, and even she admits she's in risk of losing her job if she keeps like that (luckily heaven bureaucracy is extra slow).

Meiling isn't lazy at all actually, she's also a fandom flak victim, but in the games she actually works pretty hard watching over the devil mansion's gardens all by herself while "greeting" visitors, and even if she takes a nap now and then (who wouldn't with all the work she has), she snaps to action as soon as someone aproaches.

And I wouldn't think of a reason why a frienldy, and loving character as Keine would befriend a her if she acted like a monster.

As I already said Mokou isn't that bad of a girl as long as you don't point out you have any kind of relationship with kaguya (trial of guts? By Kaguya? You're clearly assassins sent by that b**** that "cursed" me with flawless immortality! BURN!!!)

Finally, Kaguya (for me at least) was more of a pain that Mokou in IN (no, really, it took me half the practice to master the extra stage than kaguya's boss battle).

That's just because Kaguya is higher level than Mokou, being older and stuff.

[Caiphon]

Komachi is awesome, either way

I guess i might have a different version of the story, i'll investigate a little.

also, even if mokou overreacted, what kind of reason do you think Kaguya had when she sent the girls to Mokou? (apart from bothering her, and giving ZUN a reason to make an extra stage  )

[oslecamo]

There's an official prologue for the Ex stage you know?

(click to show/hide)

===================================================================
■3．Extra Stage Story
====================================================================
   With the real moon's light shining on Gensokyo in the night, the angle of the sun in the
   afternoon became lower. This led to what humans called the perfect temperature.

   Gensokyo was as peaceful as ever.


      Reimu    "Ahh, geez. It's so boring."

   Hakurei Shrine, the shrine lying on the border of Gensokyo.
   The shrine maiden there was as bored as ever.


      Marisa    "Yeah~. Isn't there anything happening?
          Usually after a large-scale incident, there'd be aftershock-type events going on."
      Reimu    "It'd be better if it wasn't an incident."

   Marisa seemed pretty restless as well.


      Sakuya   "That's why this kind of setup is strange.
          Nothing seems to be happening."
      Marisa   "Maybe it's scared cuz we're all ready for it to happen?"

   The combination of a maid in a shrine was unexpectedly fitting.


      Youmu   "No, something will happen. Yuyuko-sama said so."
      Reimu   "......"

   Not a very credible claim.


   *ka-thonk*

   It wasn't the sound of a bamboo tube, but still a sound reverberating through their heads.
   That was how bored they were.


　――――

      Kaguya   "If you're that bored, since tonight's a full moon, go undertake a trial of guts."
      Reimu   "Hey! When did you come into my shrine?"

   The person that emerged from within the shrine was Kaguya. An alien.
   An ordinary person could not fathom the actions and thoughts of an alien.

      Marisa   "A trial of guts doesn't sound very scary."
      Kaguya   "Don't worry, when the full moon is shining brightly tonight, come to the bamboo
          forest at midnight and see for yourself. You'll taste the true meaning of terror.
          It's wonderful."

      Sakuya   "Hmm, you wouldn't happen to be planning anything, would you?"
      Kaguya   "It's not a trick or anything, but... it's scary, really. Far more than your
                         honourable mistress."

      Youmu   "A trial of guts... that's a bit..."
      Reimu   "How can a half-ghost be the one that's most scared about it?"


　――――

   Since everyone was bored, their appearance changed into one of interest.
   And Kaguya's actions clearly showed them that something strange was afoot.

      Reimu   "What'll happen if something occurs while we're undergoing this trial of guts."
      Marisa   "If she came to instigate us to this trial of guts, that means it's already the
                         incident's entrance."
      Sakuya   "Whatever happens, as long as we take turns and the rest remain at the shrine,
                         it'll be fine."
      Youmu   "Ehhh~, you're all really doing it~, it's a trial of guts~"

   Everyone was motivated.

      Kaguya   "Oh yes, that's right. Make sure you go on this trial of guts as a 2-person team
                         like you did when you came to me. That way if anything happens to one of you,
                         we'll find out quickly."
      Reimu   "This is definitely suspicious."
      Marisa   "Is this your revenge for that?"

      Kaguya   "What are you talking about? It's just to ensure the safety of you all."
      Sakuya   "That isn't something the instigator of the trial of guts should say."
      Youmu   "I definitely won't go alone."


　――――

   In the end, being bored and spurred on by Kaguya, they decided to set out at midnight that night to
        undertake the trial of guts.
   For the time being, the 4 of them went to call on their partners.

   In the first place, Gensokyo is filled with such things like youkai and ghosts.
   What could this extremely scary thing be?

      Kaguya   "If they carry out the extermination, it'll be a real help for me."

   As the true full moon shined brightly onto the bamboo forest, fairies and youkai beyond the
        imagination oF Reimu and co. ran rampant.
   This noisiness however wasn't the trial of guts, but was instead youkai extermination.

      Kaguya   "Now, the trial of guts. Let your guts shine through."

   It was said that eating a mermaid's guts would make you immortal...

[oslecamo]

After some testing around added a third, easier way of removing the penalties for using forbidden schools. Still makes spam non-desirable, but should make it easier for PCs to use them themselves.

[Raineh Daze]

Mokou's problem is actually more blatant insanity now than any problem back then. Honour was important. She's Heian nobility. The life of one soldier, over her father's honour? Meaningless.

Now, the fact that she's spent 1,000+ years moping around/killing people, probably done as much as is possible towards regaining said honour, and insists on abusing her body? She doesn't seem particularly grounded in reality.

This seems to be a pattern amongst Ex-Bosses (and if you think about it, a lot of them would pair nicely as 'forbidden' schools, especially Satori/Koishi), oddly. They rarely seem to be the sanest. XD


Why is Mystia paired with Keine, anyway?

[oslecamo]

There's a reason why they're Ex bosses-you already solved the main problem, but you can still go check on the crazy girl skulking at the bottom of the mansion/forest/temple.

As for Mystia/Keine:
-Stage 2-3 bosses on the same game.
-They both are based on obscuring the actual situation.
-They both have relatively honest businesses where they apply their powers (Keine is a teacher, Mystia causes night-blindness on travelers and then sells them fried lampreys claiming they cure night-blindness, upon which she removes the night-blindness curse).

[Raineh Daze]

Because tricking people into eating your stuff is 'honest', yup.

[Garryl]

There's a reason why they're Ex bosses-you already solved the main problem, but you can still go check on the crazy girl skulking at the bottom of the mansion/forest/temple.

As for Mystia/Keine:
-Stage 2-3 bosses on the same game.
-They both are based on obscuring the actual situation.
-They both have relatively honest businesses where they apply their powers (Keine is a teacher, Mystia causes night-blindness on travelers and then sells them fried lampreys claiming they cure night-blindness, upon which she removes the night-blindness curse).

It is a strange world where attacking and extorting people is "honest".

[oslecamo]

That's why I put in the "relatively". Reimu just goes out there and plunders whatever/whoever she finds when she's low on money, and she's the suposed shrine maiden of the land! Aya makes sure she gets news for her newspaper at all costs.  At least you get some delicious lamprey if you run into Mystia.

[Raineh Daze]

Marisa is a thief, Alice is little better, Yuyuko will eat all your stuff, Yukari abducts people and items... yup, Gensokyo is not a place where law holds. Might makes right!

[oslecamo]

Hey, Marisa does some mercenary honest jobs now and then! She'll take youkai extermination contracts, firework shows and she even has a shop if you feel like buying your stuff back.

Sakuya suposedly gets paid for being the Scarlet Mansion's maid/guard, and Remilia has been known for ordering furniture from the human village, but then she's a sophisticated rich girl because she's a vampire noble and stuff.

Youmu on the other hand has been stated to working like a slave all year long since she doesn't know any better.

Komachi seems to gets paid even when she lazes off, since she can afford to use money for danmaku.