Author Topic: Messed up understanding of character building basics  (Read 3311 times)

Offline Mandulis

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Messed up understanding of character building basics
« on: October 21, 2012, 01:07:52 PM »
Hello everyone,

since my current character (normal wizard of low level) will probably die soon as he gets focussed a lot i am already planning for the next character. Since two players in the group are not really using the potential of their paladin and dragon shaman but rather go charge/smash-wise into fights i thought i could build a versatile tank. So whatever gets thrown at the group and downs the others, my guy stays standing and heals the party again or smacks the monster.

I wanted to go for a martial but versatile cleric, being rather tanky and able to fight in meelee while still cast a lot of spells. I tried to get a lot of bonuses in without completely relying on spells so i can save some work and time at the gaming table. All books are ok, except ToB or very campaign -specific stuff. No psionics, flaws or bad characters (Paladin in the group). Current group level is 7, equipment options are slightly limited.

Here is the build :
(click to show/hide)

As you can see, there are some levels missing. Contemplative seems to fit well, prestige paladin 3 would make him immune to fear, but there are probably other good options. The saves are ok with divine grace, the casting is alright as well as the armor. Immunities are above average, too. Evasion in all armour is in. Still i have a feeling that the guys is not tanky enough. SR is still missing as well as something like damage reduction , resistances and good or permanent healing capabilities. Also the ordained champion's smite, he devotion feats and the persisting all need turn undead attempts. Serenity uses Wis for that but i still need more somehow. Getting the fire domain through contemplative and extra turning was an idea, but i am not sure if that works.

I am also not sure if the concept makes sense. Should i maybe just go Cleric 20 and am already better than any more meelee focussed builds ? Is trying to be tanky as a cleric a bad idea ? I like versatile chars a lot but of course i might be wanting too much. And since i am not very experienced with characters above level 14 ( we rarely crossed that line) i am not sure if all the improvements i tried to get into the build are actually worth it or if any basic arcane caster just blasts me away with his first spell. Some general insight from the more experienced people would be appreciated ; either on how to improve the build or how to get the concept done properly.

Cheers,
Mandulis
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 08:55:14 AM by Mandulis »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Cleric blocking it with the chest, worth it?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2012, 03:15:31 PM »
Going frontliner with a Cleric 20 or Druid 20, is very good.
And certainly better than the charge/smash guys.
Cleric Archer is another option, picking shots through your party.
Can't really go wrong with any of these.
Can always pick a few more healing spells out of (hidden) sympathy ...  ;)


I'm curious as to why your current Wizard is having so much trouble?
Rogue 1 / Wizard X ... could disguise as just a Rogue.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 03:17:08 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Mandulis

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Cleric blocking it with the chest, worth it?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 03:48:17 PM »
I tried to make a supporting wizard instead of a blaster. Spells like web and glitterdust are fun and still powerful. This easily gets my the attention of the evil dudes and certainly the buffers are not really buffing (the two just seem to be internally bound on one playing style, i try to show them other ways). And sometimes a wizard is just a wizard and gets shot or smashed. :)

Offline Empirate

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
  • I'm not as new as my post count suggests!
    • View Profile
Re: Cleric blocking it with the chest, worth it?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2012, 03:52:16 AM »
"Lumi Cloistered Cleric 4, Church Inquisitor 1, Divine Oracle 2, Ordained Champion 3, Prestige Paladin 2, Contemplative 2"

This is the part that seems problematic to me, given your goals. It doesn't look particularly tank-y to me. In fact, quite the opposite: lacks HP, lacks Fort save, only has light armor proficiency, very poor BAB when unbuffed... All your more tank-y stuff only comes online very late. I'd seriously consider a more frontloaded build with less LA and racial HD, which are never good in a caster build. Or just going a completely different route for tanking (like Mineral Warrior Dwarf Crusader 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/whatever 5 [after LA buyoff]; unfortunately ToB is out!), which seems the simpler alternative all around.

At the level you're entering play (level 7), you're a Lumi Cloistered Cleric 3. Your first LA buyoff will only occur after three more levels! Your caster level is 3, you're casting 2nd level spells, your HP are 1d8+2d6+8+(4xCon mod) (given a Con of 18 or so, you're looking at 36 HP at level 7...), and your BAB is +3. This is exceeding horrible and transcends into the monstrously incompetent. Before you're ever going to become a tank, you're going to die to a wandering monster.

Offline Mandulis

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Cleric blocking it with the chest, worth it?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 08:53:59 AM »
Alright, I see I am very far off track. Maybe I got the basics of the game wrong. Is it actually viable to have a character build focussing more on survivability or can any caster just do that anyway (for example by using divination to get data on the coming encounters and buffing himself up)? I know casters usually beat non-casters easily, so I opted to get as much caster level into the build as possible. Seems, full spell progression is the way to go.  Do you recommend making a cleric that has some more meelee abilities through feats and class features or does a high level cleric just have a spell for all of these and laughs at the other character?

If these questions seem to noobish or monstrously incompetent feel free to just close the thread.

Offline Rebel7284

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 706
    • View Profile
Re: Cleric blocking it with the chest, worth it?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 09:15:27 AM »
Alright, I see I am very far off track. Maybe I got the basics of the game wrong. Is it actually viable to have a character build focussing more on survivability or can any caster just do that anyway (for example by using divination to get data on the coming encounters and buffing himself up)? I know casters usually beat non-casters easily, so I opted to get as much caster level into the build as possible. Seems, full spell progression is the way to go.  Do you recommend making a cleric that has some more meelee abilities through feats and class features or does a high level cleric just have a spell for all of these and laughs at the other character?

If these questions seem to noobish or monstrously incompetent feel free to just close the thread.

You are certainly on the right track with the build itself, however, your character's race is in question.  You do have to pay the level adjustment for lumi, correct?  Paying it costs you a lot of levels in the early and mid game.  Also, you should take Divine Metamagic earlier.

Offline ariasderros

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2507
  • PM me what you're giving Kudos for please.
    • View Profile
Re: Cleric blocking it with the chest, worth it?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 09:27:51 AM »
Alright, I see I am very far off track. Maybe I got the basics of the game wrong. Is it actually viable to have a character build focussing more on survivability or can any caster just do that anyway (for example by using divination to get data on the coming encounters and buffing himself up)? I know casters usually beat non-casters easily, so I opted to get as much caster level into the build as possible. Seems, full spell progression is the way to go.  Do you recommend making a cleric that has some more meelee abilities through feats and class features or does a high level cleric just have a spell for all of these and laughs at the other character?

If these questions seem to noobish or monstrously incompetent feel free to just close the thread.

Given the information, your question could be: trolling; noobish; or newbish.
Given the presentation, your question is most definitely newbish. There is nothing wrong with that. This game has a lot of ivory tower traps, and it sounds like you're in unfamiliar territory. Not knowing what the available paths, or the present snares, are when you're in a new area is not a crime.

Although, lesson #1: use the available resources. In this case, the Handbooks are your friends, and the Handbook Index makes it easy to find things like The Cleric Handbook.
Which does mention some of the spells that let you own melee, starting with Righteous Might and Divine Power.
My new Sig
Hi, Welcome

Offline Mandulis

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Messed up understanding of character building basics
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 09:40:39 AM »
Actually I read through that handbook. Probably I arranged the pieces in the wrong way. Righteous Might, Dinve Power and such buffs are known, I just thought they were good but at some point not that good anymore by themselves (monsters getting larger and stronger with higher levels or magic becomming more dominant). Upgrading the meelee abilities with smiting and some fighter feats looked good to me.
I guess I'm gonna read that handbook again.  :)

Offline Empirate

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
  • I'm not as new as my post count suggests!
    • View Profile
Re: Messed up understanding of character building basics
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 10:16:39 AM »
First off, I wasn't trying to bash you. The "monstrously incompetent" referred to the build you presented, as a 7th level tank, not to yourself!

That said, the problem with your build is that while it'll be quite alright at the later levels, right now is when you need to survive 13.67 level-appropriate encounters to see next level. 2nd level spells, BAB +3, light armor, and 30-something HP are not going to cut it there.
Now clerics can be surprisingly effective tanks. But they become so by using their spellcasting ability along with divine/devotion feats, on top of a strong chassis (OK HP, BAB, good saves, good armor prof etc.). Taking Lumi as a race is problematic here: the Lumi's upsides don't warrant its downsides in a full caster build, unless you're starting at very high levels.

You need all the tools at your disposal to be able to do your tanking job, and you need them now. A tank will, by definition, be in the thick of things, so waiting for the good stuff to happen at later levels is not a good survival strategy. Divine Power, for instance, is a must-have if you're going to melee a lot - you won't be able to keep up with the Big Stupid Fighter otherwise. You can have Divine Power at 7th level, but not if you take a level adjusted race.
Similarly, your best buffs will need to be either kept up all day (Divine Metamagic:Persist), or be available at a moment's notice (Divine Metamagic: Quicken). Otherwise you lose precious rounds buffing while your teammates are getting hacked up. However, a Lumi Cloistered Cleric 3 has only two open feats (your sample build includes two feats at level 1, which is likely an error), which all but precludes DMM. I guess you can take the Planning Domain and pull off DMM (Persist), but now you don't even have Power Attack yet, and possibly not enough turning attempts anyway.

So if your party needs a tank now, consider a regular Human (Lesser Aasimar is a good alternative if it's allowed) Cleric 7: you'll have 4th level spells (Divine Power is online, but you also get Freedom of Movement should you need it, Dispel Magic to take the fight out of Mr. BigBadEvilAndPrebuffedGuy etc.), you'll have 6d8 + 7xCon + 8 HP (assuming Con 14, that's 49 HP), BAB +5 unbuffed, and you'll have the best heavy armor available (and at this level that still counts for something). You also have two more open feats to spend on useful stuff like Power Attack and Extra Turning, making your DMM'd self buffs that much better.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 10:19:57 AM by Empirate »

Offline ariasderros

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2507
  • PM me what you're giving Kudos for please.
    • View Profile
Re: Messed up understanding of character building basics
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 10:29:03 AM »
+1
As said there, but I would see about Strongheart Halfling. The -2 Str is mitigated on the attack roll by the +1 size to hit, but the +2 Dex coupled with the size bonus is a +1 to Initiative as well as a +2 to AC.

If you become really badass with a strongheart halfling in melee, green body paint is optional.
My new Sig
Hi, Welcome

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Messed up understanding of character building basics
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 10:39:24 AM »
Might I suggest cloistered cleric 3/church inquisitor 4? Definitely start out with DMM: Persistent spell, if it is allowed. You definitely want to persist Divine Power. There are several choices for your other spells, but that one is basically a "must".

Don't pick a race with a LA more than 1, and even then only if LA buyoff is allowed (and see if you can start already having bought it off).
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Mandulis

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Messed up understanding of character building basics
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 01:18:54 PM »
Quote
First off, I wasn't trying to bash you. The "monstrously incompetent" referred to the build you presented, as a 7th level tank, not to yourself!

No offense taken. :)

I'll try to come up with a more sensefull build with full caster level. Probably it will be a rather standard solution (Cloistered Cleric, Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle, Contemplative). With persisting some stuff that should be manageable if enough turn attempts are available. But thanks for the insights so far.