[3.P] Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, ?

[ImperatorK]

I have three questions:
1. In a 4 man party with a Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage, what 4th class would be best as support? I assume it would have to be a spellcaster of sorts because at later levels a team can't function properly without one, and probably T1-2, but I don't know which. I'm thinking Cleric, because he's fully capable to go into combat together with his teammates or simply support them with spells (or even both).
If it makes a difference, the Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage and 4th guy can only take PrCs.

2. Th above mentioned Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage can gestalt with a T4 or below class. What combinations would be good?

3. Assuming you answered the above questions, what roles in and out-of-combat would you give those classes so that they complemented each other and cover most of the bases?

As always, my houserules are in play.

[Yirrare]

[...]If it makes a difference, the Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage and 4th guy can only take PrCs.[...]

This confuses me. Is it meant to say cannot take PrCs? Or...? How can they be only PrC if they are those classes. Or is the other gestalt side PrC only?
If not, Swashbuckler 3 for the Warblade and Paladin 2 for the Crusader might be nice.

Best Regards
Yirrare

[ImperatorK]

It means they can only multiclass with PrCs.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

But the Gestalt can be whatever?

The Martial Adepts get to Gestalt but the 4th party member doesn't? Or the 4th member does but only if zhe takes a tier 3 or lower class?

Can the Gestalt halves multiclass? Can they take PrCs?

Will the gestalt halves be ignoring your houserules about mushing together classes? If not, what tier are Warmaster et al?

Cleric seems like a decent choice for the 4th PC. Possibly a fairly specialized Cleric. Travel Domain for taxi spells seems like a plan. Do you expect to need trapfinding?

[ImperatorK]

But the Gestalt can be whatever?

T4 or below.

The Martial Adepts get to Gestalt but the 4th party member doesn't?

He's assumed to be a T1-2 class. So yes, the 4th guy can't gestalt.

Or the 4th member does but only if zhe takes a tier 3 or lower class?

I would strongly encourage the 4th player to take a T1-2 class. But if he insisted, then it would work like that.

Can the Gestalt halves multiclass? Can they take PrCs?

The same rules are used for both halves - they can only PrC.

Will the gestalt halves be ignoring your houserules about mushing together classes?

Most probably.

If not, what tier are Warmaster et al?

T3, I assume. Maybe a strong T3.

Cleric seems like a decent choice for the 4th PC. Possibly a fairly specialized Cleric.

Specialized in what?

Do you expect to need trapfinding?

Need? Not really. But it might be useful.

[Mithril Leaf]

Archivist with Academic Priest for your 4th man. Int based so he can cover some skill monkey stuff, lots of spells off lots of lists. A solid pick in a super melee heavy team.

[Unbeliever]

I'd be inclined to Wizard for the last as there isn't a lot of goon sweeping in the TOB-oriented party.  Anything other than a summoning-focused guy will be good -- a summoner would stomp too much on the melee bailiwick of the other characters.  An Archivist or a Cleric can do great b/c, well ... they can do all sorts of stuff, too.  It probably depends on whether the TOB characters want to play bodyguard or not.  If they don't, then the 4th should make a character who is as hardy as they are (totally doable).  On the other hand, they might really enjoy guarding the squishy, and then he should focus on buffing and blasting and large-scale battlefield control.

Frankly, though, I tend to build characters based on a concept rather than a single class.  I mean, what do these people want to play?  I can think of lots of cool T4 pairings with the TOB classes:  although I happen to find the tiers system silly and it unnecessary to gestalt TOB classes, but whatever.  Crusader//Paladin, Swordsage//Sneak Attack Fighter, Warblade//Rogue with a Tiger Claw focus or even Warblade//Monk for a mini-smack build plus Warblad goodies, Warblade//Marshal or Knight for an ultimate battlefield commander, Swordsage//Warlock for a more supernatural angle ...  the list goes on and on man. 

Bring us concepts, and we can help optimize.  This is all too abstract to really get a handle on. 

[ImperatorK]

There are no concepts yet. There even are no players yet. I just gather ideas so that I can give good informed suggestions to the players.

[veekie]

This is a martial heavy party...naturally this calls for a Bard to provide support magic...and watch the force multipliers go insane.

[ImperatorK]

But other than support magic, what can a Bard bring to the party? From what little I understand about the game, on higher levels and probably also on medium levels, a party can have it very very rough without a fullcaster.

[Llyendar]

Have you considered Marshal? It isn't a caster but it could go into combat with the other 3 and buff everyone with their auras.

The NEED for a spellcaster is based off of the idea that Sorcerer/Wizard are the two best classes at higher levels due to epic level spellcraft and the ability to make your own spells. The nice thing about tome of battle classes is that your manuevers are basically magic that is made accessible through physical prowess/meditation.

Also, if the Swordsage PrCs into Shadowsun Ninja this is very over powered class (especially if the character doesn't  mind becoming a very strong vampire as a possible drawback from one of the class features)

your main problem without a caster would currently be healing. Crusader can do a bit of heeling through manuevers and as long as gold isn't short you can use potions in the like. Crusared is basically the ToB version of a cleric and fill most roles of a cleric

[Unbeliever]

But other than support magic, what can a Bard bring to the party? From what little I understand about the game, on higher levels and probably also on medium levels, a party can have it very very rough without a fullcaster.

Not really true.  It all depends on how creative and reasonably well-optimized your players are.  I've played a handful of highish level games (12+) without a full caster, and it's been fine.  It just involves more of "breaking the boxes," which was a good thread from ages ago.  I'm playing in one right now where it's a Totemist, Monk (with lots of random classes), and a Homebrew Beguiler/Necromancer type of thing, and it's going fine. 

And, I'll reiterate, there are lots of good builds out there, but concepts are key.  Off the top of my head I thought of 4 gestalt combos for the Warblade, but it depends on what the player is going for.  Honestly, I/we can build a badass anything.  Likewise, nearly any 4th character can help out a lot, so long as they put some thought into it.  A well-built bard can turn them into murder machines that will hack through armies in the blink of an eye.  And, Bards can debuff like nobody's business, bring non-combat skills, and so on ...  Really, any decent build whose primary thing isn't swinging a sword (so maybe something with a bit of range given the melee focus?) would be great.


EDIT:  as Llyendar notes, Shadow Sun Ninja with a high unarmed combat damage (unarmed swordsage is the traditional move, though you could do it other ways, especially with some gestalt) is great for healing.  Even with just a 2-level dip.  Even better if the SSN is a necropolitan.

[Halinn]

EDIT:  as Llyendar notes, Shadow Sun Ninja with a high unarmed combat damage (unarmed swordsage is the traditional move, though you could do it other ways, especially with some gestalt) is great for healing.  Even with just a 2-level dip.  Even better if the SSN is a necropolitan.

Just a one level dip can get full healing for the party in downtime, if there's just one member with either the Necropolitan template or Tomb-Tainted Soul

[ImperatorK]

Homebrew Beguiler/Necromancer type of thing, and it's going fine

Isn't that a fullcaster?

And, I'll reiterate, there are lots of good builds out there, but concepts are key.

I'm not asking for builds though. Unless you consider an opinion on a good gestalt combination a build.

[Unbeliever]

Homebrew Beguiler/Necromancer type of thing, and it's going fine

Isn't that a fullcaster?

Kinda, it was just the only example of a game that I'm currently playing.  But, hey, if you want to zero in on that and ignore the other paragraphs I and others wrote ... fine, whatever. 


EDIT:  Bearchucks' post below kind of illustrates my point better than I did.  I've long thought that looking just at a class, is not really telling you much.  In 3.5 it's builds that matter.  And, you can build a variety of Crusaders, Swordsages, and Warblades, not to mention Bards, Clerics, and Wizards who can fill various roles.  My initial suggestion that some goonsweeping and battlefield control might be great for PC #4 is totally obsolete if someone goes with the (awesome) Bloodstorm Blade idea.  This is all just too abstract. 

[Bearchucks]

Bards -are- full casters.  What do you think sublime chord exists for?  Tack on War Weaver to cover lots of people, or Mage of the Arcane Order to get -just- that spell they need...They've also got UMD as a class skill so you can play around with whatever things you find, and they cover a bunch of skills.

Seconding Beguiler as well.  Skill, limited-list high-utility casting.

far as combos...Warblade//Fighter/Bloodstorm Blade is your BFC, throwing your pinballing greatsword around knocking things down with the dungeoncrasher stuff.
Crusader//Dragon Shaman or DFA or even Warlock makes for an interesting pseudocleric.

[Hallack]

Reading this I was going to suggest a Beguiler as well but I see it has already been proposed. 

[ImperatorK]

But, hey, if you want to zero in on that and ignore the other paragraphs I and others wrote ... fine, whatever.

I didn't. It was just a question.

This is all just too abstract.

If it's too abstract for ya then don't bother. I'm not forcing you to post. And I can't really help it that there's no players and thus no concepts yet. As I said, I'm just gathering good suggestions.

(If my post(s) sound kinda snarky then sorry, it's not on purpose.)

Bards -are- full casters.  What do you think sublime chord exists for?

Heh. I was just thinking the same thing.

Seconding Beguiler as well.  Skill, limited-list high-utility casting.

What makes it better than simply going Wizard or Sorcerer?

[Hallack]

Seconding Beguiler as well.  Skill, limited-list high-utility casting.

What makes it better than simply going Wizard or Sorcerer?

The answer is .... Beguiler.  They're just that cool.  Not more powerful, just cooler.   

[ImperatorK]

I'm not going for cool, though. And if I would, I'd consider powerful to be cool.