Pre-game and "mother-may-I"s with the DM

[ariasderros]

I like shifter druids, personally.  With or without Moonspeaker.

BTW -- if you're going to be a druid, go with a Wild Reaper variant from Dragon Mag something. You get turn undead & fast ability healing.

Reaper:

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2 skill points per level (instead of 4), add Intimidate.
Poison Immunity replaced with Disease Immunity (Poisons are worse,but also easier to get immunity from other sources).
Turn Undead at level 12. Instead of Plant forms.
+4 to saves vs. Death & Level Drain. Instead of Thousand Faces at 13
Fast Healing 1 at level 16. Instead of Elemental Shape. Improves to FH 3 at 20.
Ability Fast Healing 1 at Level 17. Improves to AFH 2 at 20.

Meh.

I just liked the fact that I had Abberation Wild Shape, ASU, and was otherwise a very good summoner (Rashemi + Elemental Sumoning Specialist + Augment Summons + Summon Elemental)... in Will o' Wisp form. 
With all of the Heart of and Primal Spells up and at'em.

Besides, those two Balors were totally owning the party until I hit them with Blinding Spittle and started disabling one with Skunk Scent, it failed its save against the last one I'd prepped too. The DM was pissed when he found out what the spell levels were.

[ShadowViper]

I'm still not sure about that, since it still gives you something for nothing. At least the Grey Elves takes a penalty (to a dump stat) for the boost. Fire Elves penalty is a bit less of a dump stat, but still a dump stat, though you also take a -2 against water magic (which is more to offset the resist 5 to fire).

Alot less than some of the +0 LA templates out there. All I'm really asking is just the extra +2 to Int from the Pathfinder Elf.

My favorite Druid was a Silverbrow Human. With the bonus' from Dragonblood subtype on some of her self-buffs (Primal spell-chain comes to mind).
Trolling Thay with Orglash Storm Elementals. Good times.

Still haven't really decided on anything but pretty sure it'll either be an Elven Sniper or and Elven Generalist Wizard at this point.

[Jackinthegreen]

Does Talented work on a Wilder's Wild Surge?

Talented prevents you from taking the damage dealt by Overchannel.
Wild Surge cannot be used with Overchannel.
Wild Surge deals no damage to be prevent.

I'm not sure what the interaction is that you're asking about.

It's by no means RAW or RAI, but one change to Talented made to help Wilders is allowing it to negate the chance of Psychic Enervation on lower level powers since the effects of both Overchannel and Wild Surge are similar.  Given that you've added extra powers though, I think I'll pass on that thought if I do decide to go Wilder.

That has me thinking about a paladin/wilder with access to Favor of the Martyr at a reasonable level.  Just loses PP instead of being dazed as well.

As far as warlocks and DFAs go, the DFA gets 4 less (or 2/3 as many) invocations than a warlock.  However, the DFA gets additional breath effects at levels 2, 5, 10, 12, 15, and 20th levels which means they're effectively ahead by 2 because the warlock has to spend an invocation to change his Eldritch Blast since Blast Shapes/Essences are invocations.

[ariasderros]

@ Jack

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It's by no means RAW or RAI, but one change to Talented made to help Wilders is allowing it to negate the chance of Psychic Enervation on lower level powers since the effects of both Overchannel and Wild Surge are similar.  Given that you've added extra powers though, I think I'll pass on that thought if I do decide to go Wilder.

Contrariwise, Wild Surge is better than Overchannel. It progresses it's benefit more quickly (already +2 at level 3), and also going further (double the benefit at L20). It also has a rider effect of the euphoria. Oh, and let us not forget the free augmentation, which Overchannel does not let you have.
Then again, the loss of both the power points and a round of action can be a bit much for most uses.
I'd think about a custom feat (Controlled Surge?) that would let you ignore the PP loss if using Surge on powers with a level of 2 less than you can manifest, and / or the ability to ignore the Daze if you are using Surge to 1/2 it's maximum effect or less. So a level 6 Wilder could use Surge to gain +1 ML w/o worrying about being Dazed, and could Manifest level 1 powers w/o worrying about PP loss, and thus could, Surge all of her uses of level one powers by one ML and only risk not gaining euphoria.

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As far as warlocks and DFAs go, the DFA gets 4 less (or 2/3 as many) invocations than a warlock.  However, the DFA gets additional breath effects at levels 2, 5, 10, 12, 15, and 20th levels which means they're effectively ahead by 2 because the warlock has to spend an invocation to change his Eldritch Blast since Blast Shapes/Essences are invocations.

When I re-viewed it yesterday, I was only really looking up to the point that I'd played them. The Breath Effects are "traded" for Invocations at levels 2, 5, 10, 15, and 20, but the level 12 one is free, and the DFA slips in an extra Invocation at certain levels (even at level 3 they're ahead). If I only looked at that, it would seem like Extra Invocation as a bonus feat at 6 & 12 would balance them.
But it doesn't. My DFA could CC / BFC great; Warlock, not really. DFA gets a better skill list, more skill points, better HD, and good Fort; the Warlock gets... better BAB. Oh, and SAD v. MAD

So the assertion I made (in haste) yesterday about the classes being matched, should really have just been met with:

Thusly, I stole the second sentence of SirPercivals re-write from H.A. and added it onto my own. Which now means mine is the exact same as his.

Also, you get 1 blast shape or eldritch essence every 3rd level (3,6,9,etc).  EB still counts as an SLA for feat purposes (e.g., Quicken SLA).

@ SV

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Alot less than some of the +0 LA templates out there.

I disagree. All of the other 0 LA variants of races, and even + 0 templates have some sort of trade inherent to them. It isn't always balanced (I do not think, Strongheart, Silverbrow, or Azurin are fair trades) but there is always a trade. Vampire Lord not withstanding anyway, but that's on shaky ground.

The strait PF Elf is much more powerful than Suli or Nagaji. Or any of the other races I looked at actually. PF, seems to be real victims of "Our elves are better than your elves".

How about I meet you halfway though, and propose a counter-balance.
Since you seem averse to either Gray or Fire Elves trade-offs how about "partial declination" (as per the alternate racial features). Lose immunity to sleep, and have to sleep for 8 instead of the Reverie for 4 hours.
If you actually full on take the Declining Elf ARF, then your Int boost becomes free. This would favor the Sniper somewhat.

[phaedrusxy]

Wild Surge/Psychic Enervation is terrible mechanically, as the higher level you are, the worse the penalty from it is, because the loss of power points depends on your Wilder level, not how much of a surge you're using. It's somewhat similar to the houserule about having people drop their weapons on natural 1s. It penalizes high level/more skilled (i.e. with more attacks) characters much more than lower ones.

I don't really see the point of Psychic Enervation at all in fact, as the wilder is already terribly crippled just due to:
1) Being a level behind psions in power aquisition
2) having a pitifully small number of powers known
and 3) not having access to discipline specific powers.

Throwing in a penalty as terrible as being dazed for a full round on top of losing power points for even using your main class feature is just adding insult to injury. Really, what a stupid, ill-conceived class. I can't imagine letting someone play it as-is as a DM, unless it was in some kind of low-tier campaign where the PCs intentionally chose gimpy classes.

[McPoyo]

I'd still play a fighter instead.

[Jackinthegreen]

Wild Surge/Psychic Enervation is terrible mechanically, as the higher level you are, the worse the penalty from it is, because the loss of power points depends on your Wilder level, not how much of a surge you're using. It's somewhat similar to the houserule about having people drop their weapons on natural 1s. It penalizes high level/more skilled (i.e. with more attacks) characters much more than lower ones.

I don't really see the point of Psychic Enervation at all in fact, as the wilder is already terribly crippled just due to:
1) Being a level behind psions in power aquisition
2) having a pitifully small number of powers known
and 3) not having access to discipline specific powers.

Throwing in a penalty as terrible as being dazed for a full round on top of losing power points for even using your main class feature is just adding insult to injury. Really, what a stupid, ill-conceived class. I can't imagine letting someone play it as-is as a DM, unless it was in some kind of low-tier campaign where the PCs intentionally chose gimpy classes.

2) is fixed here with an extra power per level.  1) and 3) are annoying, but 3) can be worked with if the player chooses the Shifter sub level to get powers from Psychometobolism.  I really wish I knew why they decided t make the charisma-based casters a spell level behind.  Is charisma really that much more powerful as a stat than int or wis?   

Makes me wonder if anyone has done a rewrite of it here on the boards...  If not I might get to it since the changes aren't that huge overall.

Thanks to the warlock changes though, it seems I might be going for pure warlock for a while, though I definitely need to look at the invocations to see if anything like BFC can be squared up.  Maybe a feat or essence called Dark Entanglement for them is needed.

I'm thinking of getting Imperious Command at 6th and taking Beguiling Influence as one of my invocations, but I know I need to look at things more.

[sirpercival]

There are some homebrew invokers out there that arias might let you pillage... Dralnu's one that I can't remember the name of, Nullblade & Thaumurai, Holomancer, Garryl's invoking Paladin/Ranger/Soulknife.

Also I have a homebrew PrC for Wilder/Totemists called the Primal Soul.

[phaedrusxy]

I'm sure I've seen wilder rewrites on this board, but I don't have a link. You could probably find them by digging around in the homebrew index.

[Garryl]

There are some homebrew invokers out there that arias might let you pillage... Dralnu's one that I can't remember the name of, Nullblade & Thaumurai, Holomancer, Garryl's invoking Paladin/Ranger/Soulknife.

You mean Dralnu's Indigo Trickster?
Also, I never did an invoking Ranger, just Paladin and Soulknife. Though now that you mention it...

[ShadowViper]

@ SV

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Alot less than some of the +0 LA templates out there.

I disagree. All of the other 0 LA variants of races, and even + 0 templates have some sort of trade inherent to them. It isn't always balanced (I do not think, Strongheart, Silverbrow, or Azurin are fair trades) but there is always a trade. Vampire Lord not withstanding anyway, but that's on shaky ground.

The strait PF Elf is much more powerful than Suli or Nagaji. Or any of the other races I looked at actually. PF, seems to be real victims of "Our elves are better than your elves".

How about I meet you halfway though, and propose a counter-balance.
Since you seem averse to either Gray or Fire Elves trade-offs how about "partial declination" (as per the alternate racial features). Lose immunity to sleep, and have to sleep for 8 instead of the Reverie for 4 hours.
If you actually full on take the Declining Elf ARF, then your Int boost becomes free. This would favor the Sniper somewhat.

The thing is though that I don't want a straight Pathfinder Elf. I want a regular straight 3.5 elf with +2 Dex, -2 Con and +2 Int.

[ariasderros]

@SV
Let me try this again, w/o the unintended red herring, and emphasis added.

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@ SV

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Alot less than some of the +0 LA templates out there.

I disagree. All of the other 0 LA variants of races, and even + 0 templates have some sort of trade inherent to them. It isn't always balanced (I do not think, Strongheart, Silverbrow, or Azurin are fair trades) but there is always a trade. Vampire Lord not withstanding anyway, but that's on shaky ground.

How about I meet you halfway though, and propose a counter-balance.
Since you seem averse to either Gray or Fire Elves trade-offs how about "partial declination" (as per the alternate racial features). Lose immunity to sleep, and have to sleep for 8 instead of the Reverie for 4 hours.
If you actually full on take the Declining Elf ARF, then your Int boost becomes free. This would favor the Sniper somewhat.

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I'm still not sure about that, since it still gives you something for nothing. At least the Grey Elves takes a penalty (to a dump stat) for the boost. Fire Elves penalty is a bit less of a dump stat, but still a dump stat, though you also take a -2 against water magic (which is more to offset the resist 5 to fire).

Alot less than some of the +0 LA templates out there. All I'm really asking is just the extra +2 to Int from the Pathfinder Elf.

No. You are asking to get something for nothing. I have not asked for you to make a fair trade, or take a meaningful penalty. Just that you make some form of trade.

Is charisma really that much more powerful as a stat than int or wis?

• It is the second easiest stat to boost, next to Str.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Saves, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Attack, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Damage, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to AC, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Ability Checks (Marshal, mostly), multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to so, so much.

So yes, yes it is more powerful.

@ Surge conversation.
Bestow. Power.
Free. Augmentation.
Daze is irrelevant out-of-battle.

Wild Surge/Psychic Enervation is terrible mechanically, as the higher level you are, the worse the penalty from it is, because the loss of power points depends on your Wilder level, not how much of a surge you're using. It's somewhat similar to the houserule about having people drop their weapons on natural 1s. It penalizes high level/more skilled (i.e. with more attacks) characters much more than lower ones.

I agree with all of this to a point, but then I look at what I wrote for a suggested HB feat. It makes it make sense to me. Then again, I play Imperial Psykers, so I'm used to being raped by my own psychic power.
And it is still one hell of a boost if used correctly. It would not be if it cost you PP to augment, but the free augmentation thing makes up for it possibly costing you PP on a chance roll. Also, the Psychic Enervation kicks in after the power takes effect.

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Which makes me think of a Wilder with Extra Power (Astral Construct), who knows Bestow Power. Take this guy at level 7. He can Surge for +3, then pay 6 PP for a AC off the level 5 list two levels before a Shaper can. Even if said Shaper had Overchannel.
He gets hit by the Enervation, he doesn't care, his new buddy auto-attacks despite the master being Dazed, PP loss? He can auto-augment Bestow Power by +3 each time after the battle. Torc of Power Preservation, Earth Power, and Midnight Augmentation. Now he Brings his Bestow Power up to its 9PP effect of granting 6PP, for a cost of 2PP.
Granted, this is a bit higher Op than most tables, but Ego Whip, Energy Stun, and the list of powers that Surge is worth it on would keep going.

For what it's worth, I should mention, the Houserule for Wilder is an additional power known gained at each level. That means: at level 1, you know 2 powers; at level 2, you know 4 powers; at level 3, you know 5 powers; et cetera.

[Jackinthegreen]

Is charisma really that much more powerful as a stat than int or wis?

• It is the second easiest stat to boost, next to Str.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Saves, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Attack, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Damage, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to AC, multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to Ability Checks (Marshal, mostly), multiple times.
• It is the easiest stat to get to so, so much.

So yes, yes it is more powerful.

At the moment it is considering all the splatbooks, but at the time the sorcerer and wilder were created?  Not quite as much.  It's more like a bunch of people published stuff to do with it and didn't check each other, so we're left with a clusterfuck of odd rules that can really add up.  I suppose "a clusterfuck of odd rules that can really add up" describes 3.X quite nicely actually.


And now for something totally different:
The setting being as it is with the limits on magical items, I'm inclined to go Warlock, especially with access to the Magic Insight DFA invocation to identify items quickly (normally Identify is 1 hour while MI is 6 seconds) and cheaply (and the spell also costs a pearl worth 100g while the invocation is "free") if no one else is able to.  One problem with that of course is overlapping features since the warlock already gets Detect Magic at will.  Perhaps change it to Read Magic at will for the Warlock?

Essentially what I'd like as a base is 1 utility option like Magic Insight, 1 decent debuffing option like entangling, and 1 solid combat/damage option.  If we have some fear stacking options then Frightful Blast might work for debuffing, although Sickening Blast might be more useful even with the fort saves being better than will on average.  Summon Swarm would be more useful if the monsters we were going against weren't so powerful...  CR 8 is standard, right?  Many could make a fort save of 11 or 12 on a 2.

[ariasderros]

At the moment it is considering all the splatbooks, but at the time the sorcerer and wilder were created?  Not quite as much.  It's more like a bunch of people published stuff to do with it and didn't check each other, so we're left with a clusterfuck of odd rules that can really add up.  I suppose "a clusterfuck of odd rules that can really add up" describes 3.X quite nicely actually.

And that's going into my quotebook. Also, see all other games that get enough expansion books.

And now for something totally different:
Perhaps change it to Read Magic at will for the Warlock?

Detect Magic does a lot more than identify items that are in your hand.
60ft range special-sense.

Plus, I'm kind of blanking as to what good Read Magic would do you. Does it do anything that an Arcana roll can't do?

Essentially what I'd like as a base is 1 utility option like Magic Insight, 1 decent debuffing option like entangling, and 1 solid combat/damage option.  If we have some fear stacking options then Frightful Blast might work for debuffing, although Sickening Blast might be more useful even with the fort saves being better than will on average.  Summon Swarm would be more useful if the monsters we were going against weren't so powerful...  CR 8 is standard, right?  Many could make a fort save of 11 or 12 on a 2.

Since there was only one question there: Right.
I will agree with Sickening though. More penalties from different sources types, IMO. Plus the blasts scale better than Swarm.

[Jackinthegreen]

At the moment it is considering all the splatbooks, but at the time the sorcerer and wilder were created?  Not quite as much.  It's more like a bunch of people published stuff to do with it and didn't check each other, so we're left with a clusterfuck of odd rules that can really add up.  I suppose "a clusterfuck of odd rules that can really add up" describes 3.X quite nicely actually.

And that's going into my quotebook. Also, see all other games that get enough expansion books.

And now for something totally different:
Perhaps change it to Read Magic at will for the Warlock?

Detect Magic does a lot more than identify items that are in your hand.
60ft range special-sense.

Plus, I'm kind of blanking as to what good Read Magic would do you. Does it do anything that an Arcana roll can't do?

Essentially what I'd like as a base is 1 utility option like Magic Insight, 1 decent debuffing option like entangling, and 1 solid combat/damage option.  If we have some fear stacking options then Frightful Blast might work for debuffing, although Sickening Blast might be more useful even with the fort saves being better than will on average.  Summon Swarm would be more useful if the monsters we were going against weren't so powerful...  CR 8 is standard, right?  Many could make a fort save of 11 or 12 on a 2.

Since there was only one question there: Right.
I will agree with Sickening though. More penalties from different sources types, IMO. Plus the blasts scale better than Swarm.

Glad I could offer a quote worthy of copying.

Like I said though, since a Warlock already has at will Detect Magic, changing Magic Insight to be Read Magic for them might be a better alternative.  As for what Read Magic can do: Explosive Runes comes to mind as being handy to avoid.  Spellcraft specifically calls out using Read Magic to identify certain things like Glyph of Warding.  In some cases it obviates the need for a Spellcraft check altogether such as looking at a scroll.

And yeah, since the swarms don't scale at all and I won't be abusing Dark Speech on them for hive minds I think I'll go with Sickening over Summon Swarm.  Question regarding that though: I see nothing to indicate whether nauseated is technically a worse form of distress than sickened in the rulebooks, nor are there stacking rules like with fear as far as I can see.  Do you interpret that as an oversight and that a sickened creature affected by a different condition that caused sickened would go to nauseated instead?

Just as a heads-up since I'm using Primordial Giant, the spell-like ability gained from it is technically based on racial HD but since the character won't have that but does have +1 CL on all SLAs I'm just going to have the ability stay at CL1.  Going with Invisibility for fairly obvious reasons.

[ShadowViper]

@SV
Let me try this again, w/o the unintended red herring, and emphasis added.

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@ SV

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Alot less than some of the +0 LA templates out there.

I disagree. All of the other 0 LA variants of races, and even + 0 templates have some sort of trade inherent to them. It isn't always balanced (I do not think, Strongheart, Silverbrow, or Azurin are fair trades) but there is always a trade. Vampire Lord not withstanding anyway, but that's on shaky ground.

How about I meet you halfway though, and propose a counter-balance.
Since you seem averse to either Gray or Fire Elves trade-offs how about "partial declination" (as per the alternate racial features). Lose immunity to sleep, and have to sleep for 8 instead of the Reverie for 4 hours.
If you actually full on take the Declining Elf ARF, then your Int boost becomes free. This would favor the Sniper somewhat.

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I'm still not sure about that, since it still gives you something for nothing. At least the Grey Elves takes a penalty (to a dump stat) for the boost. Fire Elves penalty is a bit less of a dump stat, but still a dump stat, though you also take a -2 against water magic (which is more to offset the resist 5 to fire).

Alot less than some of the +0 LA templates out there. All I'm really asking is just the extra +2 to Int from the Pathfinder Elf.

No. You are asking to get something for nothing. I have not asked for you to make a fair trade, or take a meaningful penalty. Just that you make some form of trade.

Is a +2 INT really that big of a deal?

The benefits would roughly be thus.

1) As an Elven Sniper(as far as I've read so far) a +2 INT would give me about 6 extra skills points at level 3(which pretty much translates to one extra maxed skill), and a +1 bonus to INT based skills.

2) Now as a Elven wizard the most benefits are given. Skills bonuses as above along with a possible bonus spell slot and +1 to DCs.

I don't see why the need to overly complicate things. If it's really that much of a problem I can just choose a Sun Elf for the wizard and a standard Elf(or Moon Elf) for the Sniper. Not a really a big deal.

[ariasderros]

Like I said though, since a Warlock already has at will Detect Magic, changing Magic Insight to be Read Magic for them might be a better alternative.  As for what Read Magic can do: Explosive Runes comes to mind as being handy to avoid.  Spellcraft specifically calls out using Read Magic to identify certain things like Glyph of Warding.  In some cases it obviates the need for a Spellcraft check altogether such as looking at a scroll.

Ah, there was a misunderstanding on my part. When you said "change it to Read Magic", I thought the "it" was referring to your class ability of Detect, not the Invocation ability to Detect.
I actually forgot that MI granted detect.
Call the invocation something else, say you researched it yourself, and YGTG.

And yeah, since the swarms don't scale at all and I won't be abusing Dark Speech on them for hive minds I think I'll go with Sickening over Summon Swarm.  Question regarding that though: I see nothing to indicate whether nauseated is technically a worse form of distress than sickened in the rulebooks, nor are there stacking rules like with fear as far as I can see.  Do you interpret that as an oversight and that a sickened creature affected by a different condition that caused sickened would go to nauseated instead?

Well, if we pretend you didn't point out that wasn't the case, then yes. Since I can think of 2-3 things off the top of my head that cause nauseated to be sickened or vice versa in that vein anyway, that's how I thought it worked always.
BoVD Dark Speech and Hivemind, vs. Hive Mind. That is a trick that wouldn't work even if you did try it.

Just as a heads-up since I'm using Primordial Giant, the spell-like ability gained from it is technically based on racial HD but since the character won't have that but does have +1 CL on all SLAs I'm just going to have the ability stay at CL1.  Going with Invisibility for fairly obvious reasons.

CL1 is how I've done it in the past too.

I don't see why the need to overly complicate things. If it's really that much of a problem I can just choose a Sun Elf for the wizard and a standard Elf(or Moon Elf) for the Sniper. Not a really a big deal.

It isn't complicated. Get something for nothing =/= happen. Get something for something that is not a fair trade, can happen.
e.g. earth suli; fire gnome; changes to invocations. All of these were asking for a trade. It is a trade that favors the one asking, but is still a trade. Magic-blooded, Primordial-Half-Giant, Unseelie, unfair trades, but still trades.

[ShadowViper]

Just seems like a bit of a hassle, no biggy. I understand where you're coming from. Will just choose one of the two elves based on which class I decide on.

How dire is the need for a divine caster? Am I cool going ahead with either a sniper or a wizard?

[ariasderros]

How dire is the need for a divine caster?

Not.

Am I cool going ahead with either a sniper or a wizard?

I Fire in the Sky has fixed the only things I had any issues with this past week on the Sniper. 
Wizard is always a plus. 

That's my 2cp as DM, anyone else?

[McPoyo]

I agree. "Need" of divine is pretty low, imo.