Optimizing less effective combat styles

[JaronK]

Just because we were having fun with basic shield builders, here's a 32 Point Buy (I was told that's standard) shield dwarf character.  Level 4 and level 6.

Dwarf Barbarian 2/Crusader 2 (Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem, and Wolf Totem used)
2 Flaws.  Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, Shield Charge
Strength 17, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 6, 45hp, +10 Fort, +2 Ref (or +3 with Fractional Saves, additional +2 when Raging), +2 Will (or +3 with Fractional Saves), 23 AC (25 when Raging)
Gear:  Spiked Mechanicus Gear (600gp, Self Crafted),  +1 Masterwork Heavy Shield with Masterwork Spikes (1160gp, Self Crafted Mundane Part), Masterwork Smithing Tool (50gp), Sling, 4590gp extra left over (I could afford Mithral Mechanicus Gear, but the overall cost would be more than half total WBL, which I don't think should be allowed).

Skills: Craft Armor smithing 7 (+10 related to metal), Jump 7, Craft Weapon smithing 7 (+10 related to metal)
Maneuvers:  Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Charging Minotaur, with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances.
Attacks:  Shield Bash +8 (1d6+4).  When raging, 2 Shield Bash +8 (1d6+7).  When Charging and Raging, 2 Shield Bash +10 (1d6+7 plus automatic trip at +7, extra attack if trip succeeds).  Or Sling +6 1d3+3.

Dwarf Barbarian 2/Crusader 2/Fighter 2 (Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem, and Wolf Totem used)
2 Flaws.  Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, Shield Charge, Extra Granted Maneuver, Shield Slam, Shock Trooper
Strength 19, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 6, +13 Fort, +2 Ref (or +4 with Fractional Saves, additional +2 When Raging), +2 Will (or +4 with Fractional Saves), 26 AC (28 when Raging)
Gear:  +1 Mithral Netcutter Spiked Mechanicus Gear (4750gp, Mundane Part Self Crafted), +1 Masterwork Heavy Shield with +1 Masterwork Spikes (3160gp, Self Crafted Mundane Part), Masterwork Smithing Tool (50gp), Sling, Belt of Strength +2 (4kgp).  1040gp left over
Skills: Craft Armor smithing 9 (+12 related to metal), Jump 7, Craft Weapon smithing 7 (+10 related to metal)
Maneuvers:  Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Charging Minotaur, with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances.
Attacks:  Shield Bash +11/+6 (1d6+7).  When raging, Shield Bash +11/+11/+6 (1d6+10).  When Charging and Raging, Shield Bash +13/+13/+8 (1d6+22 plus automatic trip at +8 and daze (DC 17), extra attacks if trip succeeds).  Or Sling +8 1d3+4.

Needs work, but should be pretty effective.  Doesn't seem like anything that's crazy optimized (there's a bunch of Barbarian variants, but that's about it.  Mostly it's just a dwarf with a shield and armor).  Seems basic and solid, right?  I should probably fill in the extra gp costs. 

JaronK

[X-Codes]

Just because we were having fun with basic shield builders, here's a 32 Point Buy (I was told that's standard) shield dwarf character.  Level 4 and level 6.

Standard PB varies by setting.  IIRC, it's 32 in Faerun and 28 in Living Greyhawk and Eberron.  The PHB suggests that 25 should be the standard, but that's based off the shitty Elite Array.  Most games I see on MW that use PB at all use 32 and up, though (but most of the time they use VERY generous rolling schemes).

Wasn't there a dual-morningstar fighter somewhere?  IIRC it was pretty good, but maybe that's because it used a bad reading of Pulverize/Skewer Foe...

[JaronK]

Heh, according to "Basket Burner" (God the name is obvious) 32 point buy is standard.

With that said, if it were a lower point buy I'd just lower Wisdom a bit, so it wouldn't really change much.  The build could be 28 point buy and it would just have two lower will saves.  Come to think of it, a Warblade dip for an emergency Will Save boost might be wise.

JaronK

[Basket Burner]

The obvious baiting cheap shot aside, 32 PB is indeed standard.

[RobbyPants]

Heh, according to "Basket Burner" (God the name is obvious)

Drop the baiting.

32 PB is indeed standard.

It depends on what you mean by "standard". 25 and 28 also seem pretty standard from what I've seen.

[Seerow]

I've always considered 28 standard, with 25 for lower power games and 32 for high power games. I don't think I've ever sat down at a table I wasn't running where 32pb was standard.


Anyway, on the topic of optimizing less effective styles: Would it be possible to make a Sword and Board focused Idiot Crusader? I've tried to make one but run into the problem of there being basically no Tome of Battle prestige classes that would support it. Like a Prestige Class with maneuver progression is required (to get the extra maneuvers readied while shuffling maneuvers known off to Warblade or Swordsage), but without a lot of finagling your prestige class options as a Crusader just suck. Like RKV is literally the only one that is worth a damn. Any ideas on how to make this work?

(In case you're not familiar, Idiot Crusader is where you make your Maneuvers Granted = Maneuvers Known, by using Prestige Classes to apply maneuvers readied to Crusader, and Maneuvers Known to Swordsage/Warblade, so that every round you are granted every Crusader maneuver each round)

[Mooncrow]

I've always considered 28 standard, with 25 for lower power games and 32 for high power games. I don't think I've ever sat down at a table I wasn't running where 32pb was standard.


Anyway, on the topic of optimizing less effective styles: Would it be possible to make a Sword and Board focused Idiot Crusader? I've tried to make one but run into the problem of there being basically no Tome of Battle prestige classes that would support it. Like a Prestige Class with maneuver progression is required (to get the extra maneuvers readied while shuffling maneuvers known off to Warblade or Swordsage), but without a lot of finagling your prestige class options as a Crusader just suck. Like RKV is literally the only one that is worth a damn. Any ideas on how to make this work?

(In case you're not familiar, Idiot Crusader is where you make your Maneuvers Granted = Maneuvers Known, by using Prestige Classes to apply maneuvers readied to Crusader, and Maneuvers Known to Swordsage/Warblade, so that every round you are granted every Crusader maneuver each round)

I would have to math it out, but couldn't you do it with Eternal Blade?

[lans]

Is their a way to equp an animal companion with a S&B?

What other less effective combat styles are there?
Off hand I'm thinking

Incombat healing
TWF
One handed fighting
-Mixed-
Non magic based unarmed?

[InnaBinder]

Is their a way to equp an animal companion with a S&B?

What other less effective combat styles are there?
Off hand I'm thinking

Incombat healing
TWF
One handed fighting
-Mixed-
Non magic based unarmed?

Apes are not horrible as animal companions, and can readily use S&B if you desire.
In-combat healing is reasonably done via Crusader + the Vigor line, since it frees up actions.
TWF is fairly well-covered.
One handed fighting with a Spinning Sword and the Robilar's/Karmic combo works adequately in a Tier 3 - 4 game.
No idea about the others.

[Mooncrow]

Is their a way to equp an animal companion with a S&B?

What other less effective combat styles are there?
Off hand I'm thinking

Incombat healing
TWF
One handed fighting
-Mixed-
Non magic based unarmed?

Hmm, persisted shapechange/polymorph into a humanoid, I guess?  Possibly Apes, or other tool users.  It would definitely work with familiars though. 

For S&B and TWF builds, assuming a UMD user, it does allow for two wands to be readied at once with wand chambers.  (one handed as well, I guess - but seriously, that's going to be a hard style to make better)

There was an in-combat healing thread just a little while ago on the old boards - seeing how many mass heals a character could pump out per round.  I'll have to dig it up though.

[JaronK]

Is their a way to equp an animal companion with a S&B?

Apes, Dire Apes, and Legendary Apes should all be able to do it if you want, I suppose.

What other less effective combat styles are there?
Off hand I'm thinking

Incombat healing

Binders can already rock this with Zceryll (they can spam heal).  Crusaders do a reasonable enough job, though you have to keep your party from taking too many hits too (that's the trick of it... don't just heal).  Heck, the shield build I showed already can do it... you daze and trip enemies while healing allies, so they don't take too much damage and you help heal what damage they do take in combat.

TWF

I think we've done a bunch of these already... mostly sneak attackers and similar, or status debuffers, or crit based builds.

One handed fighting

This one's tough.  One advantage of it is you can use enchanted Shurikens with various benefits that don't require attacking (such as defending)... they're cheap as heck and thus allow for big benefits, but you don't actually do anything except holding it in your offhand.  Combine this with maneuvers, which don't care much about base damage, and consider using a Spinning Sword or Kusari Gama for reach.  That's about all I can think of that might be useful.

-Mixed-
Non magic based unarmed?

Unarmed Swordsage.  Done.

JaronK

[Seerow]

I've always considered 28 standard, with 25 for lower power games and 32 for high power games. I don't think I've ever sat down at a table I wasn't running where 32pb was standard.


Anyway, on the topic of optimizing less effective styles: Would it be possible to make a Sword and Board focused Idiot Crusader? I've tried to make one but run into the problem of there being basically no Tome of Battle prestige classes that would support it. Like a Prestige Class with maneuver progression is required (to get the extra maneuvers readied while shuffling maneuvers known off to Warblade or Swordsage), but without a lot of finagling your prestige class options as a Crusader just suck. Like RKV is literally the only one that is worth a damn. Any ideas on how to make this work?

(In case you're not familiar, Idiot Crusader is where you make your Maneuvers Granted = Maneuvers Known, by using Prestige Classes to apply maneuvers readied to Crusader, and Maneuvers Known to Swordsage/Warblade, so that every round you are granted every Crusader maneuver each round)

I would have to math it out, but couldn't you do it with Eternal Blade?

Hrm, I generally ignore this class since I don't like elves, but looking at it again... the eternal training giving you an extra maneuver known/readied X/day is actually a pretty neat effect.

The big downside I see is the int focus, where your primary stats are going to be Str/Con with 14-16 dex. Normally I'd go with Wood Elf, but the int penalty is a penalty to several prestige class features, and with that late entry I'm likely to end up with a lot of levels in Warblade.

Easiest entry would be Warblade8/Crusader2/Eternal Blade 10. Though if there is another full BAB prestige class to replace some of those warblade levels it would be manageable. Full BAB is the key, because I need +10 asap to get into eternal blade. *checks* Nope, there is nothing else at all. Though I suppose I could spend some of those Warblade maneuvers on Tiger claw, and have something like Warblade5/Crusader2/Bloodclaw Master 4/Eternal Blade 9.

This costs me the awesome Eternal Blade Capstone at 20, but would be better at most other levels, getting me more offense via shield bashing, and a higher Crusader IL. It gets me by the end +4 maneuvers readied total, combined with Extra Granted Maneuver and 5/day eternal training means for 5 encounters per day I have 8 readied maneuvers that refresh each round.

The maneuvers known would be the base 5 from Crusader, would like to pick up one from Bloodclaw master for a refreshing TWFing maneuver but that delays actually getting to the point of having unlimited maneuvers, so that leaves 2 known from  Eternal Blade (can be Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, or White Raven), and 1 from Eternal Training (Diamond Mind or Devoted Spirit).

The warblade side would forever have 4 maneuvers readied, but would have 11 known, which could mostly be used to fuel prereqs for the Crusader maneuvers, while keeping 4 of the better utility maneuvers readied.

The build ends up with a BAB+19, IL19 for the Warblade, and just barely snags IL17 for the Crusader to get a 9th level maneuver or two right at the end. It hits the point of maneuvers refresh every round by level 14. So you pick one or two go-to strikes, then load up on counters, boosts, and utilities.



Of course at this point the build is more about tons of maneuvers and less about the sword and board. But a sword and board character can perform quite well when he can spam high level maneuvers. If nothing else the diamond mind strikes would make the one handed weapon at least not suck, the healing strikes help keep you going, and all your counters protect you from bad things happening. Other perk: While doing this you're totally playing as Link an archtypical sword and boarder (elf boy with a fairy who tells him how to fight heck yeah)

[Mooncrow]

Nice, I think I prefer the second build for anything short of starting at level 20.  You're right, there are some nice Tiger Claw maneuvers you can pick up that way. 

[Seerow]

It just occured to me, when using a prestige class that grants maneuvers, do you get the ability to change out maneuvers known every other level, or is that a benefit reserved only for the base class?

I've always played it as the former, but I just realized I don't see anything in the RAW that supports it. And if that's the case, that's a pretty severe handicap for the Crusader who is stuck with the majority of his maneuvers being level 2.

[ImperatorK]

IIRC, it's stated in each classes Maneuvers class feature description, so I think it's base class levels only. But I might be wrong.

[Mooncrow]

It just occured to me, when using a prestige class that grants maneuvers, do you get the ability to change out maneuvers known every other level, or is that a benefit reserved only for the base class?

I've always played it as the former, but I just realized I don't see anything in the RAW that supports it. And if that's the case, that's a pretty severe handicap for the Crusader who is stuck with the majority of his maneuvers being level 2.

Hrm, I've always played that way as well, but it looks like by RAW you may be right.  Ugh. 

Oh, I also wanted to suggest looking at Snow Elf^Frost for your race - +2 Dex, -2 Cha - I think the only variant without a Con or Int penalty. 

[Basket Burner]

32 PB is indeed standard.

It depends on what you mean by "standard". 25 and 28 also seem pretty standard from what I've seen.

Standard = what is used by people that know what they are doing, and that promotes a decent and diverse meta.

Since 25 and 28 just say play a caster they can't be it.

[InnaBinder]

32 PB is indeed standard.

It depends on what you mean by "standard". 25 and 28 also seem pretty standard from what I've seen.

Standard = what is used by people that know what they are doing, and that promotes a decent and diverse meta.

Since 25 and 28 just say play a caster they can't be it.

That makes "standard" equivalent to "a minority," particularly if folks that don't play at the same level of lethality you've espoused are considered to not know what they're doing.  That's. . . an odd definition of "standard".

[Basket Burner]

Wrong on all counts. It has nothing to do with any aspect of my own games, and everything to do with the fact that low PB = play a SAD character = play a caster. Everyone knows this by now, which means that people know better, and therefore 32 is the standard, because it makes for a more diverse meta.

[InnaBinder]

  Okay, then.  Right.