Author Topic: Optimizing less effective combat styles (Read 96598 times)

Basket Burner · « **Reply #160 on:** November 23, 2011, 01:09:59 PM »

Quote from: InnaBinder on November 23, 2011, 01:09:02 PM

Quote from: Basket Burner on November 23, 2011, 01:07:01 PM
Quote from: InnaBinder on November 23, 2011, 12:38:52 PM
Holy Wandering Violent Hobos, Batman!

How is that any different from the norm?
VOP makes Holy doubly applicable. No, really. Look it up.

I see what you did there...

JaronK · « **Reply #161 on:** November 23, 2011, 01:58:54 PM »

Okay, even if it wasn't originally what I was trying for (the singleclassed VoP Monk that so many people want to see work) I think a Drunken Master VoP Monk has so much potential to be hilariously fun that we need to make this work. We do have to say that his booze counts as part of his "day's rations" that he's allowed to bring, but it is his drink of choice so that seems somewhat reasonable. Or, since you can benefit from "potions" that the party has, maybe this guy just needs Leadership so his cohort can brew him booze. Or just a dwarf in the party.

JaronK

littha · « **Reply #162 on:** November 23, 2011, 02:02:33 PM »

I wonder if you can count the booze as your days rations and then play an elan or warforged so you don't need the food.

InnaBinder · « **Reply #163 on:** November 23, 2011, 02:12:32 PM »

Quote from: littha on November 23, 2011, 02:02:33 PM

I wonder if you can count the booze as your days rations and then play an elan or warforged so you don't need the food.

Elan would open up possibilities for Rapidstrike, while Warforged get those built-in Slams and such. . . .

carnivore · « **Reply #164 on:** November 23, 2011, 02:18:30 PM »

Slams and Rapid Strike dont stack with Flurry ..... might think about using ACF Decisive Strike instead... but then you still only get a single attack.

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #165 on:** November 23, 2011, 03:07:50 PM »

Decisive Strike tends to work best for AoO builds. The double damage carries over to them.

JaronK · « **Reply #166 on:** November 23, 2011, 03:08:58 PM »

Could he fight with a ladder or something? Don't improvised weapons count as simple? If so he'd have sufficient reach for AoOs, if he wanted to go that route.

JaronK

carnivore · « **Reply #167 on:** November 23, 2011, 03:15:38 PM »

an Interesting Note.... Drunken Masters still have the -4 Nonproficency Penalty to Attack with Improvised Weapons as everyone else, and they are not considered Simple Weapons

carnivore · « **Reply #168 on:** November 23, 2011, 08:07:32 PM »

heres my VOP-Monk try:

PHB Race
32pt buy

Human
Monk(Cobra Strike) 11/ Fighter 1/ Warblade 2/ Pious Templar 4/ Saint 2

Attributes:

10 Str(10)
20 Dex(14 +6 VOP)
16 Con(12+2 racial +2 VOP)
12 Int(12)
30 Wis(16+2 racial+4 lvl +8 VOP)
24 Cha(14+4 racial +6 VOP)

(click to show/hide)

Combat Abillities:

BAB +15 +10 Wis+5 Insight +5 Enhancement +1 WF +1 Bless= +37 Attack

Full Attack + Greater Flurry
+37/+37/+37/+32/+27/+22

+5 additional Attacks @+37 Robilars Gambit

Damage:
2d10(ave 11) +5 Insight +5 Enhancement +2 WSpl = 23 Damage per Hit

Martial Manuvers:
as Warblade 10th lvl , 8 Known, 4 Readied, 2 Stances+ Shadow Stride

Defensive Abilities:
AC 52(AC 48 with Robilars Gambit)

(click to show/hide)

50% Miss chance... Word Given Form
DR 10/Evil
Evasion
Mettle
Fast Healing 10
Regeneration 20/Hour
Immune acid
Immune cold
Immune electricity
Immune petrification
Resist Fire 15
Resist Sonic 15

vs Evil foes, all combat abilities are Increased greatly(Offense and Defense)

great out of Combat abilities, absolutely nothing required...

skydragonknight · « **Reply #169 on:** November 23, 2011, 09:14:38 PM »

Great defenses, though the damage seems a bit low. What the avg. damage vs. evil?

carnivore · « **Reply #170 on:** November 23, 2011, 09:33:41 PM »

what do you expect ... it is a Monk Build ... with a VOP

the goal of this ... was to make a Build that achieves the Intended Purpose of a Monk as per PHB:

Quote from: PHB

The monk functions best as an opportunistic combatant, using her speed to get into and out of combat quickly rather than engaging in prolonged melees. She also makes an excellent scout, particularly if she focuses her skill selection on stealth.

a Monk should never be the "Primary" combatant for a party

as for vs EVIL:

+1d6 damage attacks(Saint)
+2d6 points of extra holy damage to evil creatures(Holy Ki Strike)
+Golden Ice touch

if they touch him with Natural Weapons, they take 1d6 damage

double-strength magic circle against evil(+4 Deflection +4 resistance Saves) and as a lesser globe of invulnerability

this is not even counting any Martial Manuvers used..... nor Paladin Spells, nor Smite

lans · « **Reply #171 on:** November 23, 2011, 11:12:47 PM »

Word Given Form isn't a feat. its a combat style or something.

skydragonknight · « **Reply #172 on:** November 24, 2011, 02:00:46 AM »

Quote from: lans on November 23, 2011, 11:12:47 PM

Word Given Form isn't a feat. its a combat style or something.

Replace it with Elusive Target, since you have the pre-reqs already?

SorO_Lost · « **Reply #173 on:** November 24, 2011, 03:58:54 AM »

Ok, here is my build submission.
It is based around that Triptastic Passive Way Monk concept and as such doesn't make use of Drunken Master.
Maybe I'll post one of those later (doubt it).

Invitae Sordibus

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

Race: Human
Class: Monk 6 / Fighter 2 / Shiba Protector 1 / Factotum 3 / Barbarian 1 / Iaijutsu Master 5 / Saint 2
Ability Scores (pb 36, went a little over with an accidental 14s all in the math)
	Str 32 (+11) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 5 (level) + 8 (enhancement)
	Dex 19 (+ 4) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent)
	Con 19 (+ 4) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent)
	Int 23 (+ 6) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 4 (enhancement)
	Wis 25 (+ 7) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enhancement)
	Cha 21 (+ 5) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 2 (enhancement)
ACFs
	Monk 1: Passive Way[sup]UA[/sup]: Gain Combat Expertise. Lose bonus feat.
	Monk 2: Passive Way[sup]UA[/sup]: Gain Improved Trip. Lose bonus feat.
	Monk 4: Wall Walker[sup]DS[/sup] Run 20ft on walls without a Climb check. Lose Slow Fall.
	Monk 4: Holy Strike[sup]CC[/sup]: Good aligned attacks, +1d6 damage vs evil creatures. Lose Ki Strike (magic).
	Monk 6: Broken One[sup]FR-COV[/sup]: Tenacious Tracker, gain Track & Survival as a class skill. Lose Bonus Feat (it's only improved feint).
	Monk 6: Dark Moon Disciple[sup]FR:CoV:Web[/sup]: Shadow Blend, gain Total-Concealment if you're not in the sunlight. Lose Wholeness Of Body.
	Monk 6: Passive Way[sup]UA[/sup]: Passive Way, +4 to Trip checks if foe is Flat-Footed.
	Barbarian 1: Lion Totam[sup]CC[/sup]: Gain Pounce. Lose Fast Movement.
	Barbarian 1: Whirling Frenzy[sup]UA[/sup]: +4 Str, +2 AC/Refl, +1 attack per round but all attacks have -2 to hit, no note stating Full-Attack is required. Lose Rage.
Feats
	Flaw: Weak Will
	Flaw Bonus: Iron Will
	Flaw: Weak Fortitude
	Flaw Bonus: Alertness
	Human: Battle Jump
	1st: Power Attack
	Bonus(monk1): Improved Unarmed Strike
	Bonus(monk1): Combat Expertise
	Bonus(monk2): Improved Trip
	3rd: Improved Bull Rush
	Bonus(fht1): Improved Initiative
	Bonus(fht2): Quick Draw
	6th: Shock Trooper
	Bonus (monk6): Track
	9th: Knock Down
	12th: Weapon Focus(kitana)
	15th: Sacred Vow
	Bonus(iai2): Skill Focus(iaijutsu strike)
	18th: Vow Of Poverty
	Bonus(vop18): Nymph's Kiss
	Bonus(vop20): Touch of Golden Ice
Skills
	Ugh, I so don't want to do this part.
		Monk: 54 = (4+2+1*(6+3))
		Fighter: 10 = (2+2+1*2)
		Shiba Protector: 5 = (2+2+1*1)
		Factotum: 27 = (6+2+1*9)
		Barbarian: 6 = (4+1+1*1)
		Iaijutsu Master: 35 = (4+2+1*5)
	Equals 137 skill points, [b]you[/b] can decide how they are spent.	
Traits
	Damage Reduction 5/Evil.
	Regeneration 5(Good & Chaotic bypasses)
	Fast Healing 9
	Resistance to Fire and Sonic 15
	Evasion, True Seeing, Tongues, Keen Vision, +4 on saves vs poison.
	Double Power Magic Circle Against Evil (cl 18)
		+4 Resistance to saves and +4 deflection to AC against evil creatures.
		Immune to mental control effects from evil creatures.
		Cannot be physically be touched by an evil summoned barring an SR check.
	Immunities
		Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fear Effects, Sicken, Nauseated, 
		Fatigued, Exhaustion, Confusion, Petrification, Detect Thoughts, 
		Discern Lies, breath related effects, does not need to eat or drink, 
		anything that detects his alignment, 3rd level or lower spells, and 
		is under the effects of Freedom of Movement. Additionally anything 
		requiring a target unless forced to stand in sunlight.
Numbers
	AC 49 = 10 (base) + 10 (sacred) + 3 (deflection) + 2 (natural) + 4 (dex) + 7 (wis:monk) + 7 (wis:insight) + 6 (int: see notes)
	Fort +18 = 5 (monk) + 3 (fht) + 2 (shiba) + 1 (fact) + 2 (barb) + 1 (iai) + 3 (resistance) + 4 (con) + -3 (flaw)
	Relf +19 = 5 (monk) + 0 (fht) + 0 (shiba) + 3 (fact) + 0 (barb) + 4 (iai) + 3 (resistance) + 4 (dex)
	Will +20 = 5 (monk) + 0 (fht) + 2 (shiba) + 1 (fact) + 0 (barb) + 1 (iai) + 3 (resistance) + 7 (wis) + -3 (flaw) + 2 (feat) + 2 (shiver)
	Initiative +19 = 4 (dex) + 6 (int) + 5 (cha) + 4 (feat)
	BAB +14 = 4 (monk) + 2 (fht) + 0 (shiba) + 2 (fact) + 1 (barb) + 5 (iai)
		Trip +29 = 11 (str) + 6 (int) + 4 (feat) + 4 (passive way) + 4 (battle jump)
	Base Attack +39/+34/+29 = 14 (bab) + 11 (str) + 7 (wis) + 5 (exalted strike) + 2 (flat-footed foes)
	Base Damage +25 = 11 (str) + 7 (wis) + 5 (exalted strike) + 2 (shrine)
	Bonus Damage
		+1d6 if evil / +1d8 if evil outsider or undead (saint)
		+2d6 if chaotic outsider (tabjari)
		+9d6+45 (iaijutsu strike)
		Ravaged by Golden Ice if evil (touch of golden ice)
	Normal Attack
		Battle Jump powered Charge using Flurry of Blows with Quick Drawn Daggers
		+37/+37/+32/+27 melee (2d4+50 + bonus damage & free trip attempt)
		Average 3 hits vs AC 35 for 394.5 damage ignoring alignment. ~Kills a Balor/Pit Fiend in one round.
			If "raging": +37/+37/+37/+32/+27 melee (2d4+54 + bonus damage & free trip attempt with a +2 bonus)
Notes
	VoPers may beg for regents and use another person's potions but may never 
	gain the benefit of wearing a magical item. Additionally there is no such 
	ruling barring the use of using spells or begging for spells that give 
	you various bonuses. This build assumes the Monk begs daily for a nonmagical
	Kitana and returns it at night and he has either asked for Wish or a patron 
	Cleric saw fit to forward those thousands of gold in donations towards 
	keeping their biggest detonator alive for future profits.

	Finally, Magical Location benefits have a gold value for balance. But you 
	don't spend gold to obtain their bonuses nor do you own the location any 
	more than planting a flag in the ground and claiming it's yours, IE no 
	monetary transaction involved. This Monk has the benefits of the following 
	locations: Shriver, Tabjari, Shrine Of The Weapon Master, and the Timeless 
	Fountain. The first two last 99 days and are renewed by Lawful acts, the 
	latter two last one year and must be renewed on site.

	Don't forget, this holy saint is a night owl and almost always has Total 
	Concealment against his enemies. That means targeted effects can't hit him 
	and he has Evasion with a +19 bonus to avoid many area effects. Like wise 
	against attacks that do target his square (such as a trap) he has a 50% 
	chance of being missed before his 49 AC is checked. Only effects like 
	Blindsight (and not True Seeing) can overcome this effect.

skydragonknight · « **Reply #174 on:** November 24, 2011, 05:14:12 AM »

Nice, although Trip doesn't use BAB. Though, on the plus side, they don't use their BAB either so lacking full BAB is not a detriment.

carnivore · « **Reply #175 on:** November 24, 2011, 05:43:08 AM »

Quote from: lans on November 23, 2011, 11:12:47 PM

Word Given Form isn't a feat. its a combat style or something.

you are awesome ... I wasnt even paying attention, thanks

Quote from: skydragonknight on November 24, 2011, 02:00:46 AM

Replace it with Elusive Target, since you have the pre-reqs already?

excellent idea ...... will do .... thanks also

Tshern · « **Reply #176 on:** November 24, 2011, 08:27:40 PM »

Quote from: SorO_Lost on November 24, 2011, 03:58:54 AM

Ok, here is my build submission.
It is based around that Triptastic Passive Way Monk concept and as such doesn't make use of Drunken Master.
Maybe I'll post one of those later (doubt it).

Invitae Sordibus
(click to show/hide)
Code: [Select]
Race: Human Class: Monk 6 / Fighter 2 / Shiba Protector 1 / Factotum 3 / Barbarian 1 / Iaijutsu Master 5 / Saint 2 Ability Scores (pb 36, went a little over with an accidental 14s all in the math) Str 32 (+11) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 5 (level) + 8 (enhancement) Dex 19 (+ 4) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) Con 19 (+ 4) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) Int 23 (+ 6) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 4 (enhancement) Wis 25 (+ 7) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enhancement) Cha 21 (+ 5) = 14 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 2 (enhancement) ACFs Monk 1: Passive Way[sup]UA[/sup]: Gain Combat Expertise. Lose bonus feat. Monk 2: Passive Way[sup]UA[/sup]: Gain Improved Trip. Lose bonus feat. Monk 4: Wall Walker[sup]DS[/sup] Run 20ft on walls without a Climb check. Lose Slow Fall. Monk 4: Holy Strike[sup]CC[/sup]: Good aligned attacks, +1d6 damage vs evil creatures. Lose Ki Strike (magic). Monk 6: Broken One[sup]FR-COV[/sup]: Tenacious Tracker, gain Track & Survival as a class skill. Lose Bonus Feat (it's only improved feint). Monk 6: Dark Moon Disciple[sup]FR:CoV:Web[/sup]: Shadow Blend, gain Total-Concealment if you're not in the sunlight. Lose Wholeness Of Body. Monk 6: Passive Way[sup]UA[/sup]: Passive Way, +4 to Trip checks if foe is Flat-Footed. Barbarian 1: Lion Totam[sup]CC[/sup]: Gain Pounce. Lose Fast Movement. Barbarian 1: Whirling Frenzy[sup]UA[/sup]: +4 Str, +2 AC/Refl, +1 attack per round but all attacks have -2 to hit, no note stating Full-Attack is required. Lose Rage. Feats Flaw: Weak Will Flaw Bonus: Iron Will Flaw: Weak Fortitude Flaw Bonus: Alertness Human: Battle Jump 1st: Power Attack Bonus(monk1): Improved Unarmed Strike Bonus(monk1): Combat Expertise Bonus(monk2): Improved Trip 3rd: Improved Bull Rush Bonus(fht1): Improved Initiative Bonus(fht2): Quick Draw 6th: Shock Trooper Bonus (monk6): Track 9th: Knock Down 12th: Weapon Focus(kitana) 15th: Sacred Vow Bonus(iai2): Skill Focus(iaijutsu strike) 18th: Vow Of Poverty Bonus(vop18): Nymph's Kiss Bonus(vop20): Touch of Golden Ice Skills Ugh, I so don't want to do this part. Monk: 54 = (4+2+1*(6+3)) Fighter: 10 = (2+2+1*2) Shiba Protector: 5 = (2+2+1*1) Factotum: 27 = (6+2+1*9) Barbarian: 6 = (4+1+1*1) Iaijutsu Master: 35 = (4+2+1*5) Equals 137 skill points, [b]you[/b] can decide how they are spent. Traits Damage Reduction 5/Evil. Regeneration 5(Good & Chaotic bypasses) Fast Healing 9 Resistance to Fire and Sonic 15 Evasion, True Seeing, Tongues, Keen Vision, +4 on saves vs poison. Double Power Magic Circle Against Evil (cl 18) +4 Resistance to saves and +4 deflection to AC against evil creatures. Immune to mental control effects from evil creatures. Cannot be physically be touched by an evil summoned barring an SR check. Immunities Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fear Effects, Sicken, Nauseated, Fatigued, Exhaustion, Confusion, Petrification, Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, breath related effects, does not need to eat or drink, anything that detects his alignment, 3rd level or lower spells, and is under the effects of Freedom of Movement. Additionally anything requiring a target unless forced to stand in sunlight. Numbers AC 49 = 10 (base) + 10 (sacred) + 3 (deflection) + 2 (natural) + 4 (dex) + 7 (wis:monk) + 7 (wis:insight) + 6 (int: see notes) Fort +18 = 5 (monk) + 3 (fht) + 2 (shiba) + 1 (fact) + 2 (barb) + 1 (iai) + 3 (resistance) + 4 (con) + -3 (flaw) Relf +19 = 5 (monk) + 0 (fht) + 0 (shiba) + 3 (fact) + 0 (barb) + 4 (iai) + 3 (resistance) + 4 (dex) Will +20 = 5 (monk) + 0 (fht) + 2 (shiba) + 1 (fact) + 0 (barb) + 1 (iai) + 3 (resistance) + 7 (wis) + -3 (flaw) + 2 (feat) + 2 (shiver) Initiative +19 = 4 (dex) + 6 (int) + 5 (cha) + 4 (feat) BAB +14 = 4 (monk) + 2 (fht) + 0 (shiba) + 2 (fact) + 1 (barb) + 5 (iai) Trip +29 = 11 (str) + 6 (int) + 4 (feat) + 4 (passive way) + 4 (battle jump) Base Attack +39/+34/+29 = 14 (bab) + 11 (str) + 7 (wis) + 5 (exalted strike) + 2 (flat-footed foes) Base Damage +25 = 11 (str) + 7 (wis) + 5 (exalted strike) + 2 (shrine) Bonus Damage +1d6 if evil / +1d8 if evil outsider or undead (saint) +2d6 if chaotic outsider (tabjari) +9d6+45 (iaijutsu strike) Ravaged by Golden Ice if evil (touch of golden ice) Normal Attack Battle Jump powered Charge using Flurry of Blows with Quick Drawn Daggers +37/+37/+32/+27 melee (2d4+50 + bonus damage & free trip attempt) Average 3 hits vs AC 35 for 394.5 damage ignoring alignment. ~Kills a Balor/Pit Fiend in one round. If "raging": +37/+37/+37/+32/+27 melee (2d4+54 + bonus damage & free trip attempt with a +2 bonus) Notes VoPers may beg for regents and use another person's potions but may never gain the benefit of wearing a magical item. Additionally there is no such ruling barring the use of using spells or begging for spells that give you various bonuses. This build assumes the Monk begs daily for a nonmagical Kitana and returns it at night and he has either asked for Wish or a patron Cleric saw fit to forward those thousands of gold in donations towards keeping their biggest detonator alive for future profits. Finally, Magical Location benefits have a gold value for balance. But you don't spend gold to obtain their bonuses nor do you own the location any more than planting a flag in the ground and claiming it's yours, IE no monetary transaction involved. This Monk has the benefits of the following locations: Shriver, Tabjari, Shrine Of The Weapon Master, and the Timeless Fountain. The first two last 99 days and are renewed by Lawful acts, the latter two last one year and must be renewed on site. Don't forget, this holy saint is a night owl and almost always has Total Concealment against his enemies. That means targeted effects can't hit him and he has Evasion with a +19 bonus to avoid many area effects. Like wise against attacks that do target his square (such as a trap) he has a 50% chance of being missed before his 49 AC is checked. Only effects like Blindsight (and not True Seeing) can overcome this effect.

+5 inherent bonus to all stats? 137.5k a pop, so you're way over 760k. Also, how do you intend to use them when you have Vow of Poverty? You could get those from spells, but that's still well over your WBL and someone tossing 150k XP for your inherents is a stupid assumption.

Are you using the Hit and Run Fighter variant? Might be worthwhile.

Edit: A question: Can you worship Shar and belong to the Monks of Dark Moon and still be a Saint?

skydragonknight · « **Reply #177 on:** November 24, 2011, 09:07:30 PM »

Quote from: Tshern on November 24, 2011, 08:27:40 PM

Edit: A question: Can you worship Shar and belong to the Monks of Dark Moon and still be a Saint?

Perhaps a Boondock Saint?

carnivore · « **Reply #178 on:** November 24, 2011, 09:35:09 PM »

it appears he is going with a Late-Entry VOP ... however at 18th, the amount you can spend is only 440000gp thus the Maximum quantity of Inherent Bonuses = +16(max +5 to any one stat)

lans · « **Reply #179 on:** November 24, 2011, 10:58:19 PM »

Theirs a cheap graft that gives a +4 inherent boost to strength.
Fiend folio, Undead arm grafts cost of 40k. Other than your main stat you only need a +4 inherent boost.

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Author Topic: Optimizing less effective combat styles (Read 96598 times)