Optimizing less effective combat styles

[X-Codes]

That is true.  The funny thing about fighting with a shield, though, is that if you take shield-fighting feats, your shield is going to be a better weapon than your sword.

[veekie]

Hmm...what about fighting unarmed proper? No handwraps or gauntlets.

[weenog]

I used to have a "kick in the junk" build among my notes that involved using an unarmed strike as a delivery system for a bunch of ability damage and debilitating status effects, I'll see if I can dig it up.

There's always tashalatora psywar isn't there?

[littha]

I used to have a "kick in the junk" build among my notes that involved using an unarmed strike as a delivery system for a bunch of ability damage and debilitating status effects, I'll see if I can dig it up.

There's always tashalatora psywar isn't there?

Something along the lines of:
Elan Battle dancer 5/Souleater 10/??? 5

Inflict 2 negative levels per attack 


Really you only want 1 level of Battle Dancer though,
Elan Battle Dancer 1/Warblade 4/Soul Eater 10/Warblade 5+
is stronger. Especially considering tiger claw manuvers for extra attacks.

Of course you could take monk instead of battle dancer but then you need an extra level to make up for the lost BAB

Feel free to sub Elan for any other nonhumanoid ECL 1 race.

[weenog]

I used to have a "kick in the junk" build among my notes that involved using an unarmed strike as a delivery system for a bunch of ability damage and debilitating status effects, I'll see if I can dig it up.

There's always tashalatora psywar isn't there?

Something along the lines of:
Elan Battle dancer 5/Souleater 10/??? 5

Inflict 2 negative levels per attack 

There was a lot more rogue involved.  I didn't start off looking to make the strongest unarmed striker available, but rather to demonstrate that you don't need bullshit called shot rules if you want to make called shots, there is rules support for kicking somebody when (or where) he's not expecting it and having him double over in pain unable to do anything but groan up at you, and then limp pretty badly when he does get up.  There were some sneak attack modifying abilities involved.

[SorO_Lost]

Something along the lines of:
Elan Battle dancer 5/Souleater 10/??? 5

Inflict 2 negative levels per attack 

Enhance your armor with Energy Drain^DotF, rip the Lifedrinker's^Core ability and put it into a Necklace of Nature Weapons^SS, then invest 10 levels else where.

You deal 1d4+2 negative levels but gain one negative level for doing so, Heeelllloooo Necropoliton!

Bit of SA + Aleval School + Sickening Strike + Terrifying Strike + Disemboweling Strike
=-6 to saves, 1d4 con damage (avg 2 for -1 more to fort). The trick is to hit multiple opponents so they are more susceptible to your Wizard's mass save vs death spells.

Also: +5 Enhancement + Venomous Strike + Assassinate + Ring of the Viper
Your attack delivers poison. 1d6 con initial/secondary, DC 19. With penalties it's like DC 30 to try and squeeze in more Con Damage (and it gets higher with more con dmg/neg lvls).

And don't forget Wounding either. 1 con damage per attack, it's still handy.

[JaronK]

Okay, here's a fun style I like optimizing: hidden weapons.  Obviously the basic thing to use is Quickrazors, but Complete Scoundrel offers lots of fun options (boot blades and the like), as well as an alchemical substance that lets you flat foot enemies the first time you attack with the weapon.  There's a lot of potential here, I think (though the cost of that substance is too high for constant use).

JaronK

[X-Codes]

Okay, here's a fun style I like optimizing: hidden weapons.  Obviously the basic thing to use is Quickrazors, but Complete Scoundrel offers lots of fun options (boot blades and the like), as well as an alchemical substance that lets you flat foot enemies the first time you attack with the weapon.  There's a lot of potential here, I think (though the cost of that substance is too high for constant use).

JaronK

This one isn't too hard.  Let's take a Rogue 4/Sorcerer 1/Unseen Seer 3/Magical Trickster 3/Swiftblade 9 and give it Sudden Draw.

[veekie]

Improvised Weapons? I think thats even harder to make work than unarmed.

[X-Codes]

Improvised Weapons? I think thats even harder to make work than unarmed.

They probably both involve the Drunken Master.

[Noliar]

Improvised Weapons? I think thats even harder to make work than unarmed.

They probably both involve the Drunken Master.

Feral Half-minotaur warhulk/ hulking hurler - your improvised weapons are thrown houses

[JaronK]

Damn, was gonna go with that same idea.  With the Hulking Hurler, EVERYTHING is a weapon.  Though with Morphing Sizing Returning Shurikens, you should be able to do insane stuff.  For just 4kgp you can get a Morphing Sizing Returning +5 Shuriken with two other points of enchantment on it... change it into a Gargantuan Dagger and fling it.  But still, Improvised could get you heavier stuff still, and thus wins out.

JaronK

[akalsaris]

Hidden Weapons optimization might be another natural choice for factotums. If I remember correctly, some of the tricks made drawing a hidden weapon a standard action, so more standard actions are always a good thing, especially combined with iajutsu focus when drawing.

I'm using some hidden weapons tricks for my latest character in Iron Kingdoms. IK lets you throw 2 throwing knives with each attack, and has a ton of hidden weapon equipment. There is a hidden holster for knives that lets you draw them as a free action, or you can combine a melee weapon with a gun: on a successful melee attack, you then can shoot the gun at +2 as a free action, and your opponent is flat-footed against the attack.

There are also gun holsters for the sleeves, collapsible batons and staves, staff-spears, collapsible bows, spring-loaded blades, etc. All stuff that is elsewhere in D&D as well, but nice for a stealthy character anyhow.

[SorO_Lost]

Mosquitoes Bite, pop out a toe blade and kick them. They think you "missed" from the trick, can be handled as they though you did kick them but didn't see or feel the blade just deal +25d6+20 SA and 9d6+90 Iaijutsu damage to their internal organs.

[X-Codes]

Hidden Weapons optimization might be another natural choice for factotums. If I remember correctly, some of the tricks made drawing a hidden weapon a standard action, so more standard actions are always a good thing, especially combined with iajutsu focus when drawing.

I'm using some hidden weapons tricks for my latest character in Iron Kingdoms. IK lets you throw 2 throwing knives with each attack, and has a ton of hidden weapon equipment. There is a hidden holster for knives that lets you draw them as a free action, or you can combine a melee weapon with a gun: on a successful melee attack, you then can shoot the gun at +2 as a free action, and your opponent is flat-footed against the attack.

There are also gun holsters for the sleeves, collapsible batons and staves, staff-spears, collapsible bows, spring-loaded blades, etc. All stuff that is elsewhere in D&D as well, but nice for a stealthy character anyhow.

Simpler than that.  Again, Rogue/Arcane into Magical Trickster giving you the ability to burn spell slots to draw a weapon as an immediate action.

...Hey, maybe we can do this with a Lightsaber...  Do a Craft (calligraphy) version of Inscribe Rune, and inscribe runes of Flame Dagger (or better, Scimitar of Sand... or even Decastave or Thunderlance) into little scraps of paper that you hide in the usual places.  When you draw one out, you activate the rune (by touching it) and out pops a lightsaber that you get to instantly make a touch/flat-footed attack with.

[SorO_Lost]

People and their silly lightsabers. Really it was kind of ok thirty years ago, the reflare up when Lucas butchered his movie was expected. But srsly people, tossing out flaming swords, giant lances out of sound, or really anything else so damn far off over the last 12 years 3rd edition has been out is tiring. I have found my new sig for a while.

[veekie]

Damn, was gonna go with that same idea.  With the Hulking Hurler, EVERYTHING is a weapon.  Though with Morphing Sizing Returning Shurikens, you should be able to do insane stuff.  For just 4kgp you can get a Morphing Sizing Returning +5 Shuriken with two other points of enchantment on it... change it into a Gargantuan Dagger and fling it.  But still, Improvised could get you heavier stuff still, and thus wins out.

JaronK

Wonder if its at all practical to Bloodstorm a Hulking Hurler, if it returns you could probably do without the shuriken trick even.

[Noliar]

I remember a very silly one shot I played in where the rule was any D20 ECL 30 character you liked. When the DM said yes to jedi I decided that I need anti star-destroyer capability. Half dragon feral desmodu fighter /hulking hurler /bard interdimensional rockstar for nigh unlimited budget, had a belt with every type of STR bonus stacked. My weapon was a 10 foot long throwing axe made of adamantium reinforced tungsten a foot thick with great round weights at either end because that was the only way I could pack in enough mass (It was called The Axe and could transform into an electric guitar).

(The jedi turned out to be Pikachu, the adventure was a dungeoncrawl and I ended up reducing the Axe damage to a mere 200d6 for balance.)

[skydragonknight]

I remember a very silly one shot I played in where the rule was any D20 ECL 30 character you liked. When the DM said yes to jedi I decided that I need anti star-destroyer capability. Half dragon feral desmodu fighter /hulking hurler /bard interdimensional rockstar for nigh unlimited budget, had a belt with every type of STR bonus stacked. My weapon was a 10 foot long throwing axe made of adamantium reinforced tungsten a foot thick with great round weights at either end because that was the only way I could pack in enough mass (It was called The Axe and could transform into an electric guitar).

(The jedi turned out to be Pikachu, the adventure was a dungeoncrawl and I ended up reducing the Axe damage to a mere 200d6 for balance.)

THIS is why flavor is mutable.

[lans]

Martial Monk might be the best way to cover a lot of these styles without ToB.
Perfect TWF at level 1 saves you 2 feats, and Melee Weapon Mastery makes up your hit and damage outputs
+1/6 hit and damage might be the other way to go/
Cloistered Cleric is another good choice,  Knowledge Devotion, Weapon Focus 1 other domain. Refluff the spells to down time battle treatments if you need to.

Your probably going to want to try to push for partial BABs. So Martial Monk 2/C Cleric 1 is 2 BAB