Author Topic: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!  (Read 22998 times)

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 11:22:09 PM »
On the other hand a variety of different bows with varying enchantments means elemental resistances won't mean jack.

Offline veekie

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 03:29:09 AM »
There is a way around it. Don't use magic bows. Magic arrows ONLY.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2012, 03:32:47 AM »
The solution is Soulbow.
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Offline Vasja

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2012, 08:38:33 AM »
You could try getting the other players on board. If your whole group doesn't want to use the rule because it's not fun for them, you'll have a better chance of convincing the DM.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2012, 02:18:33 PM »
A game needs a DM and Players. Because he does most of the work, the DM usually gets two or three votes, but if everyone disagrees he doesn't have any leverage.

Offline radionausea

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2012, 07:23:30 AM »
ask that if they're going to use fumble rules then they have to go through every single weapon in the game, define what happens on a natural one, and then give the list of effects to the players.  House rules need to be clear to everyone from the outset after all.

That much boring work might discourage them.
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Offline Grant

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2012, 04:30:45 PM »
ask that if they're going to use fumble rules then they have to go through every single weapon in the game, define what happens on a natural one, and then give the list of effects to the players.  House rules need to be clear to everyone from the outset after all.

That much boring work might discourage them.
This is good advice. Not just because that sort of busy work may help deter the GM from using this particular mechanic—which as others have said is both bad math and poor simulationism—but because it:
  • greatly diminishes the "whatever penalty I feel like" factor, which can quickly become arbitrary and frustrating; and
  • offers opportunities to take feat or equipment choices which can compensate for these fumbles.
Push your GM hard for this, and make it clear that if his world works like this—with weapons flying and bowstrings snapping with remarkable frequency—then the denizens of his world will have developed tools and strategies to deal with that fact. Quite simply, nothing else makes sense. Someone suggested locking gauntlets earlier; that's a good start. I might also invent a custom weapon enchantment called 'self-repairing' for bows, crossbows, and other equipment which repairs the item quickly. If nothing else, the character who invented that in this world would be filthy rich almost instantly.

Honestly, one of the easiest solutions—albeit taxing to the player—are reroll feats and items. Anything that grants you a reroll on a d20 will greatly reduce the danger this rule poses... and may, again, help your GM realize how taxing it is. Once his NPCs are all using the same feats and equipment, you'll be able to point out to him how bad the problem really is.
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Offline Sjappo

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2012, 05:33:22 PM »
Crits need a second roll to confirm. Ask him to implement this for fumbles as well. Seems only fair. That at least will get the percentages down.
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Offline CE2JRH

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2012, 12:03:39 AM »
Also, in case you're wondering, reflex save DC 14 to avoid crit doesn't result in crazy weirdness, either. (A house rule I convinced my own DM out of).

The best critical paradigm I've seen is
1) Only crit on first attack of full attack sequence AND
2) Reflex save DC 14/some sort of crit confirmation

It makes the odds of failure low and solves much of the numbers messiness.

Also, if I'm a 20th level expert TWF making some 10 attacks a round (which isn't tough), my odds of fumbling are ~50% per round. I fumble every other round. The 1st level incompetent two handed fighter fumbles 1/10th that the 20th level does

Here's some math on the reflex save house rule.

[spoilerbutton=Dextrous Greatsword Wielder]
A relatively dextrous fighter (14 dex) who wields a greatsword, and gets boots of speed at 10, and Cloak of resistance +1 at 5, +2 at 10, +3 at 15 and +4 at 20.

Odds of critting and failing the save in any single round
Base rate (5% per attack) * odds of failing save.
Level 1: 5% --- 55% (+2) = 2.75% odds of critting failing per round
Level 2: 5% --- 55% (+2) = 2.75% odds of critting failing per round
Level 3: 5% --- 50% (+3) = 2.5% odds of critting failing per round
Level 4: 5% --- 50% (+3) = 2.5% odds of critting failing per round
Level 5: 5% --- 45% (+4) = 2.25% odds of critting failing per round
Level 6: 10% --- 40% (+5) = 4% odds of critting failing per round
Level 7: 10% --- 40% (+5) = 4% odds of critting failing per round
Level 8: 10% --- 40% (+5) = 3% odds of critting failing per round
Level 9: 10% --- 35% (+6) = 3.5% odds of critting failing per round
Level 10: 15% --- 30% (+7) = 4.5% odds of critting failing per round
Level 11: 20% --- 30% (+7) = 6% odds of critting failing per round
Level 12: 20% --- 25% (+8) = 5.% odds of critting failing per round
Level 13: 20% --- 25% (+8) = 5.% odds of critting failing per round
Level 14: 20% --- 25% (+8) = 5% odds of critting failing per round
Level 15: 20% --- 15% (+10) = 3% odds of critting failing per round
Level 16: 25% --- 15% (+10) = 3.75% odds of critting failing per round
Level 17: 25% --- 15% (+10) = 3.75% odds of critting failing per round
Level 18: 25% --- 10% (+11) = 2.5% odds of critting failing per round
Level 19: 25% --- 10% (+11) = 2.5% odds of critting failing per round
Level 20: 25% --- 5% (+12) = 1.25% odds of critting failing per round

Our relatively dextrous greatsword wielder is least likely to screw up and stab himself in the eye to most likely in this level ordering:

(Safer) -------------------------------------------------------------- (unsafe)
20 >>> 5 >>> 3, 4, 18, 19 >>> 1, 2 >>> 8, 15 >>> 9 >>> 16, 17 >>> 6, 7 >>> 10 >>> 12, 13, 14 >>> 11

As we can see hear, our greatsword fighter is safest in the low (1-5) or high (18-20) level ranges, and most likely to injure himself at the middle ranges (6-7, 10-14). Level 11 is particularly dangerous, where every minute of fighting, said fighter is likely (60%) to screw up and hurt himself, and basically guaranteed every 100 seconds (1 minute, 40 seconds) to injured himself. Contrast that with a novice of the blade, who in a minute is unlikely (27.5%) to injure himself, and is basically guaranteed to injure himself every 220 seconds (3 minutes, 40 seconds); a rate much less frequent than his expert acquaintance.
[/spoilerbutton]

[spoilerbutton=Dual Wielding Elven Ranger Friend]
Let's instead consider a dual wielding elven ranger friend:
Dex 20, +1 at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. +2 at 5, 10, 15, and +1 saves at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. Boots of speed at 10 again.

Base rate (5% per attack) * odds of failing save.
Level 1: 10% * 30% (+7) = 3% odds of critical failure per round
Level 2: 10% * 25% (+8) = 2.5% odds of critical failure per round
Level 3: 10% * 25% (+8) = 2.5% odds of critical failure per round
Level 4: 10% * 20% (+9) = 2% odds of critical failure per round
Level 5: 10% * 10% (+11) = 1% odds of critical failure per round
Level 6: 20% * 5% (+12) = 1% odds of critical failure per round
Level 7: 20% * 5% (+12) = 1% odds of critical failure per round
Level 8: 20% * 5% (+15) = 1% odds of critical failure per round
Level 9: 20% * 5% (+15) = 1% odds of critical failure per round
Level 10: 25% * 5% (+18) = 1.25% odds of critical failure per round
Level 11: 30% * 5% (+18) = 1.5% odds of critical failure per round
Level 12: 35% * 5% (+20) = 1.75% odds of critical failure per round
Level 13: 35% * 5% (+20) = 1.75% odds of critical failure per round
Level 14: 35% * 5% (+21)  = 1.75% odds of critical failure per round
Level 15: 35% * 5% (+22) = 1.75% odds of critical failure per round
Level 16: 40% * 5% (+25) = 2% odds of critical failure per round
Level 17: 40% * 5% (+25) = 2% odds of critical failure per round
Level 18: 40% * 5% (+26)  = 2% odds of critical failure per round
Level 19: 40% * 5% (+26) = 2% odds of critical failure per round
Level 20: 40% * 5% (+28) = 2% odds of critical failure per round

Breaking down this saves chart:
Dexterity: +5 at 1, +6 at 5, +7 at 8, +9 at 10, +10 at 15, +11 at 16.  (+2 item at 5/10/15, +2 at 8/16 from levelling up). Item at 4/8/12/16/20.
Safer ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unsafe

5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ---> 10 ---->  11 >>>>>>> 12, 13, 14, 15 >>>>>> 4, 6, 7, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 >>> 2, 3 >>> 1

For this character, their best levels for avoiding crits are early-middle (5-11) At their peak (5-9), they only screw up every 10 minutes of fighting, which is exactly what I'd expect from a swords expert...though that goes down to every 5 minutes at their true expertise. At their first level they are indeed least able to successfully fight, with some sort of accident every 200 seconds (3 minutes, 20 seconds).
[/spoilerbutton]

Offline Sjappo

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2012, 07:43:15 AM »
Why not just the same mechanism as with Crits? Confirm the Fumble by missing again. The mechanism keeps sucking though. The confirm roll is just damage controll. Fumbles need to leave the table.

On the flip side. If you're DM is one who loves big battles and throws many low level mooks at you. Or creatures with lots of attacks. He'll be the one taking the brunt of the fumbles. But from your description it seems you can only fumble with manufactured weapons. Sucks. That would mean the DM is immune. As been suggested before there should be fumble rules for each weapon or weapon type.

By god I'm glad my DM ditched his fumble rules.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2012, 10:14:10 AM »
In the one-shot, he only sent one enemy at a time against us.  Granted, we only had 5 people in the party (and lacked the Druid's companion), but still, if he continues that trend, we won't be winning the fumbles fight.

I tried talking with him to at least tone down the penalty for archers to something reasonable, even stating that in reality it doesn't take that long to string a bow for a complete newb with a bow (it doesn't, my first time stringing a bow it was done within 30 seconds).  Yeah, he didn't change a thing.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2012, 10:34:14 AM »
Time for everyone to play spellcasters.
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2012, 02:55:46 PM »
Have you talked to the other players to get them on board with you?  Of course, they're probably newbies who don't realize how screwed they are and how crazy/unrealistic the fumble rules are.

Your DM's houserule is atrocious, I feel really bad for the archers...

Offline Sjappo

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2012, 02:56:33 PM »
In the one-shot, he only sent one enemy at a time against us.  Granted, we only had 5 people in the party (and lacked the Druid's companion), but still, if he continues that trend, we won't be winning the fumbles fight.

I tried talking with him to at least tone down the penalty for archers to something reasonable, even stating that in reality it doesn't take that long to string a bow for a complete newb with a bow (it doesn't, my first time stringing a bow it was done within 30 seconds).  Yeah, he didn't change a thing.
Well, if he won't listen to reason (I mean a one round penalty for something that happens once every 20 attacks is bad, let alone a 50 round penalty) and won't listen to the mayority of the group I say ditch the critical hits as well. If that option is still open. Crit fishing is nice and all but something you can work around. As a volley archer you cannot work around this stupid Fumble rule.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2012, 03:03:27 PM »
Or suggest to the other group members that they quit this DM's game and form their own. You have enough people for it.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2012, 03:12:11 PM »
...
Well, if he won't listen to reason (I mean a one round penalty for something that happens once every 20 attacks is bad, let alone a 50 round penalty) and won't listen to the mayority of the group I say ditch the critical hits as well. If that option is still open. Crit fishing is nice and all but something you can work around. As a volley archer you cannot work around this stupid Fumble rule.
I've already made my opinions known in this thread, but I wanted to take a second to pivot off of this.  The bolded portion is my issue with this house rule, although it's something that comes up in the rules that are printed in the books as well.

Pretty much any rule or rule interpretation that eliminates a character concept as viable -- not to mention one that is an an archetypal staple of fantasy games/literature -- is bad.

Offline Sjappo

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2012, 03:40:52 PM »
...
Well, if he won't listen to reason (I mean a one round penalty for something that happens once every 20 attacks is bad, let alone a 50 round penalty) and won't listen to the mayority of the group I say ditch the critical hits as well. If that option is still open. Crit fishing is nice and all but something you can work around. As a volley archer you cannot work around this stupid Fumble rule.
Pretty much any rule or rule interpretation that eliminates a character concept as viable -- not to mention one that is an an archetypal staple of fantasy games/literature -- is bad.
Nicely put.
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Offline Eagle of Fire

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2012, 11:30:19 AM »
The amount of bad faith and ignorance in this thread is astounding. Somehow I didn't expect much more from this board though. So I won't even bother with that.

On the other hand, I'm a DM who use fumble rules too. And the players like it instead of the opposite. Why? Well, first I don't use a single result for a fumble. The char dropping his/her weapon is indeed a classic, however I also use a plethora of other results which add up and spice up the game. For example, the char in question might loose footing and drop on the ground instead. Sometimes, rarely, I unstrung a bow for an archer (only requiring a complex action to restring)  but most of the time I ask the archer in question to roll a directional D8 and see if he/she hit a friendly instead. Otherwise the shot just go loose. Sometimes I simply use my imagination and write up an original reaction on the stop. Oftentime the current situation will scream out for a particular humoristic fumble and I'm always happy to oblige.

It is always fun when players start remembering encounters by memorable dire moment they managed to get out of.

And of course, what balance everything back in the end: the monsters fumbles too. Players stop whining when they realize that the monsters fumble more than them simply because they are more numerous in a swarm or when a big, strong monster fumbles and open strike possibilities they would not have otherwise.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2012, 11:47:45 AM »
    The amount of bad faith and ignorance in this thread is astounding. Somehow I didn't expect much more from this board though. So I won't even bother with that.
    The argument was:
    • Real people with weapon training don't fumble very often, certainly less than 5% of the time.
    • Since the PCs have massively superhuman fighting skill they should make fewer mistakes than real people.
    • High-level PCs make more attack rolls (and thus roll 1 more often), thus fumbling on a 1 means that superhuman fighting skill causes you to make more mistakes than a real person.
    • Spellcasters are unaffected since they don't need to use attack rolls, meaning the power gap between magic and mundanes becomes even larger.

    Which part of this was incorrect?

    Quote
    And of course, what balance everything back in the end: the monsters fumbles too.
    That isn't how probability works. Increasing the randomness in a fight favours the weaker side, which is usually the monsters. Using larger numbers of weaker monsters increases the number of fumbles, but also reduces the impact of each one.
    « Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 12:08:50 PM by Prime32 »

    Offline Sohala

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    Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
    « Reply #39 on: October 21, 2012, 12:12:00 PM »
    Energy Bows to fix the breaking string?
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    "No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."

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