New to 3.5, need help with a cleric build

[Rabk]

When I first made this character I was kinda thrown in with a group and had to come up with something fast. All I knew at the time was that clerics healed people. I've since been reading up on things and learned where I went wrong. The DM is being very gracious and letting me rebuild my character to take advantage of my new knowledge. I neither want to abuse this privilege nor overshadow the rest of the party, so I don't want to be too overpowered.

At 8th level, the DM is allowing me to take the Sacred Exorcist PrC from the 3.0 book Defenders of the Faith (yes, I know there's an updated version in Complete Divine but the old one's better and he's letting me use it, so...). The campaign is very short on EXP; it takes a long time to level up. The group I'm in is also mostly new players, and I expect most of them won't take any PrC's at all, so I'd rather not take the -20% EXP hit and fall behind by branching out (at least until I've maxed out Sacred Exorcist). The main reason I'm choosing that PrC (stat block included below) is because it gives 12 extra turn attempts to fuel my DMM(Persist). It's very hard to get magic items in this homebrew world and I seriously doubt I will be able to find nightsticks (and I doubt I'd be allowed to stack them even if I did). Sacred Exorcist also gives me full CL and turn attempt progression.

The party is composed of two elf roguish types, a gnome druid, a human barbarian, a human sorcerer, and myself:

Human Cloistered Cleric level 6
Domains: Planning, Trickery, Knowledge (Devotion)
Feats: Extend Spell (from Planning domain), Improved Initiative, Extra Turning x2 (both from flaws), Persistent Spell, DMM(Persist), Exalted Turning
Skills: Maxed out concentration, spellcraft, and use magic device, most of the rest gone into various knowledge() skills to make better use of Knowledge Devotion
Skill Trick: Collector of Stories (also to fuel Knowledge Devotion)
Stats:18 STR, 12 DEX, 18 CON, 14 INT, 16 CHA, 18 WIS (yes, I know they're ridiculous- the homebrew campaign also has a "comeliness" score that I dumped down to 4 by having a dire tiger maul me when I was young.  )
Equipment: +1 heavy mace, full plate, buckler (I can't use anything heavier because the tiger tore up my arm too  )

Since the barbarian and I are the only two in heavy armor, I'm at least partly relegated to the melee/meatshield role. In addition to that I would like to be a primary buffer so I can be seen to be helping out the party as much as possible and not just being ridiculously overpowered myself. The DMM(Persist) of course makes it much easier for me to fill both roles simultaneously.

So my questions are thus:

• What are some of the better spells for me to persist? I'm especially interested in group buffs and other party-helping material.
• Is my feat selection good so far? (Remember, the DM will let me retroactively change them.)
• Is it worth it for me to take the craft rod feat at 9th level just for one nightstick? Are there any other good rods I can make (either for myself or the party)?
• What other feats should I pick up as I progress in levels?
• What equipment should I pick up? (Cheaper is better- GP is even harder to come by than XP in this world. Also, ignore most of the highly rare or overpowered stuff that I can't craft myself- the DM won't let it happen.)
• What are the good things I can do with PAO and time stop? I've seen them widely praised (and took the Trickery domain for them), but I'm not sure yet how they'll work in practice.
• Is there anything useful I can do with the Exorcism prestige domain? Is there a way to swap it out for something better?
• I assume I should stop Sacred Exorcist at 9th level, when I get my last extra turn attempts. I would then be at ECL 16. Where should I go from there? Once I'm that high I expect taking a third class and losing the 20% EXP won't hurt me so much.
• The Sacred Exorcist class skills incldue "Scry (Int, exclusive skill)." What do I do with that?
  
• What else am I forgetting?

Thank you guys so much for helping me with this. I've already learned a ton from these boards and appreciate all the advice you can give.

~Rabk

(click to show/hide)

The Sacred Exorcist (Defenders of the Faith, p. 68)

Prereqs:
Alignment: Any good.
Knowledge (the planes): 7 ranks.
Knowledge (religion): 10 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast dismissal or dispel evil.

1st: Prestige domain: Exorcism, chosen foe +1, turn undead
2nd: Resist possession, detect evil
3rd: Extra Turning
4th: Dispel evil 1/week, chosen foe +2
5th: Consecrated presence (duplicates the consecrate spell in a 20' radius of the exorcist)
6th: Extra Turning
7th: Dispel evil 2/week
8th: Chosen foe +3
9th: Extra Turning
10th: Dispel evil 3/week

BAB: +0,1,2,3,3,4,5,6,6,7
Fort Save: +0,0,1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3
Ref Save: +0,0,1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3
Will Save: +2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6,7

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Spellcraft (Int)

[Edit: FYI, DM has declared all content from official sources acceptable.]
[Edit 2: Put in forgotten WIS score.]

[mthor]

I don't know if you have already looked at this but this is a wonderful place to start.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238.0
It has a list of most of the better cleric spells in 3.5 about half way down. There is of course other spells but these are stables of a cleric for a reason.
Also for the record you don't have a wisdom stat.... unless their is a weird homebrew then you need that to cast spells and for saves.

[phaedrusxy]

Can't you trade any domain out for a devotion feat, even trade one domain out for a different devotion? Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

The only rod which I remember being decent (other than nightsticks) is the Rod of Absorption, but those are expensive.

Power Attack is a decent feat, but usually used with two-handed weapons.

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Mass Lesser Vigor are good group buffs to persist. Mass Conviction is a nice one that doesn't need to be persisted, IIRC, and there are quite a few of those (Heroes' Feast, etc).

[Rebel7284]

1. You NEVER take XP penalties for having multiple prestige classes... that rule only applies to multiple base classes...  of course your DM could have changed that rule.  Double check with him/her?

2. The scry skill is not used in 3.5  ignore it?

3. Remember that you can combine extend and persist to make spells last 48 hours.  Rod of extend, lesser is pretty cheap too!

4. On similar builds also at level 6 in the past, here are some nice spells I have found:
- Vigor, Mass Lesser (SpC)
- Prayer (PHB, ask your DM exactly how this works when persisted)
- Channeled Divine Shield (PHB2) (DR10 only overcome by evil aligned weapons is crazy good at early levels)
- Ice Axe (SpC)  OR Darkfire (SpC) because touch attacks are good.
- Cloud of Knives (PHB2) (free attacks are good)
- Divine Retaliation (PHB2) (conditional free attacks are STILL good)

You need a rod of extend and 21 turning attempts to get ALL of those running, but it's pretty fun.  If you're short on turn attempts, I would skip the last two.

5. While not persistable, the spell Close Wounds is very useful as an immediate action way of healing so you can do other useful things during your turn.
 

[Mandulis]

I thought persisting with DMM needs 7 turn attempts per spell? For 6 spells that would be 42 attempts or am I missing something?

[phaedrusxy]

I thought persisting with DMM needs 7 turn attempts per spell? For 6 spells that would be 42 attempts or am I missing something?

DMM: Persist + Extend (via Metamagic Rod) = lasts 48 hours

So you cast 3 one day, and the other three the next.

[mthor]

Also I feel I should mention a personal favorite. If you take the feat fell draining you can apply it to persisted cloud of knives. Free attacks that give negative levels anyone?

[Rebel7284]

Also I feel I should mention a personal favorite. If you take the feat fell draining you can apply it to persisted cloud of knives. Free attacks that give negative levels anyone?

I would avoid this unless you want to handle the wight apocalypse.

Edit:
Total turn attempts you can get with those stats at this level:
3 Base
3 Charisma
8 Extra turning
2 Eagle's Splendor
4 Nightstick
2 Reliquary Holy Symbol
=
22 Total

So 1 left in the Nightstick for emergency turning of undead.

[trezac]

I think that cloistred cleric dont get heavy armor, check on that

[Rabk]

Thanks for all the quick replies- you guys are awesome.

Can't you trade any domain out for a devotion feat, even trade one domain out for a different devotion? Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

Can anyone confirm this? That would be awesome. (And what devotion would be best to take if it is true?)

Power Attack is a decent feat, but usually used with two-handed weapons.

When using power attack, how does one decide when to use it, and how much to take out of your attack role? It seems like it would be better to hit more often than hit harder.

1. You NEVER take XP penalties for having multiple prestige classes... that rule only applies to multiple base classes...  of course your DM could have changed that rule.  Double check with him/her?

I had no idea- thanks! What source should I look to to show my DM that rule? Does anyone have suggestions on another prestige class for me to take?

3. Remember that you can combine extend and persist to make spells last 48 hours.  Rod of extend, lesser is pretty cheap too!

Is this in the official FAQ or somewhere else? My DM will insist on seeing the ruling. Can I craft a rod of extend? Again, I doubt he'll let me find one in-game. (Also, what book is it in?)

I think that cloistred cleric dont get heavy armor, check on that

Ahh.. you're right. I just swapped to cloistered- i missed that part.

[linklord231]

Regarding multiclass XP penalties and Prestige classes:

Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

Regarding domains and devotion feats:

If you are a Cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain)... you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat... In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you spend only on a specific domain feat.

So basically, you can trade any domain for a matching domain feat, but you can't trade, say, the Trickery domain for the War Devotion. 

Regarding Power Attack: 
Power Attack is much less good if you just pick up any old weapon and start swinging.  PA is fantastic with certain tactics; namely using a Two Handed weapon and taking a few key feats like Leap Attack and Shock Trooper.  As with any optimization strategy, Power Attack works better the more resources (feats, etc) you invest into using it.  As a general rule, I like to power attack such that my second attack would hit on a 10. 

Regarding Persist + Extend:
The general rule is that effects stack in the order most favorable to the character.  This includes metamagic effects.  The exception to this rule is Empower + Maximize.

For a more tanky cleric, take a look at Ruby Knight Vindicator from Tome of Battle.  Lose a little bit of spellcasting (but retain 9th level spells) in return for a significant boost in your martial prowess.

[Rabk]

So basically, you can trade any domain for a matching domain feat, but you can't trade, say, the Trickery domain for the War Devotion. 

So exorcism becomes more or less worthless, I take it.

Regarding Persist + Extend:
The general rule is that effects stack in the order most favorable to the character.  This includes metamagic effects.  The exception to this rule is Empower + Maximize.

Source? That one my DM will defintely ask to see.

For a more tanky cleric, take a look at Ruby Knight Vindicator from Tome of Battle.  Lose a little bit of spellcasting (but retain 9th level spells) in return for a significant boost in your martial prowess.

That looks awesome. Unfortunately, my DM won't let me change my god to We Jas for roleplaying reasons. And to be perfectly honest, I think all the martial stances may be more than I can handle until I get more experience with 3.5.

[Rebel7284]

Regarding Persist + Extend:
The general rule is that effects stack in the order most favorable to the character.  This includes metamagic effects.  The exception to this rule is Empower + Maximize.

Source? That one my DM will defintely ask to see.

There are several examples in the main 3.5 FAQ that quote this

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

When do “add-on” effects such as poison occur? For
example, if an assassin delivers a death attack with a
weapon bearing wyvern poison, does the poison take effect
first, thus potentially reducing the target’s Fortitude save
against the death attack?
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate
an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or
special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s
most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect.
In this case, the assassin is the “controller” of both the
poison and the death attack, so he’d most likely choose for the
poison to take effect first, and then the death attack.


If a monster has resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage (such as fire), which effect is applied
first? And when does the saving throw come in?
Always roll a saving throw before applying any effects that
would increase or reduce the damage dealt. For example, if a
frost giant is struck by a fireball that would deal 35 points of
damage, it would roll its Reflex save, then apply its
vulnerability to fire after determining how much damage the
fireball would normally deal. If the save failed, the frost giant
would take 52 points of damage: 35 + one-half of 35 (17.5,
rounded down to 17). A successful save would mean the frost
giant suffered only 25 points of damage: one-half of 35
rounded down (17), plus one-half of 17 rounded down (8).
If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the
damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability
(which increases the damage taken by the creature). For
example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire
resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the
frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) –
10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5,
rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant
would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the
fireball, rounded down) – 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus
one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3).
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate
an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or
special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s
most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this
typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first,
before applying any effects that would increase damage.

Also, Practiced Spellcaster questions in that FAQ


Of course this is a GENERAL rule/guideline, and of course the DM always has the final say.

[Unbeliever]

Can't you trade any domain out for a devotion feat, even trade one domain out for a different devotion? Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

Can anyone confirm this? That would be awesome. (And what devotion would be best to take if it is true?)

Complete Champion page 53. 

Power Attack is a decent feat, but usually used with two-handed weapons.

When using power attack, how does one decide when to use it, and how much to take out of your attack role? It seems like it would be better to hit more often than hit harder.

It's a little bit of a balancing act.  However, I always just stat out a default Power Attack, usually something like -3 or -5 and write it on my character sheet.   I usually go with whatever leaves me with relatively round numbers. 

As a side note, don't stress too much.  Unless you're in a crazy high-OP game, which it doesn't sound like, I'd worry less about firepower and more about being able to play a fun, entertaining character smoothly (i.e., not spending 5 minutes in decision paralysis to figure out your turn).  I've been playing D&D for nigh on 20 years and I make heavy use of crib sheets and often sacrifice character "power" for ease of play.  A DMM(persist) Cleric is a total badass -- a flexible, powerful build -- so once you pick your feats and your spells don't sweat it too much.  And, given that you want to play a melee, meat shield, and buffer, you're pretty much on the right track. 


P.P.S.:  the Persist + Extend thing is pretty well-established.  I'd say to the DM that if he has an issue with it, it's really the power involved with DMM(persist) to begin with.  Also, given that your party doesn't sound really OP to begin with, it might be that he's concerned with you overshadowing them with 6+ persistent spells in a given day.  That would strike me as a reasonable concern, and perhaps you guys can just talk about what is a reasonable amount of persistent spells in a day.  Alternatively, you could look into Complete Champion's Devotion feats (Animal, Protection, and Law are all really good) if you're interested in an alternative to the true awesomesauce that is DMM(persist).

[Agnostic Paladin]

• What are some of the better spells for me to persist? I'm especially interested in group buffs and other party-helping material.

  You have enough turns to persist two spells per day. If you can get (or make) a lesser extending metamagic rod (DMG), that means you can have four persistent fourth level spells. I'd start with Mass Lesser Vigour and Chaneled Divine Shield; once you have the rod, add Mass Conviction and Prayer for now. Once you get access to fourth level spells, these all get replaced.

• Is my feat selection good so far? (Remember, the DM will let me retroactively change them.)

  You don't want Exalted Turning. You're never going to turn undead again as all your turn attempts are going to power your DMM, so there's no reason to make it better. Either take Power Attack if your group is usually fighting things that are fairly easy to hit or Knowledge Devotion to get bonuses to hit and damage.

• Is it worth it for me to take the craft rod feat at 9th level just for one nightstick? Are there any other good rods I can make (either for myself or the party)?

  Well, you're getting 14 turns / day by my math right now, and you'd need to build up 7 more to get a third daily; a nightstick will get you four of those, and you can buff your Charisma by six to get the other three (which isn't all that convenient actually; four extra Charisma is easily done with a single spell, either Eagle's Splendour or the Visage of the Deity chain come to mind.) If you're willing to cast Eagle's Splendour and Lesser Visage every morning, then building a nightstick gets you a third daily persist (and Visage of the Deity is actually a good Persist choice once you get access to it). Craft Rod might be worthwhile in any case so that you can make yourself a metamagic extend rod rather than trying to acquire one in-game; the extend rod means you get to persist twice as many buffs.

• What other feats should I pick up as I progress in levels?

  Power Attack is pretty useful to a melee character; assuming that your DM is giving you enemies that you can hit. I don't bother looking at it as our DM considers enemies with AC under 30 as easy targets.

• What equipment should I pick up? (Cheaper is better- GP is even harder to come by than XP in this world. Also, ignore most of the highly rare or overpowered stuff that I can't craft myself- the DM won't let it happen.)

  The important things to have are stuff that's giving you extra turns or extra Charisma (and therefore extra turns). Don't worry about super-groovy weapons or armour; you're going to buff yourself and the party up with your spells instead.

• What are the good things I can do with PAO and time stop? I've seen them widely praised (and took the Trickery domain for them), but I'm not sure yet how they'll work in practice.

  You're a very long way from either of those mattering; but Polymorphing is probably the single most broken thing in 3.5; turn someone or someone's pet into a hydra and watch it win the fight. Time Stop is free actions. Free actions means that you win; by the time you're casting ninth level spells, you'll know how to have the fight won during those extra rounds.

• Is there anything useful I can do with the Exorcism prestige domain? Is there a way to swap it out for something better?

  You could ask your DM to let you swap it for a Devotion feat; it isn't on the list in Complete Champion, so you'd have to figure out what domain it's closest to on the list. That feat may or may not be worthwhile; I'd try for Protection which definitely is a worthwhile devotion feat.

• I assume I should stop Sacred Exorcist at 9th level, when I get my last extra turn attempts. I would then be at ECL 16. Where should I go from there? Once I'm that high I expect taking a third class and losing the 20% EXP won't hurt me so much.

  No matter the level you're at, a 20% xp penalty will leave you well behind the party; but prestige classes don't count, so just find another PrC that you like.

• The Sacred Exorcist class skills incldue "Scry (Int, exclusive skill)." What do I do with that?

  I'd say just ignore it; or ask for Knowledge (arcana)
  

• What else am I forgetting?

  Cloistered Clerics only know how to use light armour, so you'll need to give up the full plate and buckler and try to get a mithral breastplate instead (or a monk's belt given your low dex)

[Rabk]

Thank you for the detailed reply, Agnostic Paladin. I don't think I'll get much use out of Power Attack, as our DM is also heavy-handed when doling out monsters. I'm getting Knowledge Devotion from giving up my knowledge domain, so do you have any suggestions on what other feat I should take?

[Rebel7284]

Thank you for the detailed reply, Agnostic Paladin. I don't think I'll get much use out of Power Attack, as our DM is also heavy-handed when doling out monsters. I'm getting Knowledge Devotion from giving up my knowledge domain, so do you have any suggestions on what other feat I should take?

If you do end up using Ice Axe (and you should), it may not matter how heavily armored monsters are... touch attacks will still hit them... very consistently.  Adding more damage to this is nice.

On the other hand, it's not 100% clear if power attack works with Ice Axe (on one hand, it's a spell effect, on the other hand it CREATES a magical Axe...)

However, if you don't want to use power attack, I will suggest you take a third Extra Turning.

Then at level 9, you can take craft rod and start popping out nightsticks and metamagic rods of extend spell.

[Edit] ---
I'd like to add that next level, your power spikes a lot.

Persist
Holy Transformation, lesser (SpC. page 116)
Divine Power
Ice Axe
Channeled Divine Shield

Less spells since you can't extend the level 4 ones yet (at least until you can get level 5 slots OR a normal rod of extend)

However, you end up with:
- 60 Foot Flight Speed
- 26 Str, 20 Con
- 2 Touch(!) attacks at +15/+10 dealing 2d12+7 damage AND you can still use a shield/off hand!
- DR10/Evil as before
- +2 Sacred bonus to all saves
- Darkvision 60 feet.
- A few extra temporary hit points.

That's high maneuverability, difficult to kill, and an average of 20 damage per hit (40 damage per round if you don't roll a 1 and your opponent isn't buffed to all hell or resistant to cold)

And hey, if your DM starts throwing things immune to cold at you after a few sessions of this, with 26 Str, even a plain old backup Morningstar will do SOME damage even if it's not a touch attack. +15/+10 1d8+8 and then change to using Darkfire next time

[Rabk]

I was just looking in the DMG, and almost all the rods (including lesser extend) listed are CL 17th. I assume that means I won't be able to craft them if I take the Craft Rod feat at level 9?

[phaedrusxy]

I was just looking in the DMG, and almost all the rods (including lesser extend) listed are CL 17th. I assume that means I won't be able to craft them if I take the Craft Rod feat at level 9?

I don't think that is a prereq. It's just the default CL assumed if you find/buy a rod from an NPC.

Check here:

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

The blue line says the creator sets the CL. The red one says the minimum is just what is needed to provide the prereqs (cast Magic Circle, if that's a prereq, etc). I think that's how this is supposed to read, but it is a bit confusing. IIRC, this might have been clarified in a FAQ at some point.

[Rabk]

IIRC, this might have been clarified in a FAQ at some point.

Can someone confirm this? My DM will definitely ask for something official.