Author Topic: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?  (Read 42329 times)

Offline nijineko

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #140 on: November 15, 2012, 04:59:22 PM »
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excellent points. and so very well stated! :clap (clarity in writing does not seem to be a strength of mine lately. with which flaw i seem to be annoying certain peoples. =P sorry, if that is the case.)

my comments were, in fact, aimed at the general concept rather than at the specific and absolutely real and valid experiences of waazraath. in my personal experience, it can take as much as 30-60 minutes to completely prep for a high level group, etc, etc.. i should also have mentioned that on occasion it does take me longer, but that is my average. i have also been playing d&d and other rpg systems for over 25 years, which may have something to do with why my experiences have been the way they are recently.

i think it is also a valid point that there is usually less opportunity for rocket tag at lower levels, though even there it can exist. and there certainly is a tendency towards it at higher levels. again, my comments were intended to be aimed at the general concept, rather than the specific experiences of waazraath. over the years, i have evolved methods and tactics whereby i can let the players have seriously powerful-everyone-braces-for-rocket-tag stuff, and still pull off encounters and adventures without it actually turning into rocket-tag. which i attempted to give a couple of examples of, but were likely also poorly written.

i would very much enjoy sitting and discussing worldbuilding with waazraath, a topic which is of deep and abiding interest to me. i would have to opt for a juicebar, as i have never had alcohol in my life.

despite my poor showing in phrasing my comments to be easily understood as to what i actually meant (at least, in writing - i tend to be better at public speaking than writing), everyone who has actually gamed with me in person comes back to me for advice on plot twists, tricks, possible resolutions to oddball situations that the players/dm has gotten into, and backstory brainstorming for individuals, groups, organizations, cultures, nations, and on up. i have been successfully giving useful dm advice and brainstorming sessions for around 15 years now. several of my dms come to me for help with their other groups which i am not a part of on a regular basis.

it seems that i just suck at writing. *^¬^*

Offline Captnq

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #141 on: November 16, 2012, 11:26:42 PM »
30 to 60 minutes of prep time?

I just kinda clear my throat and speak in a bad British accent for about ten seconds before I get going.

(Hello? Hello? Hello? 'ello? 'ello! Got it. Let's get going. When last we left our intrepid adventurers...)

Out of curiousity, what does the DM have to do with this? The question is "Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?" Not, "Why a desire to RUN an especially low-op game.?" DM's might want others to play low-op, but I think the question is directed at players who choose to play low op. A DM can want low or high op, but ultimately, it's up to the player. You can't exactly FORCE a Player to min/max.

Just about all my players start out low-op, but always turn into high-op, simply because the game requires it. The monk was fairly boring for a long time, then got sick of being left in the dust. One extremely tweeked out set of equipment later and some wild PrCs levels, bam! The monk turns into a killing machine. I had a chance to ask them yesterday and it boiled down to, "We like to feel like we earned it." Sure, the rules say you can have "blank" at level X, but they find it more satisfying to start off with a "normal" PC at level one then work their way up.

One comment, we had someone play with us for a short time period who wanted to start off at level one as a wild combo of templates for the starting race and also wanted to be the child of Elminster. I mean, she was a desert dwelling half dragon water-some race. I forget. Ya know what? I ran with it, cause she was dating one of the better players.

Her High-op plan was to learn how to become a dragon. Why? Because dragons are cool. I believe after 4 sessions we kinda just stopped asking them to come back. After killing the head of the party accidentally, choosing an alignment that was the complete opposite of how she was playing, and basically not getting anything with the game, it seemed for the best.

Players like that, who "try" to munchkin, but wind up just pissing everyone off in an attempt to be "cool", give High-op people get a bad rep.

So, there's two reason. Most High-op players come across as idiots. Low-op players feel like they paid their dues and thus have earned their superior stats.

I'm not saying all High-op players are idiots. I'm saying we only know of one "good" munchkin player. The rest of them are just annoying. (Ever met anyone who tried to munchkin Macho Women With Guns? And then LOSE? It's just sad...)
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #142 on: November 16, 2012, 11:42:06 PM »
There are no good munchkins. Cheating is bad.
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Offline Shadowknight12

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #143 on: November 17, 2012, 12:05:08 AM »
/facepalm

It might be more constructive if, instead of drawing lines in the sand and pointing fingers, we started, I dunno, being okay with the fact that other people play games differently than us.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #144 on: November 17, 2012, 12:31:25 AM »
Sorry Shadowknight. On BG's forums they use very specific definitions for "min/maxer", "optimiser", and "munchkin", ones that aren't really shared by others. On these boards, "munchkin" is used exclusively for breaking the rules (at least by people who have been here for a while and know about the lingo... sort of a self-feeding loop, that). Cheating, of course, is always bad, because then one is playing a different game from the one agreed upon by the table.

That's what Imperator was referring to, and I doubt anybody could disagree that breaking the rules that the table agreed upon is a bad thing.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 12:32:58 AM by FlaminCows »

Offline Solo

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #145 on: November 17, 2012, 12:37:09 AM »
/facepalm

It might be more constructive if, instead of drawing lines in the sand and pointing fingers, we started, I dunno, being okay with the fact that other people play games differently than us.
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Offline Shadowknight12

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2012, 12:40:06 AM »
I don't really share the idea that cheating is bad. The only part of cheating that is bad is betraying the trust that someone else has placed on you (in this case, the trust that you'll play by the rules). If that aspect of cheating is removed, then there's nothing wrong with cheating. For example, everyone at the table might agree to break this or that rule, or to let Bob individually break that other rule because he hates it and nobody else really cares. I know I don't really care if a player says "hey, mind if we do away with grapple rules? I hate those" or "Hey, mind if I add a +2 to Dex to my character so I can qualify for TWF? I can't really make my build work otherwise" or even "Hey, can I get Lightning Bolt as a spell-like ability X/day?" because, really, if nobody else at the table has a problem with it (and in most cases, why should they?), then cheating is perfectly fine.

The rules exist to serve the people at the table, not the other way around.

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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #147 on: November 17, 2012, 12:48:31 AM »
I don't really share the idea that cheating is bad. The only part of cheating that is bad is betraying the trust that someone else has placed on you (in this case, the trust that you'll play by the rules). If that aspect of cheating is removed, then there's nothing wrong with cheating. For example, everyone at the table might agree to break this or that rule, or to let Bob individually break that other rule because he hates it and nobody else really cares. I know I don't really care if a player says "hey, mind if we do away with grapple rules? I hate those" or "Hey, mind if I add a +2 to Dex to my character so I can qualify for TWF? I can't really make my build work otherwise" or even "Hey, can I get Lightning Bolt as a spell-like ability X/day?" because, really, if nobody else at the table has a problem with it (and in most cases, why should they?), then cheating is perfectly fine.

The rules exist to serve the people at the table, not the other way around.

That is houseruling, not cheating. Remember, very specific terms. If everybody agrees that a certain rule works differently, that is a house rule. If one player lies about what the rules say so he can gain an advantage, that is being a munchkin. Not the same thing.

Offline Shadowknight12

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #148 on: November 17, 2012, 12:53:29 AM »
That is houseruling, not cheating. Remember, very specific terms. If everybody agrees that a certain rule works differently, that is a house rule. If one player lies about what the rules say so he can gain an advantage, that is being a munchkin. Not the same thing.

I guess at the end of the day I'm not that worked up about full-on cheating either. It really depends on what the player cheated about and what actual harm it did.

And really, with this "very specific terms" brou-haha, what happens if the player cheats, I as the DM find out about it and I'm cool with it? Does the player suddenly stop being a munchkin because it's no longer cheating but houseruling?

Not to disparage the local lingo, but it all sounds like overreaction to me.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #149 on: November 17, 2012, 01:11:10 AM »
The definition of Munchkin is cheater and asshole, so it's obviously a negative term on this boards. Cheating is already very asshole-ish, but if for some weird reason you're totally okay with it then no, technically you don't have to call that player a munchkin if he wasn't an asshole cheater. OTOH, if he wasn't an asshole but you simply retconed his cheating as a houserule, then yes, he was still a munchkin.
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #150 on: November 17, 2012, 01:13:57 AM »
That is houseruling, not cheating. Remember, very specific terms. If everybody agrees that a certain rule works differently, that is a house rule. If one player lies about what the rules say so he can gain an advantage, that is being a munchkin. Not the same thing.

I guess at the end of the day I'm not that worked up about full-on cheating either. It really depends on what the player cheated about and what actual harm it did.

And really, with this "very specific terms" brou-haha, what happens if the player cheats, I as the DM find out about it and I'm cool with it? Does the player suddenly stop being a munchkin because it's no longer cheating but houseruling?

Not to disparage the local lingo, but it all sounds like overreaction to me.

If you as a DM make a ruling it becomes the rule from that point forward. The player is still a munchkin, because he already demonstrated that he is willing to break the rules to "win" the game. To stop being a munchkin is not to change the rules but to change the interaction, namely, to apologise and from then on following the rules and, if one wants the rules to work differently, bringing it up with the group first.

While to you the reaction to cheating sounds like overreaction, to others your reaction to their reaction sounds like overreaction. Seriously, people have every right to expect people to play fair. Its a matter of trust, which you already mentioned. Right now, you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing: namely, not being okay with the fact that other people play games differently from you. That other people expect their group not to cheat.

Cheating is always wrong by your own definition, incidentally. Accepting other play styles by necessity means conforming to their rules while you're at their table. Otherwise, you're not really accepting it at all.

Offline Shadowknight12

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #151 on: November 17, 2012, 01:22:58 AM »
The definition of Munchkin is cheater and asshole, so it's obviously a negative term on this boards. Cheating is already very asshole-ish, but if for some weird reason you're totally okay with it then no, technically you don't have to call that player a munchkin if he wasn't an asshole cheater. OTOH, if he wasn't an asshole but you simply retconed his cheating as a houserule, then yes, he was still a munchkin.

But if I retconned his cheating as a houserule, it's no longer a problem. So he's still a munchkin, which is a negative term, even if he's not causing problems any longer?

If you as a DM make a ruling it becomes the rule from that point forward. The player is still a munchkin, because he already demonstrated that he is willing to break the rules to "win" the game. To stop being a munchkin is not to change the rules but to change the interaction, namely, to apologise and from then on following the rules and, if one wants the rules to work differently, bringing it up with the group first.

While to you the reaction to cheating sounds like overreaction, to others your reaction to their reaction sounds like overreaction. Seriously, people have every right to expect people to play fair. Its a matter of trust, which you already mentioned. Right now, you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing: namely, not being okay with the fact that other people play games differently from you. That other people expect their group not to cheat.

Cheating is always wrong by your own definition, incidentally. Accepting other play styles by necessity means conforming to their rules while you're at their table. Otherwise, you're not really accepting it at all.

Well, I fail to see where I'm not accepting other people's playstyles, the only value judgement I made was "sounds like overreaction" which is still a far cry from "There are no good X type of players" and "X type of player is an asshole" and other similar disparaging remarks. So while you do have a point that I could've phrased my earlier remark better, it's still not as bad as the attitude I was commenting on earlier.

I am accepting of people who scorn at munchkins (otherwise I'd have said something along the lines of "That's unacceptable"), I'm merely genuinely puzzled as to why it's a big deal, where's the necessity to bear such outward scorn and how does the logic behind the very specific terms work, that's all.

Offline Arturick

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #152 on: November 17, 2012, 01:35:14 AM »
Shadowknight12,

You've brought up some points that I find interesting, but which are well outside the topic of the thread.  Perhaps you should gather your thoughts on this tangent and start a new post, which I think I'd consider participating in.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #153 on: November 17, 2012, 01:42:21 AM »
I am accepting of people who scorn at munchkins (otherwise I'd have said something along the lines of "That's unacceptable")

Actually, you did exactly that. See:
/facepalm

It might be more constructive if, instead of drawing lines in the sand and pointing fingers, we started, I dunno, being okay with the fact that other people play games differently than us.
Facepalming at somebody is something along the lines of "that's unacceptable". When you facepalm at someone, you are making a value judgement of what they have said.

Offline Shadowknight12

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #154 on: November 17, 2012, 01:49:20 AM »
Facepalming at somebody is something along the lines of "that's unacceptable". When you facepalm at someone, you are making a value judgement of what they have said.

Ah, my mistake. I should've been more clear. What I was trying to convey was "This attitude, which I've encountered before and now I encounter again, greatly confuses me." The facepalm comes more specifically from the "now I encounter again" part.

Shadowknight12,

You've brought up some points that I find interesting, but which are well outside the topic of the thread.  Perhaps you should gather your thoughts on this tangent and start a new post, which I think I'd consider participating in.

Good point.

Done.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 01:50:56 AM by Shadowknight12 »

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #155 on: November 17, 2012, 01:53:16 AM »
Quote
So he's still a munchkin, which is a negative term, even if he's not causing problems any longer?
He did it once, he can do it again.
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