Optimizing less effective combat styles

[veekie]

I figured this would fit better here.

What can MinMax do to less effective combat styles to make them suck less?

[Basket Burner]

I figured this would fit better here.

What can MinMax do to less effective combat styles to make them suck less?

It entirely depends on which. Some of them can be salvaged. Some are conceptually flawed, to the point where they'd require complete rewrites of the mechanics to be made functional which is more the purview of a homebrew board. And sometimes even that won't work. Sword and board, I'm looking at you.

[veekie]

All of them. What can you do to even the terrible ones? I don't believe we'd just give up on a challenge like that. If its hard its even more interesting to try.

[Basket Burner]

All of them. What can you do to even the terrible ones? I don't believe we'd just give up on a challenge like that. If its hard its even more interesting to try.

"reallyjoel's dad difficulty".

But two handed weapons are an example of something salvageable. You laugh, and immediately think of some four digits charger but consider how terrible they are without those things. Salvaged.

Dual wielding would be one of those things you have to homebrew to make good. Otherwise it's just an inferior, more costly two handed weapon build in every possible way.

Sword and board goes straight into the hopeless pile, for a number of reasons you probably already know.

[littha]

Magebred is allowed, Warbeast is allowed, and animal companions advance by size like any other monster.

The animal companion gains extra Hit Dice as noted in the table on page 36 of the Player's Handbook. The companion gains the full benefit from increased Hit Dice, including increased base attack, base saves, skill points, and feats. The animal companion, however, does not increase in size (any more than you do when adding Hit Dice for your class levels).

An animal companion is not a conjured creature and is not subject to effects, such as protection from evil or dismissal,  that banish or hedge out conjured creatures. Think of it as binding an animal companion rather than summoning it. To begin, you must first locate the kind of creature you desire. The prospective companion cannot be an advanced animal, nor can it be another character's animal companion or another character's familiar. It also can't have a template, even if that template doesn't change its type. Awakened animals can never serve as animal companions. The animal you choose must be of a kind your class makes available to you as an animal companion.

A druid or ranger may never acquire a magebred animal as a companion. Most druids and rangers are ambivalent toward such creatures, while some consider magebred animals to be corruptions of nature.

[veekie]

Fun thought that just came up.
Rapier + Light Shield
Build a regular TWF rogue on top of that, pausing long enough to take Improved Shield Bash and dip Fighter or Ranger for feats and proficiencies. If its Ranger 2 you don't even fall much behind on skills. Works about as well as any TWF rogue build and you're sorta getting a fair bit of AC that the light armor wearing could use.

EDIT: And if you're running PF you could probably use the Ranger for Str based TWF and shoot for Bashing Finish and Shield Master. Theres worse ways to suck.

EDIT2: And funny enough the rogue with a rapier and small shield is basically the historical swashbuckler.

[Mooncrow]

Hmm, how about a TWF build utilizing sneak attack, Iajutsu Focus and quickrazors?  Feat intensive, but that's a lot of potential extra damage from the offhand. 

[veekie]

Given the level of output on that you could even skip the quickrazors for the draw and drop method if you can still hit without enhancement bonuses.

[InnaBinder]

One handed still means no reach

Kusari-Gama, page 145 of the DMG. It's basically a one-handed spiked chain.

I have to question how many outside of these boards have even heard of that.

Well, it's in the DMG, so it's accessible to a really large percentage of those playing 3.5; it's not unreasonable to assume a given player doesn't have access to a particular Complete book, or MoI or something, but the DMG is all but required to play the game.

Additionally, I have to question how that thought could reasonably be dealt with on these boards.  You've eliminated anyone who posts here (or on any other board that you may mean with the broad "these boards" catch-all) from consideration.  You've phrased it in such a way to allow any evidence against your apparent belief that only hardcore optimizers have heard of it to be dismissed out of hand.

[RobbyPants]

I split the discussion of whether or not it's even worth attempting to optimize these styles into another thread. Please only use this one for discussing any ideas on how to min/max any of these styles.

[X-Codes]

You hacked out a post of mine which really doesn't belong in that thread.

You know, I think I've stumbled upon something quite interesting in the rules...  This is as much a theoretical idea I want to put past you guys as it is a practical build...

A Bull Rush is an attack action... so if you Pounce them, apparently you can also use those attacks to initiate Bull Rushes...

Also, let's assume that the Barbarian ACF that trades away Rage for Ranger features can also pick up the TWF style, because it's silly to just have one available and not the other.  Granted, this will make for a very un-barbarian barbarian, but it will make the result more fun.

Human Fighter 4/Barbarian 2, use a Heavy Shield as your main-hand weapon, and some Light weapon as your off-hand weapon.

ACFs:
Hunter Barbarian*
UA Wolf Totem Barbarian
CC Lion Totem Barbarian
Hit and Run Fighter
Dungeoncrasher Fighter
Zhentarim Fighter

Feats: (1) Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Cometary Collision, Improved Shield Bash, (2) Improved Initiative*, (3) Shield Charge, (6) Imperious Command*, Shock Trooper
Class Features: Favored Enemy +2, Pounce, +2 Initiative, +Dex to damage against Flat-Footed Enemies
Non-Selectable Bonus Feats: TWF, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Improved Trip
Flaws: Don't care, pick 2.
Abilities (33 PB): Strength 17, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15
Buffs: Enlarge Person, Haste
Items: +1 Weapons, Armbands of Might, Brute Gauntlets

*If this variant isn't allowed to pick up TWF, then take Shield Specialization and Agile Shield Fighter, instead.  The below will be the same, although the build becomes more of a one-trick pony... at least at level 6.

Attack Bonus: +6 BAB +5 Strength +1 Enhancement +1 Haste -1 Size -2 TWF = +10, +12 Charging (you'll pretty much always be charging)
Shortsword/Shield Damage: 1d8 +1 Enhancement +5/+2 Strength +2 Brute Gauntlets +6 Power Attack +2 Armbands of Might = 1d8+16/1d8+13, 1d8+20/1d8+17 Charging (see above)
Dungeoncrasher Damage: 4d6+10, 4d6+14 Charging
Trip Modifier: +4 Strength, +4 Size, +4 Improved Trip +2 Brute Gauntlets +2 Armbands of Might= +16
Bull Rush Modifier: as above, +18 when Charging
Attack Routine: Shield +10/+10/+5, Shortsword +10

Let's say this guy is fighting a gang of ogres.  He probably wins Initiative, uses his Swift action to activate his Brute Gauntlets (+2) his move action to position himself to protect the party, and readies his standard action.  Ogre 1 Charges, this guy smacks him with a Cometary Collision while he's still close to his buddies.  He might take a hit in the process, but it's unlikely that the Ogre does enough damage to threaten him.  Instead of the usual Charge attack, he does a Bull Rush (+18 vs. +9) and probably moves the ogre 10' back into the group, bull rushing them at least into at least two enemies, who he should now be threatening.  This triggers Domino Rush, which gives you two trip attempts (+16 vs. +9).  Ogres 1 and 2, the two knocked together, if tripped, can either be smacked with the Shield for near-mortal damage, or can get bull-rushed 5' into a wall for probably-mortal damage.  Ogre 3 instead gets Smacked with the shield, tripped, and then bull-rushed on the free attack into 2 more ogres to repeat the process (which can be repeated 2 more times, each time potentially beating 2 more ogres within an inch of their lives, if not killing them outright).  Likely outcome is 7 ogres with less than 10 HP remaining, all of which are prone, some of them are just plain dead.

This is not quite do-able with Domino Rush alone.  If you use your free attack after a trip to bull rush the prone opponent across the ground into another ogre, you can't trip them again because they're already prone, so you never actually land a damaging attack on them, they're just prone (and maybe dizzy).

Some method of making twisted charges might be required to make this more practical, otherwise you might be required, RAW, to continue running in a straight line the whole time (paving a road with the corpses of your enemies might be fun, though).

[RobbyPants]

You hacked out a post of mine which really doesn't belong in that thread.

Sorry about that. If you feel there are more I should bring back, I can do so. I had to make a bit of a judgment call on where to start, and it was tough pruning through 8 pages.

[skydragonknight]

Just in case I need to find it later and am looking through this thread:

Optimized Spring Attack with Two-Weapons

The casual, diet variety baseline:

(click to show/hide)

Scout 4/Ranger 9/Tempest 5/Highland Stalker 2

Race: Human

Ranger 1  1st favored enemy, Wild Empathy, Track (B), Expeditious Dodge, Weapon Finesse(Human)
Ranger 2  Two-Weapon Fighting (B)
Scout 1  Skirmish +1d6, Trapfinding, Mobility
Scout 2  Battle Fortitude+1, Uncanny Dodge
Scout 3  Fast Movement +10 ft, Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, Trackless Step
Ranger 3  Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC, 2nd Favored Enemy, Swift Hunter, Endurance(B)
Ranger 4  Skirmish +2d6/+2 AC, Animal Companion, Spellcasting
Ranger 5
Ranger 6  Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(B), Spring Attack
Tempest 1  Tempest Defense +1
Tempest 2  Ambidexterity (-3/-1)
Tempest 3  Tempest Defense +2, Two-weapon Versatility, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Tempest 4  Ambidexterity (-2/-0)
Tempest 5  Tempest Defense +3, Two-Weapon Spring Attack*
Scout 4  Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC (+5d6/+4 AC), 3rd favored enemy, Bounding Assault*, Improved Skirmish
Highland Stalker 1  Mountain Stride
Highland Stalker 2  Skirmish +4d6/+2 AC (+6d6/+4 AC)
Ranger 7  Skirmish +4d6/+3 AC (+6d6/+5 AC), Improved Critical (or whatever)
Ranger 8
Ranger 9  Skirmish +5d6/+3 AC (+7d6/+5 AC)

Pros:
-Very Basic (PHB, PHB 2, C.Adv, C.Sco)
-Four Attacks on a Spring Attack with no TWF penalty
-Decent damage per hit (+7d6 skirmish)
-Good AC/Touch AC +8 AC (including tempest defense)
-Only requires Dex and Con

Cons:
-Feat Intensive
-Comes 'online' late - 15th level
-Precision damage
-Useless in cramped quarters or against fliers (hint: get a Phoenix Cloak)

The "Spellcasting and Splatbooks make everything better" build

(click to show/hide)

Wiz 1/Scout 4/Ranger 10/Tempest 5

Race: Draconic (cancels penalties) Gray Elf with LA buy-back

Scout 1  Skirmish +1d6, Trapfinding, Expeditious Dodge, Power Attack(flaw), Otherworldly (flaw)
Scout 2  Battle Fortitude+1, Uncanny Dodge
Scout 3  Fast Movement +10 ft, Skirmish +1d6/+1AC, Trackless Step, Mobility
Mystic Ranger 1  Wild Empathy, Spellcasting, Track(B)
Mystic Ranger 2  1st Favored Enemy
Mystic Ranger 3  Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC, 2nd favored enemy, Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Swift Hunter
Shooting Star Mystic Ranger 4  Skirmish +2d6/+2 AC, Improved Spellcasting, Endurance (B)
Scout 4  Skirmish +2d6/+2 AC (+4d6/+4 AC), Improved Skirmish(B)
Fighter Feat Wizard 1 Wizard Casting, Spring Attack(B), Sword of the Arcane Order (Use Gloves of the Balanced Hand to qualify for Tempest)
Tempest 1  Tempest Defense +1
Tempest 2  Ambidexterity (-3/-1)
Tempest 3  Tempest Defense +2, Two-weapon Versatility, Improved TWF (for paranoia's sake if you lose GotBH)
Tempest 4  Ambidexterity (-2/-0)
Tempest 5  Tempest Defense +3, Two-Weapon Spring Attack*
Mystic Ranger 5  Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC, (+5d6/+4 AC), Bounding Assault
Mystic Ranger 6
Mystic Ranger 7  Skirmish +3d6/+3 AC, (+5d6/+5 AC), 3rd favored enemy, Woodland Stride, Improved TWF (B) (retrain the earlier feat to Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard)
Mystic Ranger 8  Swift Tracker, Open Feat/GTWF
Mystic Ranger 9  Skirmish +4d6/+3 AC (+6d6/+5 AC), Evasion
Mystic Ranger 10  Use Heroics for Rapid Blitz*

Pros:
-6 Attacks on a Spring Attack with +6d6 Damage
-High CL. SotAO adds Ranger levels to Wizard CL. Shooting Star adds Wizard CL to Ranger CL for Ranger spells. With Orange Ioun Stone and Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard), Wizard CL = 16 and Ranger CL = 27
-Good Polymorph/Alter Self Forms (access to Outsider forms)
-+9d6 Sneak Attack with Hunter's Eye and Greater Invisibility/Black Tentacles to use it. Or just flank.
-Wraithstrike gives +18 damage when power-attacking or just plain reliable attacks otherwise.
-With AC from skirmish, Tempest and buffs, very hard to hit. Access to Mirror Image to add insult to injury.
-Playable at all levels (though lags a bit during Tempest)

Cons
-A little MAD pre-Polymorph. Wants 13 Str, 13 Dex, decent Con, good Wis and 15 Int
-Still precision damage mostly
-Still feat intensive
-Ditching Tempest and Spring Attack for Revenant Blade would likely be a superior build

[akalsaris]

Since the threads were split (thank you), I'll repost gorfnab's suggestions for optimizing defensive fighting/combat expertise:

Here's a challenge: how decent can one make a character based on defensive fighting bonuses? You know, fighting defensively, combat expertise, broadblade short swords, etc.

Here's two builds I came up with a while ago. They are also both 1-handed unarmored fighting builds.

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Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If allowed flaws you can nab EWP: Broadblade Shortsword and Karmic Strike. Look into Cautious if Traits are allowed.

(click to show/hide)

Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Duelist
12. Duelist - Combat Reflexes
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Karmic Strike, Improved Combat Expertise, or Snap Kick
19. Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Duelist

If you can't get or don't want EWP: Broadblade Shortsword, move Combat Reflexes to 3rd level and add Snap Kick (best option) or Improved Combat Expertise (decent option) to 12th level

Also here is a handbook over on GitP on fighting defensively. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178445

[veekie]

Hmm, what about Core-only mounted combat?
The Druid/Ranger has an easy out with a badass mount feature, but anyone stuck using the regular warhorse is going to need to bring himself a herd.

Though I think the archery version might work.

[JaronK]

You know, it was someone claiming that shields couldn't work without house rules that made me finally build those shield builds that actually work... for reference:  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0 .  Admittedly, they're not exactly Sword and Board because the Sword part is pretty irrelevant (useful for the Crusader if it's a Spinning Sword for Reach with Iron Guard's Glare and the like, but that's about it).  But still, you can make something happen.

Two Weapon Fighting is easy to make work too.  Just make those hits really count.  Endless poison builds (using Minor Creation or the Psionic version) can certainly benefit from the extra poison hits, and you can absolutely optimize poison until it counts (for things that aren't immune, of course).  Status debuffs can also be handy, as can generally doing things other than straight hit point damage.  Consider a crit fisher using a pair of Keen Aptitude Enfeebling Kukris (15-20 crit range, 1d6+2 Str damage per crit even against immunes) using Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick (every critical threat grants a new attack, every confirmed crit grants another) along with Blood in the Water (+1 to hit and damage, stacking, every time you crit, until you don't crit for a minute).  Make sure you can pounce for mobility and you've got someone who strength drains enemies to death while charging up, so that the longer the encounter goes the more powerful he gets.  Best against DMs who like to send in enemies in waves.  Add in the Eviscerator line of feats and Zhentarium Fighter 9/Imperious Command and anything that's not immune to fear becomes absolutely unable to act after you crit.

JaronK

[carnivore]

he did not say it relys on Poison ..... what he posted was

"Just make those hits really count.  Endless poison builds (using Minor Creation or the Psionic version) can certainly benefit from the extra poison hits, and you can absolutely optimize poison until it counts (for things that aren't immune, of course)."

his build actuall focuses on Crits+Strength Drain and accumulating boosts from "Blood in the Water" stance .... which is a very nice idea

the Build from my perspective is very creative and performs quite well .... being Negative by complaining about things out of context is not contributing to progressive development and is not courteous IMHO

 

[Basket Burner]

He specifically said extra hits. You even quoted that part. I also already said it relies on low percentage procs, which you also just agreed with.

[InnaBinder]

More attacks help a poison build because the first swing isn't always the first hit, even if it's the most likely to hit statistically.

[Mooncrow]

Right, because having multiple angles to remove enemy combatants from a fight is counted as one trick if it's a non caster, but it's many tricks if you're a wizard.

Last I checked, having several things that are based around exactly the same thing is considered one trick. Just as Leap Attack and Shock Trooper both build towards charging, everything he does revolves around getting a 15-20 on an attack. Low percentage procs.

Eh, probability-wise, on 4 attacks, he has a ~75% chance of a crit per round, or the same as a mob who saves against a spell on a 16 or better. 

Drop and draw lets you poison all of your attacks, or alternately, the Toxic enhancement will let you make up to 4 poison attacks per round.  That's not bad for spending one feat and/or getting a +1 ability tacked on to a weapon.  And hey, it comes on-line before 20...