Author Topic: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!  (Read 22999 times)

Offline Eagle of Fire

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Moderately experienced 3.5 GM
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2012, 12:27:48 PM »
Quote
That isn't how probability works. Increasing the randomness in a fight favours the weaker side, which is usually the monsters. Using larger numbers of weaker monsters increases the number of fumbles, but also reduces the impact of each one.
Quite true, however you don't increase the randomness with fumbles. The critical on 1's always been there; it is not like you are increasing it to 1 and 2's like an improved critical feat (for example). The only difference is the result, or if you want an added action to the total result.

For the rest, I did say I would not bother. Let's just say that the only thing I agree with in this thread is that fighters or archers rarely drop their weapons on their own. Nobody ever said the crit need to be a weapon drop. Anybody can slip on uneven terrain and fall down in the middle of combat, even an experienced weapon user.

It is why I posted options for the thread starter to bring to his DM. It was the only reason.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2012, 12:36:48 PM »
The amount of bad faith and ignorance in this thread is astounding. Somehow I didn't expect much more from this board though. So I won't even bother with that.
I think what you're calling "bad faith" is either (a) an attempt to avoid the fumbles, which is simply IP Proofing made extremely necessary, aka standard optimization tactics; or (b) an attempt to show the DM exactly why a critical fumble rule is bad.

Quote
On the other hand, I'm a DM who use fumble rules too. And the players like it instead of the opposite. Why? Well, first I don't use a single result for a fumble. The char dropping his/her weapon is indeed a classic, however I also use a plethora of other results which add up and spice up the game. For example, the char in question might loose footing and drop on the ground instead. Sometimes, rarely, I unstrung a bow for an archer (only requiring a complex action to restring)  but most of the time I ask the archer in question to roll a directional D8 and see if he/she hit a friendly instead. Otherwise the shot just go loose. Sometimes I simply use my imagination and write up an original reaction on the stop. Oftentime the current situation will scream out for a particular humoristic fumble and I'm always happy to oblige.
So you just make something up when a player fumbles?  That has a couple problems, namely (a) it depends on DM skill, so what works for you may not work for others, and (b) it's impossible for a player to predict what can happen, so they can't take steps to mitigate it, so your random effect could arbitrarily lead to PC death.

Quote
It is always fun when players start remembering encounters by memorable dire moment they managed to get out of.

And of course, what balance everything back in the end: the monsters fumbles too. Players stop whining when they realize that the monsters fumble more than them simply because they are more numerous in a swarm or when a big, strong monster fumbles and open strike possibilities they would not have otherwise.
There are a lot more monsters than PCs.  And the PCs only have to die once.

EDIT: The "critical on 1" only means that you miss, not that you then have to mess around dealing with other problems.

Can creatures be immune to fumbles like a monster can be immune to critical hits?  Can a player enchant their armor or weapon with something that gives them a 25% chance to negate a fumble, just like Fortification?  Does the player have to confirm a fumble like they have to confirm a critical hit?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 12:38:36 PM by sirpercival »
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Eagle of Fire

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Moderately experienced 3.5 GM
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2012, 01:36:19 PM »
I think what you're calling "bad faith" is either (a) an attempt to avoid the fumbles, which is simply IP Proofing made extremely necessary, aka standard optimization tactics; or (b) an attempt to show the DM exactly why a critical fumble rule is bad.

No. What I call bad faith is people who jump to the barricades simply because a DM want to use a rule which lower their mechanical ability in combat. I see it happen way too often on those boards and it is not really surprising since so many people seem to hold the mechanical aspect of the game as an immovable force of the universe. Using sarcasm in a humourous attempt to completely dismiss the case only because it is convenient is also both bad faith and ignorance in my book.

I have no problems with people trying to find ways to lessen the problem as long as it is a legal way in the system. As a matter of fact, I do remember there is a feat in complete soundrel which turns your critical misses into critical hits. I don't know if it was mentioned in this thread, might be interesting for people to check.

Quote
On the other hand, I'm a DM who use fumble rules too. And the players like it instead of the opposite. Why? Well, first I don't use a single result for a fumble. The char dropping his/her weapon is indeed a classic, however I also use a plethora of other results which add up and spice up the game. For example, the char in question might loose footing and drop on the ground instead. Sometimes, rarely, I unstrung a bow for an archer (only requiring a complex action to restring)  but most of the time I ask the archer in question to roll a directional D8 and see if he/she hit a friendly instead. Otherwise the shot just go loose. Sometimes I simply use my imagination and write up an original reaction on the stop. Oftentime the current situation will scream out for a particular humoristic fumble and I'm always happy to oblige.
Quote
So you just make something up when a player fumbles?  That has a couple problems, namely (a) it depends on DM skill, so what works for you may not work for others, and (b) it's impossible for a player to predict what can happen, so they can't take steps to mitigate it, so your random effect could arbitrarily lead to PC death.
A) Possibly true but a good DM need to be able to improvise. Otherwise the DM in question will never be really 'good'. PCs never do what the DM think up, or do it differently. A DM should already be used to do that all the time.
B) Being impossible to predict is precisely the whole point. What would be the point of criticals if it wasn't to have a rare but unpredictable event possibly changing the whole battle? Can't an unlucky PC also already die from a lucky crit plus maxed damage dice from a strong monster? Isn't the whole point of going adventuring (as a whole, as in why the char in question has choosen to be an adventurer in the first place) not knowing what you will expect versus, I don't know... Staying home as the town blacksmith?

Anyways, my simple answer to point B is this: if we didn't want the game to be random in the first place, we would not be using dice. The whole point is not to know in advance what would happen. Otherwise it would be a story in which you participate on the side, not a real personal adventure.

Quote
It is always fun when players start remembering encounters by memorable dire moment they managed to get out of.

And of course, what balance everything back in the end: the monsters fumbles too. Players stop whining when they realize that the monsters fumble more than them simply because they are more numerous in a swarm or when a big, strong monster fumbles and open strike possibilities they would not have otherwise.
Quote
There are a lot more monsters than PCs.  And the PCs only have to die once.

EDIT: The "critical on 1" only means that you miss, not that you then have to mess around dealing with other problems.

Can creatures be immune to fumbles like a monster can be immune to critical hits?  Can a player enchant their armor or weapon with something that gives them a 25% chance to negate a fumble, just like Fortification?  Does the player have to confirm a fumble like they have to confirm a critical hit?

I am sorry, but I do not understand your comment about dying. Yes monsters die all the time, but PCs can die too? Or is it that PCs never die in your games? There is various ways to bring a character back to life. Once again, the game would not be as interesting without the risk involved and having nobody in life threatening danger (or at least having his interests threatened) during a whole campaing is a sure way to make it going dull.

As for your edit... I don't have my books here, but from memory a critical miss in combat also mean that monsters in range get an attack of oportunity and that you lose the rest of your turn. As far as I know, those are already inside the normal rules. Adding fumble rules only add a small event to all this which force you to react. I see it more like a drop of water in a vase. Yes, that one drop can tip the water off... But again, what can't? In the end it is all a sum which determine the end result and the players can affect the vast majority of those drops already.

As for the other questions... Those are already covered in the base rules.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2012, 01:41:18 PM »
Eagle of Fire, why should an archer have to spend five minutes re-stringing a bow if he rolls a one, even if this is not how archery works at all?
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Bozwevial

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3052
  • Developing a relaxed attitude toward danger
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2012, 02:00:58 PM »
Quote
That isn't how probability works. Increasing the randomness in a fight favours the weaker side, which is usually the monsters. Using larger numbers of weaker monsters increases the number of fumbles, but also reduces the impact of each one.
Quite true, however you don't increase the randomness with fumbles. The critical on 1's always been there; it is not like you are increasing it to 1 and 2's like an improved critical feat (for example). The only difference is the result, or if you want an added action to the total result.
No. Increasing the number of attacks made on a side means that critical fumbles happen more frequently, and if you are changing the result to be unpredictable as opposed to an automatic miss, that is by definition increased randomness. It becomes even more unpredictable if the fumble result is partially dependent on the situation, because while a table has a fixed number of entries (and a fixed number of ways in which you could be screwed over), if the DM makes up a result all bets are off.
Homebrew Compendiums: D&D 3.5 4e/PF
IRC: #mmxgeneral on Rizon

Offline Eagle of Fire

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Moderately experienced 3.5 GM
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2012, 02:06:21 PM »
I am sorry Bozwevial but I disagree. The fumble rules only affect what happen following the critical, not the chance to roll another 1 or another 20 on the next roll.

The battle as a whole get more random, yes. Not the chances of doing anything though. It won't change your future odds at all.

You could still wage 6 battles without a single critical or a single fumble. That's randomness for ya.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2012, 02:08:36 PM »
Eagle, I'd be gratified if you could take a moment out of your busy schedule to answer the question I posted three posts up.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Bozwevial

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3052
  • Developing a relaxed attitude toward danger
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2012, 02:12:07 PM »
I am sorry Bozwevial but I disagree. The fumble rules only affect what happen following the critical, not the chance to roll another 1 or another 20 on the next roll.

The battle as a whole get more random, yes. Not the chances of doing anything though. It won't change your future odds at all.

You could still wage 6 battles without a single critical or a single fumble. That's randomness for ya.
If you have a critical fumble result which would involve you dropping your sword, and your plans include stabbing a monster, then yes, they do in fact change your future odds of stabbing, because each and every attack you make carries a rider chance which says you aren't even permitted to attempt the check.
Homebrew Compendiums: D&D 3.5 4e/PF
IRC: #mmxgeneral on Rizon

Offline Sjappo

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
    • View Profile
    • Home Sweet Home
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2012, 02:12:59 PM »
No. What I call bad faith is people who jump to the barricades simply because a DM want to use a rule which lower their mechanical ability in combat. I see it happen way too often on those boards and it is not really surprising since so many people seem to hold the mechanical aspect of the game as an immovable force of the universe. Using sarcasm in a humourous attempt to completely dismiss the case only because it is convenient is also both bad faith and ignorance in my book.
Not lowers, destroys. An archer getting a 1 on the first round of combat is out of the combat. Maybe not using your fumble rules, but using the rules quoted bij the OP it does. This chance gets higher the higher level (= more attacks) the archer is. That is a problem, any sarcasm aside.

Quote
Anyways, my simple answer to point B is this: if we didn't want the game to be random in the first place, we would not be using dice. The whole point is not to know in advance what would happen. Otherwise it would be a story in which you participate on the side, not a real personal adventure.

It is always fun when players start remembering encounters by memorable dire moment they managed to get out of.
This is true. For me a reason not to IP. Because if you succeed at it you don't have to throw a die ever again. And where is the fun in that.

The problem with fumbles is that you don't need to confirm it, resulting in a higher chance to fail horribly than to succeed magnifically. This is a) doubly true for hight level characters and b) stinks.

Quote
And of course, what balance everything back in the end: the monsters fumbles too. Players stop whining when they realize that the monsters fumble more than them simply because they are more numerous in a swarm or when a big, strong monster fumbles and open strike possibilities they would not have otherwise.
Quote
There are a lot more monsters than PCs.  And the PCs only have to die once.

EDIT: The "critical on 1" only means that you miss, not that you then have to mess around dealing with other problems.

Can creatures be immune to fumbles like a monster can be immune to critical hits?  Can a player enchant their armor or weapon with something that gives them a 25% chance to negate a fumble, just like Fortification?  Does the player have to confirm a fumble like they have to confirm a critical hit?

I am sorry, but I do not understand your comment about dying. Yes monsters die all the time, but PCs can die too? Or is it that PCs never die in your games? There is various ways to bring a character back to life. Once again, the game would not be as interesting without the risk involved and having nobody in life threatening danger (or at least having his interests threatened) during a whole campaing is a sure way to make it going dull.
PC's should die because they made tactical errors or by players choice. Certainly not because some unlucky basterd had a 1 come up and decapatated himself (legendary fumble with a vorpal weapon. Thank Garry for that one).

Quote
As for your edit... I don't have my books here, but from memory a critical miss in combat also mean that monsters in range get an attack of oportunity and that you lose the rest of your turn. As far as I know, those are already inside the normal rules. Adding fumble rules only add a small event to all this which force you to react. I see it more like a drop of water in a vase. Yes, that one drop can tip the water off... But again, what can't? In the end it is all a sum which determine the end result and the players can affect the vast majority of those drops already.
Sorry but no. A 1 is just an automiss. Which is a problem in and of itself, meaning a lvl 20 fighter will miss a goblin once every 20 strikes. Ever see a true martial arts master miss against a starting pupil? Once every 20 lessons maybe.

Comming from 2E I do have a soft spot inside me for fumble rules. And they can be very humoristic. But their effect needs to be instantaneous, not lingering in following rounds. And the chances should typically be lower than crit chances and dropping as characters gain levels. I've never seen that implemented by a DM, myself included, so they have to go.
"You know you count as artillery when it would be easier to use divination magic to locate your target than a spot check"

Offline Vasja

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 109
  • I always edit posts just after posting.
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2012, 02:13:42 PM »
It has nothing to do with bad faith. It has everything to do with experienced DMs and players calling a bad rule when they see it. Critical fumbles unfairly punish the characters that are already some of the weakest in the game.

Not to mention that Snakeman specifically asked about how to convince his DM that the rule wasn't fun. Pretty sure players and DMs having fun is the most important part of this game.

Offline Eagle of Fire

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Moderately experienced 3.5 GM
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2012, 02:16:43 PM »
Calling it a bad rule is only your personal opinion. Not a certainty.

I play with those rules. I use them every game. My players and myself are having more fun this way. Plus, the unbalancing effect you fear are non existant. It is only a different approach to the same game.

Bad faith is calling something bad only because you don't want to bother even trying.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2012, 02:19:21 PM »
I think what you're calling "bad faith" is either (a) an attempt to avoid the fumbles, which is simply IP Proofing made extremely necessary, aka standard optimization tactics; or (b) an attempt to show the DM exactly why a critical fumble rule is bad.

No. What I call bad faith is people who jump to the barricades simply because a DM want to use a rule which lower their mechanical ability in combat. I see it happen way too often on those boards and it is not really surprising since so many people seem to hold the mechanical aspect of the game as an immovable force of the universe. Using sarcasm in a humourous attempt to completely dismiss the case only because it is convenient is also both bad faith and ignorance in my book.
There are lots of houserules which lower peoples' mechanical ability in combat.  Here are 3 reasons people jump to the barricades for critical fumbles in particular:

1) It worsens mundane characters while not making any difference to spellcasters, who are already far superior than mundanes.
2) Because it's a flat 5% chance per die roll, characters who make more attacks (i.e., more powerful characters) will be more likely to fail than weaker characters.  If you create a god of combat who makes 20 attacks per round, that means that on average that character will be critically fumbling once per round, compared to a 1st-level warrior who will critically fumble once per 20 rounds (or every 5 combats per so), which breaks verisimilitude in half.
3) Less importantly, there are things one can do to mitigate crits; however, fumbles aren't supported in the rules, and the DMs who houserule them rarely create materials for PCs to mitigate fumbles.

Quote
I have no problems with people trying to find ways to lessen the problem as long as it is a legal way in the system. As a matter of fact, I do remember there is a feat in complete soundrel which turns your critical misses into critical hits. I don't know if it was mentioned in this thread, might be interesting for people to check.
No, it only works on saving throws.

Quote
Quote
On the other hand, I'm a DM who use fumble rules too. And the players like it instead of the opposite. Why? Well, first I don't use a single result for a fumble. The char dropping his/her weapon is indeed a classic, however I also use a plethora of other results which add up and spice up the game. For example, the char in question might loose footing and drop on the ground instead. Sometimes, rarely, I unstrung a bow for an archer (only requiring a complex action to restring)  but most of the time I ask the archer in question to roll a directional D8 and see if he/she hit a friendly instead. Otherwise the shot just go loose. Sometimes I simply use my imagination and write up an original reaction on the stop. Oftentime the current situation will scream out for a particular humoristic fumble and I'm always happy to oblige.
Quote
So you just make something up when a player fumbles?  That has a couple problems, namely (a) it depends on DM skill, so what works for you may not work for others, and (b) it's impossible for a player to predict what can happen, so they can't take steps to mitigate it, so your random effect could arbitrarily lead to PC death.
A) Possibly true but a good DM need to be able to improvise. Otherwise the DM in question will never be really 'good'. PCs never do what the DM think up, or do it differently. A DM should already be used to do that all the time.
Which is why it depends on DM skill.
Quote
B) Being impossible to predict is precisely the whole point. What would be the point of criticals if it wasn't to have a rare but unpredictable event possibly changing the whole battle? Can't an unlucky PC also already die from a lucky crit plus maxed damage dice from a strong monster? Isn't the whole point of going adventuring (as a whole, as in why the char in question has choosen to be an adventurer in the first place) not knowing what you will expect versus, I don't know... Staying home as the town blacksmith?

Anyways, my simple answer to point B is this: if we didn't want the game to be random in the first place, we would not be using dice. The whole point is not to know in advance what would happen. Otherwise it would be a story in which you participate on the side, not a real personal adventure.
This isn't really an argument... lots of things in a campaign are unknown.  And yes, an unlucky PC can die from a crit from a monster.  It's much more interesting and heroic if the hero dies that way than because he slipped and fell and broke his neck.  If that kind of thing works for you and your gaming group, then great!  I'm not telling you how to have fun.  But don't use that as proof that critical fumbles don't make the game worse for most people, particularly anyone who doesn't play a spellcaster.

Quote
Quote
It is always fun when players start remembering encounters by memorable dire moment they managed to get out of.

And of course, what balance everything back in the end: the monsters fumbles too. Players stop whining when they realize that the monsters fumble more than them simply because they are more numerous in a swarm or when a big, strong monster fumbles and open strike possibilities they would not have otherwise.
Quote
There are a lot more monsters than PCs.  And the PCs only have to die once.

EDIT: The "critical on 1" only means that you miss, not that you then have to mess around dealing with other problems.

Can creatures be immune to fumbles like a monster can be immune to critical hits?  Can a player enchant their armor or weapon with something that gives them a 25% chance to negate a fumble, just like Fortification?  Does the player have to confirm a fumble like they have to confirm a critical hit?

I am sorry, but I do not understand your comment about dying. Yes monsters die all the time, but PCs can die too? Or is it that PCs never die in your games? There is various ways to bring a character back to life. Once again, the game would not be as interesting without the risk involved and having nobody in life threatening danger (or at least having his interests threatened) during a whole campaing is a sure way to make it going dull.
Of course PCs should be able to die.  But again, they should die doing something important rather than from dropping their sword on their femoral artery.

The point of playing a PC is to be a hero in an epic story, usually one of taking on hordes of monsters.  If the monsters kill you, then you can't play.  Having a PC die should be a major event, not an everyday occurrence, because it changes the dynamics of the plot.

Quote
As for your edit... I don't have my books here, but from memory a critical miss in combat also mean that monsters in range get an attack of oportunity and that you lose the rest of your turn. As far as I know, those are already inside the normal rules. Adding fumble rules only add a small event to all this which force you to react. I see it more like a drop of water in a vase. Yes, that one drop can tip the water off... But again, what can't? In the end it is all a sum which determine the end result and the players can affect the vast majority of those drops already.
No, that's not a rule at all.  A critical miss means you automatically miss with your attack.  That's it.  What you're describing is a critical fumble houserule.  If you thought that was in the base rules, than I can understand why you're confused that other people are getting up in arms about critical fumbles, because as you said it's a much smaller step from that viewpoint.  But that's not an actual rule, and it really is even worse than just dropping your weapon.  I would be hard-pressed to EVER play a melee character in those circumstances.

Quote
As for the other questions... Those are already covered in the base rules.
Yes, which speaks to my points above.  Enemy crits can kill you, but there are things you can do to mitigate them.  If your own fumbles can kill you too, there should be things you can do to mitigate them, but no one ever includes those.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 02:21:12 PM by sirpercival »
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Eagle of Fire

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Moderately experienced 3.5 GM
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2012, 02:19:44 PM »
Quote
Eagle, I'd be gratified if you could take a moment out of your busy schedule to answer the question I posted three posts up.

I almost missed that post.

I didn't reply to your first question because I already answered it before you asked your question. Since you're one of those who seemed to laugh the whole matter up in the rest of the thread and that you are obviously trying to bait me into replying, I didn't find obligated to oblige you with an answer.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2012, 02:23:11 PM »
Calling it a bad rule is only your personal opinion. Not a certainty.

I play with those rules. I use them every game. My players and myself are having more fun this way. Plus, the unbalancing effect you fear are non existant. It is only a different approach to the same game.

Bad faith is calling something bad only because you don't want to bother even trying.
What's your definition of a "bad rule"?

I have to say, I've played games with critical fumbles before.  They were far more frustrating than games without.  So does your experience overrule mine?  Only when it comes to your games.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2012, 02:26:31 PM »
Quote
Eagle, I'd be gratified if you could take a moment out of your busy schedule to answer the question I posted three posts up.

I almost missed that post.

I didn't reply to your first question because I already answered it before you asked your question. Since you're one of those who seemed to laugh the whole matter up in the rest of the thread and that you are obviously trying to bait me into replying, I didn't find obligated to oblige you with an answer.
The courtesy of your hall is somewhat lessened of late, Eagle of Fire.

Quote
For the rest, I did say I would not bother. Let's just say that the only thing I agree with in this thread is that fighters or archers rarely drop their weapons on their own. Nobody ever said the crit need to be a weapon drop. Anybody can slip on uneven terrain and fall down in the middle of combat, even an experienced weapon user.
I find that interesting, because according to the OP,
Quote
Apparently, a nat 1 with your bow causes the bowstring to break, requiring 5 minutes to re-string it.  A nat 1 on a melee weapon causes you to drop the weapon.  I have no idea for other attack rolls.
So apparently someone did say that a natural one needs to be a weapon drop.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Sjappo

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
    • View Profile
    • Home Sweet Home
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2012, 02:29:57 PM »
Quote
Eagle, I'd be gratified if you could take a moment out of your busy schedule to answer the question I posted three posts up.

I almost missed that post.

I didn't reply to your first question because I already answered it before you asked your question. Since you're one of those who seemed to laugh the whole matter up in the rest of the thread and that you are obviously trying to bait me into replying, I didn't find obligated to oblige you with an answer.
The point is that while your fumble rules might suite your style as DM and your group do you think that punishing an archer with a 5 minute (50! rounds) sitdown for getting a fumble is fair?

You might have answered that in one of your posts but then i've missed it as well.
"You know you count as artillery when it would be easier to use divination magic to locate your target than a spot check"

Offline Bozwevial

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3052
  • Developing a relaxed attitude toward danger
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2012, 02:30:07 PM »
Calling it a bad rule is only your personal opinion. Not a certainty.

I play with those rules. I use them every game. My players and myself are having more fun this way. Plus, the unbalancing effect you fear are non existant. It is only a different approach to the same game.
Any rule you add to a game has to provide some advantages which outweigh its added complexity, otherwise adding it is counterproductive.

Fumble rules unfairly punish players, because they have a much greater chance of falling afoul of them than any given monster. They make more attack rolls over time, so their chances of never fumbling decrease greatly.

Fumble rules unfairly punish nonspellcasters, because spellcasters make fewer attack rolls and have no equivalent chance of botching a spell.

Fumble rules unfairly punish higher level characters, because they are more likely to fumble an attack in a round than their lower level counterparts, which is completely at odds with the notion that they are more skilled.

Fumble rules don't match source material very well. Very few climactic combats involve warriors dropping their swords every two minutes on average (or more frequently, if you have higher level characters involved).

And did I mention that a 1st level fighter has a 5% chance of fumbling during the round, but a 20th level fighter has an 18.55% chance of doing the same thing? Because that is complete bullshit.
Homebrew Compendiums: D&D 3.5 4e/PF
IRC: #mmxgeneral on Rizon

Offline Eagle of Fire

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Moderately experienced 3.5 GM
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2012, 02:31:57 PM »
Calling it a bad rule is only your personal opinion. Not a certainty.

I play with those rules. I use them every game. My players and myself are having more fun this way. Plus, the unbalancing effect you fear are non existant. It is only a different approach to the same game.

Bad faith is calling something bad only because you don't want to bother even trying.
What's your definition of a "bad rule"?

I have to say, I've played games with critical fumbles before.  They were far more frustrating than games without.  So does your experience overrule mine?  Only when it comes to your games.
Well, that's pretty much my whole point there. Why would my experience overwrite yours? Why would yours overwrite mine?

I'm not the one who said this rule was bad. I'm not the one who said this rule was good either.

I wonder where we're going with this discussion... :P

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2012, 02:33:17 PM »
I think EoF is suffering from a corollary to the Oberoni Fallacy.  "Rule X is not bad because we use it in my games and my games are fun!"

Just because you use Rule X in your game and your games are fun, does not mean that Rule X is not bad.

EDIT:
Calling it a bad rule is only your personal opinion. Not a certainty.

I play with those rules. I use them every game. My players and myself are having more fun this way. Plus, the unbalancing effect you fear are non existant. It is only a different approach to the same game.

Bad faith is calling something bad only because you don't want to bother even trying.
What's your definition of a "bad rule"?

I have to say, I've played games with critical fumbles before.  They were far more frustrating than games without.  So does your experience overrule mine?  Only when it comes to your games.
Well, that's pretty much my whole point there. Why would my experience overwrite yours? Why would yours overwrite mine?

I'm not the one who said this rule was bad. I'm not the one who said this rule was good either.

I wonder where we're going with this discussion... :P

You should read my other post, it responds to your stuff in more detail.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Eagle of Fire

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Moderately experienced 3.5 GM
    • View Profile
Re: Ack! The DM uses fumble rules!
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2012, 02:35:47 PM »
Okay... I can't have 3 conversations going on at once... I keep hitting the 'quote' button on long Percival post but everytime I do I have a warning telling me someone posted something else.

Just saying because I don't want people to think I'm ignoring them. I just can't keep up with this speed.