Author Topic: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build  (Read 7165 times)

Offline Kelsey MacAilbert

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Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« on: October 31, 2012, 08:15:11 PM »
This build started out as a response to a challenge to create a 20 point buy Pathfinder Fighter that relies on intelligence. After building her, however, I think I want to tweak her a bit to save her for use next time I play Pathfinder in a medieval setting.

I went with a dextrous fighter because I think that the ability to use TWF to make the shield do everything a shield can possibly do is something a smart fighter might want to do. I went with dwarf because a smart dwarf makes cultural sense and with the right racial options it provides good bonuses for this concept. The knowledge skills allow her to find and exploit both engineering or architectual and magical weaknesses, and UMD lets her maniuplate magic items into benifiting her, which I could easily see a smart warrior doing. Her local and historical knowledge lets her have the flexibility to deal with new and interesting people and gives her the knowledge she needs to function well in most any urban environment.

Here is the character sheet:

(click to show/hide)

I'm not looking for perfect optimization or anything that requires a major flavor tweak, but I would like to know if there are traits, feats, equipment, or the like I missed out on that could improve her effectiveness a bit without changing what she is at heart (a sword and shield fighter with lots of shield abilities and knowledge skills).

Offline Tonymitsu

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Re: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 09:50:30 AM »
Not sure if all of this applies to Pathfinder but...


You're concept of an intelligent fighter is not bad, but you'll be hard-pressed to say it's effective as well.
Nothing is bad about it in flavor or theory, but mechanically these are some of the problems:

1. Sword and board in a typical 3.x game is a horridly inefficient fighting style.  If you have a source of bonus damage (like skirmish or sneak attack or sudden strike), it's a good idea to wield two weapons because it increases your chances to scoop up handfuls of d6's.  Everyone else typically goes with a two-handed weapon because you get 1.5x strength bonus do damage and double your penalty on Power Attack to damage.  Just by the written rules your abilities are working extra without you having to really do anything.  Sword and board has no such benefits, and as was mentioned in another thread recently, you wind up spending character building resources on not sucking rather than being awesome.  I recall there was a "Captain America" build from the older boards that actually made use of just the shield in combat and was better with just that than a sword and shield.

2. You say you want to have an "intelligent" fighter. That's fine, but your concepts don't really extend beyond making smart tactical decisions that increase your chances of winning which, frankly, any character could and should do. It's just that you don't have anything that really makes your Intelligence work for you in combat. It's just sitting there not providing you anything that will save your life beyond your own ingenuity as a player.  This goes back to using character resources on not sucking since you have to do extra work to get UMD as a class skill and overcome your Charisma penalty.
Now, for instance, if you take the Knowledge Devotion feat you roll Knowledge checks to get bonuses to attack and damage for the rest of combat. Now your intelligence is doing something. A swashbuckler can add his Intelligence modifier to damage rolls in addition to strength. A Factotum can do almost everything with Intelligence, and in fact would likely fit the concept of an "Intelligent fighter" much better than a straight Fighter with a high Intelligence score would.


I'm not trying to tell you your idea is bad or how to play your character, but you should be aware that how effective your character will be will depend on the optimization level of the group. Aside from Use Magic Device, you could very easily see your character become marginalized to the point of useless in combat and not have anything meaningful to contribute.
"The only thing in the entire universe more dangerous than knowledge is ignorance."
--Lord Volkarion Knightcon

Offline ChupacabraJohn

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Re: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 12:04:57 PM »
Another big part of playing an int based melee fighter is using combat maneuvers. Disarms and trips and the like are a great way to gain an advantage in combat, and you need high int to get access to those feats.

I know some of the things mentioned by Tonymitsu are 3.5 things and do not have pathfinder equivalents, but its worth talking to your DM and seeing if you can take Knowledge Devotion as a feat. That'll give you a bonus to both hit and damage based on your knowledge skill checks.
Stupid twos!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline ChupacabraJohn

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Re: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 12:09:19 PM »
Also take a look at the Lore Warden archetype for fighter. It gives you some nice boons for being int based.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden
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Offline nijineko

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Re: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 12:09:54 PM »
(iirc, which i may not be...) swashbuckler and maybe arcane duelist for the int based bonuses?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 08:17:00 PM »
Sword + Board handbook:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10232

I suggest a major Titan Bloodline.  That level 12 ability is quite the dish.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#titan

I don't recall a specific attempt at an Int based Fighter.
It's entirely possible I am wrong about that.

Erudite 7 / Fighter 1 ... not necessarily in that order
Erudite +3 / SRD Slayer 9 , pick the Discipline version
and pick Psychokinesis/Evocation , later retrain the
psicrystal into Magic Mantled for your UMD goodies.
Chameleon Crafting feat from Dr#349 to help
learn Divine Power and Miracle from a Cleric.
That's about as good an Int "Fighter" as you can get.
 ;)
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Kelsey MacAilbert

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Re: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 08:59:45 PM »
I thought about Lore Warden, but I liked Shielded Fighter because it makes sword and board rather effective. With that and the right feats, I can TWF with a shield bash as my off hand weapon and keep my shield bonus to AC, and I can bull rush on a shield bash attack. It turns sword and board from mediocre to rather effective.

As for her being more a strategist than int based, this I have no answer to. I have to think on that.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Tweaking an intelligent fighter build
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2012, 12:50:42 PM »
Lore Warden actually seems kind of awesome in concept.  Maneuver Mastery and Know Thy Enemy are cool b/c I think they might make you into a maneuver machine.  There's something to the notion of an intelligent warrior who rather than just staving in his opponent's skulls disarms them, etc.

But, it might be one of those things that isn't as effective in practice than it sounds.  And, like many things in PF, it seems to come with some significant strings attached (standard action for Know Thy Enemy is sad compared to Knowledge Devotion).  Then again, it doesn't seem like you lose much for it.