Author Topic: Optimizing less effective combat styles  (Read 96596 times)

Offline littha

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #140 on: November 22, 2011, 04:29:20 PM »
I think Half Celestial/Fiend is more likley to be accepted but dealing with +4 LA will be a challenge.

Offline carnivore

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #141 on: November 22, 2011, 05:48:27 PM »
You could be any dragonblood race and take Draconic Wings... so Spellscales are on the table as well.  Are there others?  Sadly my usual method of flight would be those demonic wings that cost 10kgp and grant endless flight as a graft... obviously those won't work here.

JaronK
Spellscales are not a PHB race


can you post the Guidelines exactly as you want to see the Build?

How about this:

32pt Buy
Core Only Races(or more Strict: PHB only races)(this is ridiculous IMHO)
No Psionics (this is ridiculous IMHO, I can understand No Tashalatora)
No dragon material
No 3.0
No Multiclassing (this is ridiculous IMHO, Idiotic IMHO, I would not play in a Game like that, or else I would Play a Druid and say I was a Monk)


This is extremely Restrictive ... especially for a Weak Class that is Burdened with the Added Restrictions of a 3.0 Feat(VOP)

Is that what you are suggesting?

 :D

Offline JaronK

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #142 on: November 22, 2011, 06:05:52 PM »
Spellscales are not a PHB race

Neither are Raptorians or Dragonborn.  I would restrict it to PHB only, but I just don't think that's viable due to the lack of flight.

Quote
can you post the Guidelines exactly as you want to see the Build?

How about this:

32pt Buy
Core Only Races(or more Strict: PHB only races)(this is ridiculous IMHO)
No Psionics (this is ridiculous IMHO, I can understand No Tashalatora)
No dragon material
No 3.0
No Multiclassing (this is ridiculous IMHO, Idiotic IMHO, I would not play in a Game like that, or else I would Play a Druid and say I was a Monk)

If you could pull this off, my hat would be off to you sir!  But I'm not sure it's even doable due to the lack of flight.  Also, since BoED is obviously in play we're obviously not core only.  I dunno, I just don't think you can get away with PHB only.  But let's instead go with "no Level Adjust."  As for Monk only... it's kinda idiotic, but no multiclassing is a pretty common rule.  At the same time, be aware that games like that usually aren't as hard, so you don't need to go all out.

And let's allow 3.0 stuff if it's updated (BoED was, right)?  But no unupdated 3.0.  And no Dragon Compendium (I know it's a real book, but it's kinda like Dragon material.  Even though Unseelie Fey would really help here).

Quote
This is extremely Restrictive ... especially for a Weak Class that is Burdened with the Added Restrictions of a 3.0 Feat(VOP)

Is that what you are suggesting?

 :D

Yes.  Consider it a challenge.  If you can pull it off with PHB races, you win one internet as a bonus.  You don't need to be crazy powerful either... just good enough to not be a paint smear at high levels and to actually be useful in addition to surviving.

JaronK

Offline carnivore

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #143 on: November 22, 2011, 06:08:26 PM »
acceptable ... will start ... but since we are Using a VOP, how about Saint with or without LA Buy off?



 :D

Offline littha

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #144 on: November 22, 2011, 06:24:56 PM »
Well... Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold will definitely help with the enormous MAD on a monk... too bad the damage will suck even worse than usual.

Offline JaronK

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #145 on: November 22, 2011, 06:34:06 PM »
My first instinct is to say no to saint, due to the LA.  But then again... Saint would probably be allowed by someone who allowed VoP, right?  But let's avoid buyoff.  In fact, we should probably avoid Unearthed Arcana entirely.  So, your choice, but bonus points for avoiding LA entirely.

The idea is a build that would get by a strict DM, and yet still be serviceable in play.

If you do go with a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, let's avoid anything at all controversial.  So, no Sovereign Archetypes, no auto qualifying Improved Dragon Wings, no epic feats early.

If you pull it off under rules like this and it still gets banned from a campaign somewhere, ever, for being too powerful?  Then you win.

JaronK

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #146 on: November 22, 2011, 07:09:41 PM »
Monk 6/Psionic Fist 10/Saint 2/Monk+2? It's just three books, solo class and solo PrC and neatly solves most of the monk's problems by using a class *gasp* designed for Monks. Saint is there because it is strictly better than two levels of Monk.

You have forsaken the material world and have focused on meditation, awakening your mental energies. The fluff checks out. The only negative is DMs who have a knee-jerk reaction to psionics.
Hmm.

Offline JaronK

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2011, 07:48:41 PM »
But it's Psionic, and Psionics ARE TEH BROKENS!  Nothing can be balanced if it's Psionic!

...of course, some say that about VoP too.  But whatever.

JaronK

Offline weenog

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #148 on: November 22, 2011, 07:54:45 PM »
Make sure you max cross-class ranks in Use Psionic Device and load up on partially-charged dorjes.
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Offline hazard

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #149 on: November 22, 2011, 11:10:22 PM »
No bad weenog he who should not build monks shall not be mentioned or he might shower us with his leet monk skills.  And I don't think anyone here what's that.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #150 on: November 23, 2011, 12:12:16 AM »
So wait let me get this right.
Someone suggested the kick to the dicebag VoP.
Then someone said Core Only, no multiclassing, no variants, blah blah blah. sorry, I really don't care. There is barely 7 combat useful feats in core, let alone 11. 1 Base class and Core only? What the hell is there to build? Monk, Duelist, maybe a level of Walker, end of story. We've already got one such build up too, you're not going to do any better. I've got a better idea. Optimize VoP Monk. Not build me a 1-int-wizard, not build me the world's worst Druid, build something where your goal ISN'T the worst damn thing you can think of. Because this is build optimized VoP Monk, not a build challenge based off the hardest handicaps you can think of and then make fun of how badly it sucks afterwards.

Any Race, any official book, say PB32 because everyone love it, no spellcasting, no psionics, no truespeaking, not even meldshaping, really none of that alternatives to magic other than ToB. You need a bare minimum of 5 Monk levels (average number before PrCing out) and be centralized on Monk or at least be based off exploiting a Monk trait.

Like for example I wanted to focus on those two extra attacks though FoB. Not wanting to come off as too Roguish I avoid SA and instead capitalize on Iaijutsu Master, because a VoP Monk can own and FoB with Daggers. Not to mention Dark Moon Disciple makes damn near everyone Flat-footed against you. It compliments very well. I could start with 8 Charisma, assign the +2 from VoP to it and read a +4 Tome. I'm not Charisma based at all, hell it's only +9d6+18 per hit, but I am building off the Monk's FoB and using the Monk's AFC in order to use it. It's smart building and I'm not coming off like my PrC is the reason I'm useful. Opposed to extrema of say, posting a Bard/Sublime Chord that can use Unarmed Strikes.

In fact, come to think of it. I think like the Iaijutsu route. Daggers are piercing weapons, Dragonborn get their dive ability. If Dive & Battle Jump can be used together you've got triple charge damage, Iaijutsu, and Passive Way Tripping. I need to read up on it.

Edit
You can't jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent, nor can you effectively battle jump while under the influence of a fly or levitate spell or effect, as you have to hurl yourself down on your foe. ~ Battle Jump
Doesn't include mention of real flight, just the spells. Fly & Levitate are move of a ignore gravity effect, and you certainly can hurl your self downward in a dive. It's literately what you're doing to begin with. Looks like it would work.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:17:07 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline JaronK

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #151 on: November 23, 2011, 12:50:21 AM »
So wait let me get this right.
Someone suggested the kick to the dicebag VoP.
Then someone said Core Only, no multiclassing, no variants, blah blah blah. sorry, I really don't care.

Nobody said anything about core only.  PHB races only was tossed around for a moment, but it doesn't seem possible.  The idea here is to optimize a concept that a lot of people ask for... generally, it's a VoP Monk for a game that's kinda lower op.  And a lot of times they want it to be a pure Monk.  Besides, it's hardly difficult if we just go with something that starts out Monk and then goes straight into Unarmed Swordsage.

Anyway, the idea is to do it without LA.  Not PHB only.

JaronK

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #152 on: November 23, 2011, 01:08:43 AM »
So wait let me get this right.
Someone suggested the kick to the dicebag VoP.
Then someone said Core Only, no multiclassing, no variants, blah blah blah. sorry, I really don't care.

Nobody said anything about core only.  PHB races only was tossed around for a moment, but it doesn't seem possible.  The idea here is to optimize a concept that a lot of people ask for... generally, it's a VoP Monk for a game that's kinda lower op.  And a lot of times they want it to be a pure Monk.  Besides, it's hardly difficult if we just go with something that starts out Monk and then goes straight into Unarmed Swordsage.

Anyway, the idea is to do it without LA.  Not PHB only.
I recall someone Saint or not, and Saint really is right up VoPs valley. Really, what else are you going to do with or without LA? Dark Template < Dark Moon, Loth-Touch != Good, maybe Feral would work out but Pounce is HD based so it's ability score alterations there, dipping Barbarian once for Lion Totem is better. What's that leave? Mineral Warrior? Sounds like a down to earth Monk to me, like an earthbender :p

Note, my suggested build rules highlight an in theme concept. It's to say you could validate a dip into Swordsage for say Concentration to saves, but not validate being a Swordsage with five Monk levels. Same if you tried passing Hulking Hurler. You could go with the Iaijutsu Master for the reasons outlined above, and even Drunken Master on top of it. Now you're Jacky Chan, master of picking up objects and beating your opponent's face in with them in a Kung Fu manner while drunk. Idk if buying booze is acceptable to VoPers though so you may need some reflavoring there. But it's all within a Monkish theme, and directly built off a Monk ability.


Offline JaronK

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #153 on: November 23, 2011, 01:28:45 AM »
Saint seems relatively reasonable.  I'd say bonus points for not using LA, but Saint is acceptable if you need it.

Okay wait a minute.  We already want an improvised weapon guy... can't a VoP Drunken Master pick up random stuff and beat people with it?  Because that would be pretty interesting.  Except you'd have to count a bunch of liquor as a day's worth of rations...

JaronK

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #154 on: November 23, 2011, 04:50:01 AM »
Saint seems relatively reasonable.  I'd say bonus points for not using LA, but Saint is acceptable if you need it.

Okay wait a minute.  We already want an improvised weapon guy... can't a VoP Drunken Master pick up random stuff and beat people with it?  Because that would be pretty interesting.  Except you'd have to count a bunch of liquor as a day's worth of rations...
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There is kind of two ways to do this.
Only sport enough mental stats to drink since drinking lowers it anyway and go for broke, really. Broken bottles for Dive/Battle Jump. You can benefit from potions, why not from some one else's magical mug of endless drinking?

The other way is Wisdom focused. Saint's Wisdom as Insight to AC, Saint's +2 Wisdom, Saint's Holy Power's +4 to save DCs, Shiba Protector's Wisdom to Attack/Damage, and of course Stunning Fist loves Wisdom. I'm thinking of Cork Screw Rush here, you pick up a stool, leap into the air, and blammo. Trip, Bullrush to Stun, and even a just plain Stun for good measure, all on top of damage with a pretty good save DC (10+1/2 lvl+34 Wis+4) to use multiple times.

I should be doable too.
Drunken wants Dodge & Great Fortitude.
Shiba wants Iron Will, Combat Expertise, and Alertness.
Battle Jump is a must for damage and it's option for size increase (for IM-Bull/IM-Trip).
You also need Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper for charging and Improved Trip & Knock-Down for tripping.
Then of course Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty. 14 in all and you get 8 as a Human, 2 for Flaws, 2 from Monk (3rd is traded away), and 2 if you dip Fighter which is 14 as well. No Dragonborn though :(

Edit - Overwhelming Attack Monk gets a +4 bonus to Bull Rush if you intimidated them, drop trip for Frightful Presence & Imperious Command to focus more on the Bull Rush Stun ability.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:54:36 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #155 on: November 23, 2011, 11:09:32 AM »
I should be doable too.
Drunken wants Dodge & Great Fortitude.
Shiba wants Iron Will, Combat Expertise, and Alertness.
Battle Jump is a must for damage and it's option for size increase (for IM-Bull/IM-Trip).
You also need Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper for charging and Improved Trip & Knock-Down for tripping.
Then of course Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty. 14 in all and you get 8 as a Human, 2 for Flaws, 2 from Monk (3rd is traded away), and 2 if you dip Fighter which is 14 as well. No Dragonborn though :(

If you're already getting Great Fortitude and Power Attack, Fist of the Forest levels would be a no brainer.
Hmm.

Offline veekie

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #156 on: November 23, 2011, 12:09:55 PM »
Saint seems relatively reasonable.  I'd say bonus points for not using LA, but Saint is acceptable if you need it.

Okay wait a minute.  We already want an improvised weapon guy... can't a VoP Drunken Master pick up random stuff and beat people with it?  Because that would be pretty interesting.  Except you'd have to count a bunch of liquor as a day's worth of rations...

JaronK
Could be! Also the concept is entertaining in its own right. Holy boozehound.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #157 on: November 23, 2011, 12:38:52 PM »
Saint seems relatively reasonable.  I'd say bonus points for not using LA, but Saint is acceptable if you need it.

Okay wait a minute.  We already want an improvised weapon guy... can't a VoP Drunken Master pick up random stuff and beat people with it?  Because that would be pretty interesting.  Except you'd have to count a bunch of liquor as a day's worth of rations...

JaronK
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2011, 01:07:01 PM »
Holy Wandering Violent Hobos, Batman!

How is that any different from the norm?

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Optimizing less effective combat styles
« Reply #159 on: November 23, 2011, 01:09:02 PM »
Holy Wandering Violent Hobos, Batman!

How is that any different from the norm?
VOP makes Holy doubly applicable.  No, really.  Look it up.
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