Author Topic: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?  (Read 42335 times)

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #120 on: November 14, 2012, 10:31:06 AM »
Here's support for Waazraath's statement: I agree with him. I had very similar experiences.
And really, for me common sense is good enough as an argument.
Besides, Waazraath didn't even talk about his experiences. He made a statement. nothing that Nijineko said invalidates Waazraath's statement.

It's like me saying "I hit myself on the big toe. It hurts like hell" and you responding "I disagree, I hit myself on the big toe once and it didn't hurt at all". just because it didn't hurt you doesn't mean it didn't hurt me.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 11:38:24 AM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #121 on: November 14, 2012, 12:47:07 PM »
It is not like that. It is like Waazraath saying "any impact to the big toe will always cause immediate extreme pain" and nijineko saying "I disagree, I once dropped a piano on my big toe and it didn't hurt at all until the next day."

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #122 on: November 14, 2012, 01:16:49 PM »
Except that's not what Waazraath is saying.
Again, nothing Nijineko said invalidates Waazraath's statements. Like, at all.
If Waazraath would've said "high-op always takes much much time" then Nijineko's disagreement would make sense. But he didn't. He said low-op takes less time. Where exactly do you see a disagreement here?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 01:23:35 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #123 on: November 14, 2012, 03:32:27 PM »
He said "low op takes less time and that is an advantage it has over high op."

nijineko said "I can put together a high op encounter in a sufficiently short time that even if a low op encounter would take less time it would not be a significant difference."

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #124 on: November 14, 2012, 03:36:13 PM »
That's not what he said.
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline Vasja

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #125 on: November 14, 2012, 03:41:10 PM »
That's not what he said.

A thing in favor of low op campaigns as a DM: it takes much, much less time to design a good adventure for a party that has very few options then for a party with hundreds of options.

i must disagree. i have never found this to be true. most recently, i am running a campaign (going on three years now) where the characters range from 16th to 18th level, average of five pcs in a given session, and it seldom takes me more than 30-60 minutes to prepare for any one session. including stats and such-like.

Emphasis mine. Seems pretty clear what he said.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 03:43:19 PM by Vasja »

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2012, 03:44:57 PM »
Okay, nevermind my last post. I see that maybe he said that (and I mean Waazraath, not Nijineko, Nijineko didn't say that). I still don't see where's the disagreement. Nijineko doesn't need much time to make a high-op game. So? Waazraath didn't say he does have to. And I don't get what "significant difference" has to do with anything. Low-op takes less time than high-op. It's pretty self-explanatory why. Nijineko disagrees because he can make a high-op game quickly. I can only say "Wat" to that, because that's not an "I disagree" type of argument.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 03:57:42 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2012, 05:55:00 PM »
If Waazraath's point was only "low op takes less time than high op" then it was also a meaningless point.

My reading of it is "low op takes less time than high op and this is a reason to run low op over high op"

nijineko's comment disagrees with the bold portion above by pointing out that, for him, the amount of time it takes to create a high op encounter is well within reasonable levels of prep time and therefore low op taking less time is not a significant advantage it has over high op.

Incidentally, I firmly believe that Waazraath and nijineko are sitting in a bar somewhere, having a beer, and laughing their asses off at this line of discussion.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2012, 05:57:59 PM »
LordBlades: I feel strongly similar.  At some point, gimping yourself is just acting as a dunce, and it breaks immersion and credibility.  If you aren't trying, what are you doing?  Probably losing.
I take the kind of opposite approach.  Optimization is to take a "crappy" concept, I think a Dex Fighter was mentioned earlier, and make it not suck.  The character concept* is key.  Optimization is to make it "work."  If the concept is "dude with a crossbow," then even if crossbows suck and it would be strictly superior to use a bow (and in the limit, strictly superior to play something utterly different), that's irrelevant.  The task at hand was to create "dude with a crossbow." 

That might be why part of this discussion just sails past me.  I take a concept, build it up to what I think is viable or practical, and then call it a day.  If I play it for a while, it will tend to accumulate a few more fiddly bits just to keep me entertained. 

The only way I can understand low op v. high op is just changing that measuring stick -- a low op game would just involve pushing that measuring stick down.  Otherwise, it just doesn't seem to work at all.  If you define low opp as "no Wizards, etc." but say I can play a Duskblade or a Chameleon or even just a humble Ubercharger build of some stripe and I play the most badass, optimized version of any of those, I'll have broken the game in half anyway. 

*for non-stupid concepts, at least, and those appropriate to the campaign.


P.S.:  I took a few days away from this discussion b/c I was getting annoyed and b/c I'm murderously busy.  I think my views on the earlier (sub-)topic were adequately expressed by others, and I appreciate your comments.  I have no intention of picking up that topic again, as I do not think there is anything I have to add to it that I or others have not already expressed.  In the unlikely event that there's an open question or something, feel free to PM me.  Thanks again.

Offline Waazraath

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #129 on: November 14, 2012, 06:14:48 PM »
Ok, I'll try to explain what I meant a bit more extensively:

"it takes much, much less time to design a good adventure for a party that has very few options then for a party with hundreds of options."

This is my experience, from playing over a decade 3.0/3.5, with loads of different gaming groups, high optimization and low optimization, newbees and experienced optimizers. I don't think anybody can 'disagree' that I have these experiences, unless somebody from mentioned gaming groups who wants to argue I have incorrect recollections of the past. Of course, other people can have other experiences, which are equally valid and should be respected as such imho. If nijineko can build an adventure for a highly optimized party in as little time as for a low optimized party: respect. You need to have a lot more knowlegde of the rules memorized then I have, and probably quite some skills with improvisation. High optimization means often spells & powers, and there are awefully many of those, annd they interact with each other in loads of ways, and give much more options.

Anecdote why I think it's hard: when I DM, I like to create an elaborate setting, with stuff happening at several places in the world at the same time, and several sub plots running at the same time. Which isn't too hard to manage for a party with 5 fighters, and where traveling from A to B takes weeks in game time (plenty of time to interrupt a session with some random encounters and then thougroughly prepare for where they are heading). Now add a wizard with teleport: suddenly, I need to have all my subplots ready, just in case the party suddenly decides to go adventure somewhere else. That takes much more time for me. (This is only one simple example that crosses my mind now, plz don't make too much of it). (I'm not saying teleport is high op, just to be clear, just want to stress the point that higher op leads to more options and more need for preparedness from the DM).

But besides my experiences, it's also a common sense thing for me that in general it is more difficult to build encounters. Imagine a basic dungeon, with corridors, ledges, cliffs, and the occasional underground river. If I have a party with very little options (only normal movement), it's easy to prepare: I know how they are going in the dungeon, and to a large extend how they wil move through the dungeon. But if I have a party that can burrow, swim and fly (and for good measure, become incorporal and ethereal) as well, it's much more difficult. Suddenly, I have to make up what's actually in the river, where it comes from and where it goes to. The party can skip whole levels, find every secret room just by putting their head through a wall. In the first example, I only need to design the dungeon so far as a party can reasonably get in one session, in the second place, the entire thing has to be drawn out and populated.

Optimization, as far as I'm concerned, leads to two things: more versatility and more raw power. Versatility offers much more options, which leads to more things you have to anticipate on as a DM. Raw power (at the end: huge damage, impossible DC's) leads to shorter encounters, again, in my experience, as I said in my earlier post: "removing the rocket tag (save or dies, save or sucks, ubercharging, which is a way of making the game more low-op) leads to longer fights (duh), which sometimes gives a more epic feel." An uber charger is a heavily optimized fighter, a wizard that can cast a DC 35 SoD at level 10 is heavily optimized; lower optimized characters (the same fighter without shock trooper/pounce but with dungeon crasher, the same wizard without SoD's but with blast spells, or a much less optimized DC) lead to longer combats. Again, it is my experience, but to me it is 'common sense' as well.

Of course, you can have longer combats as well: higher op means that you have defenses against the 2000 damage dealing barbarian (miss chances, impossible AC's, immediate action reactions, etc.) or against de DC35 SoD. But that becomes a kind of tactical game, for which you need to know the rules really well, both the players and the DM. That would bring me back to my first point: that takes time/effort.

To make all this rather relative: it's also a matter of choices that a group make; the same amount of optimization that creates an ubercharger or hood can create a stand still / trip build, that prolongues fights rather then abruptly ends them.

Concluding: yes, I do think it takes more time, in general, to build encounters as a DM for high op games, if only because you need to know more rules (spells / powers) and have knowledge on how they interact with everything else. And because the party has much more options that a DM needs to anticipate on. That doesn't mean that there are no people that played a lot of those games, who can make an adventure for a high op party on the fly. I also think that in general lower op games have less rocket tag. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to design encounters that last long even when playing rocket tag, or that every optimized build leads to a game of rocket tag. But using / designing good high op tactics costs even more time to design (for me in any case), and needs an entire group that is quite willing to go 'deep' into the rules.

PS @concerned ninja citizen: hell, I wish I was, instead of at home behind my computer typing this huge wall of text  :lmao

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #130 on: November 14, 2012, 11:35:46 PM »
LordBlades: I feel strongly similar.  At some point, gimping yourself is just acting as a dunce, and it breaks immersion and credibility.  If you aren't trying, what are you doing?  Probably losing.
I take the kind of opposite approach.  Optimization is to take a "crappy" concept, I think a Dex Fighter was mentioned earlier, and make it not suck.  The character concept* is key.  Optimization is to make it "work."  If the concept is "dude with a crossbow," then even if crossbows suck and it would be strictly superior to use a bow (and in the limit, strictly superior to play something utterly different), that's irrelevant.  The task at hand was to create "dude with a crossbow." 

That might be why part of this discussion just sails past me.  I take a concept, build it up to what I think is viable or practical, and then call it a day.  If I play it for a while, it will tend to accumulate a few more fiddly bits just to keep me entertained. 

The only way I can understand low op v. high op is just changing that measuring stick -- a low op game would just involve pushing that measuring stick down.  Otherwise, it just doesn't seem to work at all.  If you define low opp as "no Wizards, etc." but say I can play a Duskblade or a Chameleon or even just a humble Ubercharger build of some stripe and I play the most badass, optimized version of any of those, I'll have broken the game in half anyway. 

*for non-stupid concepts, at least, and those appropriate to the campaign.

Is the crossbow dude facing significant risk to his person in the encounters he's going through?
Can he tell that guys with bows are generally more effective than him?
Is it a non-impossible matter for him to pick up a bow and get decent at using it (to the point he does better than with his crossbow)?

If the answers to the above questions is 'yes' then I'd have a hard time finding an in-character motivation to not switch to bows.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the fun of taking a 'crappy' concept and make it good, but, from an in character perspective, a guy that has a clear&not very hard way to get better (and thus increase his chances of living through the day) but doesn't (without a good reason) just doesn't seem plausible to me.

Offline Shadowknight12

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #131 on: November 15, 2012, 12:08:38 AM »
Um, at the risk of pointing out the obvious...

If you optimise the crossbow dude right off the bat so that he fulfils the goals of the player, then there's no good reason for him to switch to bows. Now mind you, it's entirely possible that the player's goals do not include "surviving the campaign" or "being the character that contributes the most in all encounters", but if the character is sufficiently optimised to satisfy the player's goals (whatever those might be, including simply "playing a guy with a crossbow"), then that's all that matters.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #132 on: November 15, 2012, 01:13:47 AM »
If we're talking in character, why on earth do you assume that you'll even be able to tell whether guys with bows are more effective than you?

People are notoriously bad at evaluating their own performance and they are also likely to cling to the familiar in scary situations. It makes perfect sense that a crossbow wielding character would stick with the crossbow even in the face of blatant evidence that bows are superior (and that sort of evidence is probably only going to show up if there are optimized bow users in the party.)

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #133 on: November 15, 2012, 01:53:55 AM »
If we're talking in character, why on earth do you assume that you'll even be able to tell whether guys with bows are more effective than you?

First of all, as far as the game rules go, what characters know: bows can do more damage (the fact that craftsmen can choose to make particular mighty bows leads me to believe the possibility of adding str to damage with a bow is known in-character), bows are faster to reload, bows require you to be strong enough to wield them (see mighty above) crossbows are easier to use (simple vs. martial). So I'd expect the average warrior to know that provided you meet the prerequisites, you can usually get more mileage out of a bow than a crossbow.

Secondly, in RL people have studied the relative merits of different weapons and armors and proceeded in consequence. What makes you think a fantasy D&D world would be any different? To keep with the ranged weapon related topic: how many units of slingers and/or javelin throwers (both widely used in antiquity) have been fielded in medieval warfare once the bow and crossbow became widespread?

 
People are notoriously bad at evaluating their own performance and they are also likely to cling to the familiar in scary situations. It makes perfect sense that a crossbow wielding character would stick with the crossbow even in the face of blatant evidence that bows are superior (and that sort of evidence is probably only going to show up if there are optimized bow users in the party.)

I beg to differ.  Yes people  cling to the familiar, but the more your life depends on it the more likely you are to value effectiveness over what you like. Just look at how many soldiers have adopted different pieces of enemy gear because they felt it was 'better' (either individually or organized as an army). I think a guy is far more likely to go 'this jacket is better than mine but I'm not going to change because I like my jacket' than 'this rifle is better than mine but I'm not going to change because I like my rifle'. Also, when your life depends on what you know you can/can't do vs. what the enemy can/can't do, most people tend to be pretty accurate in evaluating their own performance vs. the enemy's. Especially when it's about relative performance of gear. For example, I've yet to see any account from a British or American tank crew that didn't admit the German Tiger and Panther tanks were vastly superior to the Sherman (non Firefly) tank in most fields apart from mechanical reliability.

Um, at the risk of pointing out the obvious...

If you optimise the crossbow dude right off the bat so that he fulfils the goals of the player, then there's no good reason for him to switch to bows. Now mind you, it's entirely possible that the player's goals do not include "surviving the campaign" or "being the character that contributes the most in all encounters", but if the character is sufficiently optimised to satisfy the player's goals (whatever those might be, including simply "playing a guy with a crossbow"), then that's all that matters.

At the risk of also pointing the obvious, I was merely stating my opinion that TO ME a character that chooses inferior options without a good reason(when aware of the superior options in character and able to take them) doesn't seem plausible and I wouldn't play such a character. Of course, everyone else is free to do as they will.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 02:00:22 AM by LordBlades »

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #134 on: November 15, 2012, 02:57:18 AM »
That's all out of character reasoning and examples of modern warfare. A medieval fantasy world is not in any way the same thing.

Also, you're ignoring the issue of bows being a great deal more difficult to use than crossbows. That's why the crossbow exists. It's more expensive and slower to load for roughly the same effect, but you have to learn to use a longbow from birth and you can hand any schmoe a crossbow and expect them to be able to kill people with it.

And, yeah, slingers and skirmishers with javelins existed in the middle ages. In places where there was no tradition of bow use and not enough capital/technology for crossbows.

That's all if we're talking in character. Personally I don't think in character has much to do with anything. You can come up with a solid in character reason for any given thing and its opposite with a modicum of creativity. Saying "in character reasoning therefore it must be this way" is not tenable logic.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #135 on: November 15, 2012, 03:12:47 AM »
That's all out of character reasoning and examples of modern warfare. A medieval fantasy world is not in any way the same thing.

And who is to say that the setting for a particular game might not be medieval?  Who says they wouldn't have created tactics along the lines of what we call modern?

Even though D&D tries to give the impression of being medieval the fact that it has magic and plenty of other things the real world doesn't means any real world relevance gets tossed out the window, set on fire, and dismembered with a chainsaw.  Not necessarily in that order.

You know what happens when one ass/u/mes.


An idea I just had: D&D isn't a game.  It's a collection of guidelines for people to make their own games.  Thus, it is entirely possible that other people are playing a totally different game from you.  Things get really bad really fast when someone doesn't accept this and just let others play.  A bit like religion.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 03:24:48 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #136 on: November 15, 2012, 03:14:17 AM »
That's all out of character reasoning and examples of modern warfare. A medieval fantasy world is not in any way the same thing.

I can provide plenty of not modern examples (starting from antiquity: romans adopted the samnite maniplular structure instead of the hoplite phalanx and the spanish gladius, Hannibal outfitted his army with captured roman gear, the heavily debated imitation legionnaires and the list can go on). All because something was (perceived as) more effective. This has happened in all ages of warfare.

Also, you're ignoring the issue of bows being a great deal more difficult to use than crossbows. That's why the crossbow exists. It's more expensive and slower to load for roughly the same effect, but you have to learn to use a longbow from birth and you can hand any schmoe a crossbow and expect them to be able to kill people with it.

No offense, but did you actually read my post? Because that's what I said too,

Quote
crossbows are easier to use (simple vs. martial).

Also, the difficulty of mastering a bow vs. crossbow is much greater in  RL than D&D. In RL you need to spend months or even years to become a good bowman. In D&D you only need 1 level or 1 feat (taken/retrained), which can be achieved in a matter of days.
.
And, yeah, slingers and skirmishers with javelins existed in the middle ages. In places where there was no tradition of bow use and not enough capital/technology for crossbows.

But most people that had archers/could afford crossbows used those instead, because their superiority was a known fact.

That's all if we're talking in character. Personally I don't think in character has much to do with anything. You can come up with a solid in character reason for any given thing and its opposite with a modicum of creativity. Saying "in character reasoning therefore it must be this way" is not tenable logic.


In the end my point was in response to Arturick, explaining why I would be opposed to playing in a too low-op game (gimping a character too much kills it's plausibility too much for me; I have trouble imagining and therefore getting into the mindset of somebody who would do that). I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating my personal outlook of stuff.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2012, 08:22:47 AM »
...
Is the crossbow dude facing significant risk to his person in the encounters he's going through?
Can he tell that guys with bows are generally more effective than him?
Is it a non-impossible matter for him to pick up a bow and get decent at using it (to the point he does better than with his crossbow)?

If the answers to the above questions is 'yes' then I'd have a hard time finding an in-character motivation to not switch to bows.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the fun of taking a 'crappy' concept and make it good, but, from an in character perspective, a guy that has a clear&not very hard way to get better (and thus increase his chances of living through the day) but doesn't (without a good reason) just doesn't seem plausible to me.
I understand this reasoning.  It is just anathema to the approach I take to the game.  First off, you could extend it, and then all characters = Pun-Pun. 

Secondly, I'm always not optimizing all the way.  I'm always holding back.  And, there's no place for that in this approach to the game.  My character would know if he learned this given skill (i.e., took a feat) or spell he'd be better at his job/goals.  It's like me picking which school to go to/building my resume. 

Ideally, all concepts would be equally supported and equally awesome.  They aren't.  In nearly any game that's true, though some aren't nearly as bad about it as various flavors of D&D. 

Finally, the question is what you think the rules are doing.  I contend that the rules are there to create a game.  To some extent they define the world in particular ways.  They tell you how hard it is to jump over a fence or whatever.  But, that's all in service to the game, which is a particular type of story and and a particular type of endeavor.  They are not designed to define a real world generally-speaking.  That's why a spell that does more damage and that's all is a higher level one than a spell that has little combat application but would easily, radically change the world -- damage is important to the game, the proto-industrial revolution is not.  The rules would be pretty terrible at doing anything else (viz. commoner railguns, etc.). 


P.S.:  it occurs to me I may be flogging a dead horse with my comments.  Apologies if that's the case, this was just my first chance to respond to what seemed to be questions semi-directed at me. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 08:52:31 AM by Unbeliever »

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #138 on: November 15, 2012, 08:45:38 AM »
Is it just me, or has this discussion evolved (devolved?) into one on G/N/S theory on all sides - my earlier contributions included?
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Why a desire to play an especially low-op game?
« Reply #139 on: November 15, 2012, 09:35:16 AM »

I understand this reasoning.  It is just anathema to the approach I take to the game.  First off, you could extend it, and then all characters = Pun-Pun. 



I'm not taking it that far, all I want is to feel my character is trying to be awesome in the context of who he is and the things he cannot change (race, stats, previous class levels).

I could totally have fun with a 11 starting Int batman wizard (guy who is trying to be awesome despite not being particularly gifted) but not with a 20 starting int blaster wizard (guy who is totally trying not to be awesome) unless it's some sort of mailman build.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 09:38:55 AM by LordBlades »