Author Topic: Smallest thing in D&D  (Read 27867 times)

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2012, 10:39:44 PM »

Even going so far as steam not being tiny droplets of water, but rather its own variant of material combining Water and Air elements.

hmm ... in 1e and 2e, the Para- and Quasi- elementals were their own thing separate from 4 basics.
Steam ~= Water + Positive ; Ice ~= Air + Water ... except that Steam Is Steam , and Ice Is Ice.
So Steam is not a tiny droplet of water, rather it's very own element.  It is "Steam", not all that real-life b.s.


3e technically changed that.  I wonder if the descriptive text
of say the Lightning Quasi-Elemental, defines those as being
1 element instead of a combination of 2 (or more) elements ??
SRD has: Ice Mephit comes from Air ; Steam comes from Fire.
Very different.

I don't think 3e every 'changed' it, they just never included most of it. That's why the mephits come from just the basic elemental planes.

The closest they officially came, was the elemental plane of ice in the Manual of the Planes. But in several dragon magazines, there are references and creatures from the paraelemental and quasi-elemental planes
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 01:13:23 AM »
And the flu is caused by viruses.

That's like saying “Water exists in D&D.  Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen atoms.  Therefore, hydrogen atoms exist in D&D.”  D&D may very well operate according to humorism and miasma theory.

Quote from: Expedition To Barrier Peaks
In a vain effort to halt the spread of the virus, the modular sections of the vessel were sealed and then separated, each left to its own fate.
Now, last I checked, 2nd edition D&D is still considered D&D. So, here's your virus.

Quote from: Book of Vile Darkness
Viral Agent (Su): At 5th level, a cancer mage befriends a disease or virus that infests his body.
And viruses in 3.0

So, the original Criteria was, "Written in a D&D book" and here is your book, twice.

And I never claimed that water was made up of atoms. There is no indication that atoms exist in d20 3.X. You have to accept that Expedition to Barrier Peaks came from Metamorphosis Alpha like Issue #359 of dragon suggests. Otherwise, you cannot apply MA's matter rules to D&D. It does talk about radiation in EtBP, but there is no context. Is it alpha, beta, or gamma radiation? We do not know. Only alpha is considered a form of matter (being basically a helium atom stripped of it's electrons.) and so we cannot assume the type, UNLESS the crashed spaceship comes from MA, in which case, since MA does discuss the types of radiation, then alpha radiation exists. And if Protons and Neutrons exist, then the quarks that make them up exist.

Ergo, the smallest thing in D&D is a quark. (In retrospect, I suppose it's possible that in D&D quarks don't exist and protons and neutrons are the smallest thing. If you wish to be so technical, so be it. Then the answer changes to Helium Atom.)

However, I accept that my example is 2nd edition and thus is most likely NOT what the OP is looking for. Hence why I moved on to other examples of items that are small and have been published in a book.

Now, in D&D immortals boxed set, they discussed universes with less then the normal dimensions. 0 dimensions is as small as you can get. I mean, that's a single point that has no size at all. Can't get any smaller then zero. (Well, you can, but you start to deal with negative mass and that just gets messy.)

But, AGAIN, I assume this is not helpful to the OP. He did not define his question well, but I'm giving him all the answers just in case this IS helpful. For all I know he's a DM trying to run an adventure where the players get shrunk down and fall into a Horton Realm. Sort of like that episode of Mork and Mindy where Mork gets a cold and shrinks down to nothing, then falls into a form of alternate reality. (I believe the episode was Mork in Wonderland.)

or maybe he's trying to come up with a weird use for Polymorph any object. Whatever. My answers still stand.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 01:47:14 AM »
@ Captain Q
Which version I'm using was stated a few posts above yours, but is also irrelevant. The OP, with jerk level emphasis:

No need to use jerk level emphasis. I know what you are just fine.

Let's look at your post, shall we?

Quote from: ariasderros
Just wondering, what is the absolute smallest thing in D&D. Smallest object or creature, doesn't matter, just smallest, but it must have its size mentioned in a D&D book.

Did you state what edition, or an I supposed to just MAGICALLY read your mind?

Now, the word "mentioned", do you know how many times I ripped this word apart when I worked for a law firm? The moment you entered this word into your question, you open any other documents that are even vaguely related. For example, if an object is "mentioned" in a book, I am free to look that object up in a dictionary. I am certain I can find somewhere on the internet where the word virus has a size next to it.

Three, without stating your purpose, I have no idea what's useful to you or not. So I state everything in the hopes that it will be useful, or you will narrow the search parameters after you read what your audience thinks your question was asking. Here, let me help.

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See? No room for misunderstanding. I assume that people might not be able to hear my thoughts no matter how hard I try to broadcast them, so I try and anticipate their questions about MY question and give as much useful information as possible.

After all, I'm asking people to spend time looking up stuff for me. Who would want to cause someone else to waste time looking things up just because I think I'm the center of the universe and everyone else exists for my personal amusement?

Rule Number One of Communication:
"It doesn't matter what you say, what matters is what your audience thinks you said."

For example: It's people like you that make me want to go back and reread Simon's version of the Necronomicon in hopes that somehow I'll figure out how to start the Zombie Apocalypse.

Please, Tell me what you THINK I said.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2012, 03:29:12 AM »
Actually, just on the topic of atoms vs. elements, if D&D's matter is made up of the prime 4 elements, I think it's more likely that any incoming matter, even if from another (atomic) reality, would be converted into elemental matter upon entry into that reality, as a function of the portal or teleport effect. (Otherwise they would immediately asphyxiate from lack of convertable oxygen.)

On-Topic: I'd have to check, but elementite swarms seem like the smallest specific described creature that I can recall.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 08:20:21 AM »
You'd have to get out a ruler for the exact measurements, but a gold coin probably ranks fairly well down there. It is the exact size of the illustration on page 168 of the PHB.

Assuming the same density as real world gold (and them being completely pure), 1/50 lbs of gold is 0.47 cm3, or 0.0287 cubic inches.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 08:24:21 AM »
The hagunemnon can assume a form "no smaller than a flea", so fleas apparently exist.  They aren't given a size, though... so I'm not sure what to do with that.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 09:51:35 AM »
The hagunemnon can assume a form "no smaller than a flea", so fleas apparently exist.  They aren't given a size, though... so I'm not sure what to do with that.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21530-giant-fleas-plagued-feathered-dinosaurs.html
Largest flea ever discovered measured 20.6 mm, largest living flea measures up to 12 mm. I assume that they use the size of a flea descriptively for players to know relative sizes, so we can use real world sizes. Human fleas measure around 3-4 mm length, which is probably what they intended for size comparisons, but the largest fleas known at least set a level that it can't be argued that it can't at least go down to *that* size.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 11:08:05 AM »
So far we have: the Cerebral Parasite, if we assume it is imperceptible due to size < Flea < Mosquito.
These are the creatures we have so far.
Most of this has only inference of size. Actually, all of it does. darn you WotC  :shakefist

You'd have to get out a ruler for the exact measurements, but a gold coin probably ranks fairly well down there. It is the exact size of the illustration on page 168 of the PHB.
Assuming the same density as real world gold...
Actually, the exact size of the coins is measured out in the Draconomicon, under the "How Big is the Pile" sidebar (p278). It is 1/10 of an inch thick, and it has a density vastly different from that of real gold.

Coins are very small on edge.
Paper / Parchment / Scrolls are smaller still.
But idk what the exact measurement is.

Good point, if we to infer that the smallest measurement possible for a dimension is equal to the thinnest object, then paper would fit.
The PHB mentions that D&D paper is cloth paper (the parchment is hide, thus thicker), thus it would have somewhere near the same thickness as a dollar bill, though likely a bit thicker due to ancient methods. Though that brings us to the thickness of thread, including the Drow favorite of spidersilk.

So we are now down to a "dot" of silk (as long as it is thick).
This is, unfortunately, still vague inference and hyperbole.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 01:29:52 PM »
@ Captnq, and no one else.
This would be a PM, but I have my reasons for wanting it in a thread instead of PM.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2012, 01:38:44 PM »
The Salient Divine Ability "Alter Size' references a grain of sand...
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2012, 01:56:06 PM »
The Salient Divine Ability "Alter Size' references a grain of sand...

Hmm...
A sack of flour is a trade good. Flour is finer than sand. Wheat Flour is the finest of the ones listed in A&E Guide. If sand still come in grains in D&D, each one a (very) tiny bit of Earth, then I wonder if plant grained flour still does.

One would think so, but still just inferred.

Good find SirP.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2012, 02:03:41 PM »
Most of this has only inference of size. Actually, all of it does. darn you WotC  :shakefist
To be fair, it seems unreasonable to expect them to include exact measurements for things people should know the scale of quite well.

For example, they list that wheat, peas, flour and such exist in the PHB equipment chapter, expecting people to know both what it is, and the rough size of it (should that become necessary).
Random thought because I looked at that chapter again - every single type of coin is both the exact same size and exact same weight. I find this funny.

As an aside, I checked out some science, and discovered that the median size for flour particle is just around 100 micrometerssource. For reference, that is about the same size as the width of a human hairwikipedia, and close to the diameter of very fine sand (sand ranges from 63 µm to 2 mm, per ISO standards). Quick Google search indicates that 30 micrometers is about the limit of what the human eye can see, if you're close enough (but that was an unsourced claim).

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2012, 02:13:52 PM »
Most of this has only inference of size. Actually, all of it does. darn you WotC  :shakefist
To be fair, it seems unreasonable to expect them to include exact measurements for things people should know the scale of quite well.

For example, they list that wheat, peas, flour and such exist in the PHB equipment chapter, expecting people to know both what it is, and the rough size of it (should that become necessary).
Random thought because I looked at that chapter again - every single type of coin is both the exact same size and exact same weight. I find this funny.

As an aside, I checked out some science, and discovered that the median size for flour particle is just around 100 micrometerssource. For reference, that is about the same size as the width of a human hairwikipedia, and close to the diameter of very fine sand (sand ranges from 63 µm to 2 mm, per ISO standards). Quick Google search indicates that 30 micrometers is about the limit of what the human eye can see, if you're close enough (but that was an unsourced claim).
:twitch

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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2012, 03:22:32 PM »
there are several fungal creatures (i'm currently looking at the ascomoid in Dungeonscape) that release spores and online the spores average about 5µm depending on species, with large ones about 100µm

http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/mycology/2000-July/007898.html
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Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2012, 04:11:22 PM »
You know, you don't need to choose between atoms and the four elements; you can have both.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 03:27:52 PM »
Mimir is good stuff ... a little 3rd party -ish though.


Drunken Master could wield any of these smallest things
as an improvised weapon, and then stick a Duodimension
"effect" on the weapon via Limited Wish or Bend Reality
... "grain of sand" with only 2 dimensions.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 03:29:25 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2012, 08:24:51 PM »
Oh, important thing to remember here - the smallest thing we can get will probably not be a creature, because Shrink Item does a lot to reduce the size of something.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2012, 10:12:18 PM »
You know, you don't need to choose between atoms and the four elements; you can have both.

That is just using the word "atom" to mean a really small amount of the element. It is still different than neutron/positron/electron atoms.

I like that chemistry though. And that site is quite interesting.
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Offline Agnostic Paladin

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2012, 10:25:33 PM »
That's all the word "atom" originally meant; the greeks just used it as a hypothetical term for the smallest imaginable indivisible thing.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Smallest thing in D&D
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 01:21:52 PM »
Dimensional Pocket power ... also in CPsi.

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Shrink Item on the "grain of sand", Permanency, and Dimensional Pocket.
(VERY) Custom Magic Item.
Extradimensional most of the time, 1/16 * 1/16 * 0 when in the pocket and when called out.
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