Lockdown Crusader

[IlPazzo]

Hi!
I'm currently building a Tank for a new game to start the next week. For the main class I choose the Crusader, for obvious reason of ease to build an actcual tank.
Let's get specifical:

Rules for creating the character are:
Level 7, will play to no more than level 12, so no builds that become strong at later levels.
I already took Human for the race. I wouldn't change because of roleplaying reasons, but if I do, I don't want any non-core race (variants are allowed). Maybe Dragonborn Something might be better. I don't know if other templates are allowed.

GM ruled not to mix a lot of manuals togheter. So, apart from ToB and PHB I can use no more than 2 or 3 other sources. Magic Item Compendium is not included in this limitation.

No flaws or other alternate rules.

Sadly, no point buy. We will roll the dice on the first session. I was hoping for some advice on what to do with various arrangements of ability scores. Me and another player will however try to convince the GM to pick a method that allow us to know our ability scores before session 1. I will give you news on this.
28 point buy

Also, I don't know if I can ignore the rules on multiclass characters or not, but anyway, I don't want to multiclass into more than one other class.

Party members are: me, a Factotum, a Cleric and a Warlock. Factotum will go double caster, Cleric might go melee. As soon as I know more about it, I will tell you. Every other player is rethinking their role.

Concept of the build is, as the title says, a Lockdown Crusader. I must be able to get some kicks while protecting the rest of the party, and in order to do so, I'd like a way of getting Thicket of Blades at level 7 or earlier, or at level 8 at most as a usual full Crusader.

This is my first Lockdown character, so I'm not that expert. Actually, it's my second melee character (first was an übercharger).

Here's what I have built at the moment:

Note: this build is just a way of getting Ticket of Blades early, it may be changed entirely and I don't need to be an RKV. Also, I will read throughout the prestige classes of ToB to see what other early access to that stance I have there.

Human
Crusader 1 - Extra Granted Manouver; Combat Reflexes (Human Bonus)
Crusader 2
Crusader 3 - Stand Still
Crusader 3/Cleric 1 - Domains: Magic (for the domain power), Death (to swap the domain power for Death Devotion)
Crusader 3/Cleric 2
Crusader 3/Cleric 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1 - Free Feat
Crusader 3/Cleric 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2

That would allow me to get Thicket of Blades at Character Level 6 while losing only 1 Initiator Level, 1 BAB and getting access to cleric spellcasting and wizard magic item use while also boosting my saves.
Domains have to be chosen among Death, Magic and Law because worshipping Wee Jas is a prerequisite of RKV.

I was planning on using a Guisarme for reach and trip.
Manouvers and stances (apart from Thicket of Blades) have yet to be choosen.

However, this is not necessarily the build. I had not in mind to become an RKV. as the party already have a Cleric and a Factotum who will go Ur-Priest.
This build is just the first method that came to my mind to get early access to Thicket of Blades.

Suggestions on the free feat are more than welcome. I had in mind a few options, but I want to see what you say about it.


Alternate build that I had in mind (but have yet to work out properly) was something like multiclassing between Crusader and Warblade at specific level to get to know the best manouvers, maybe with some Prestige Class at some level as it would advance both Initiator Levels.

Any other build that includes mainly Crusader, no more than one other class, and prestige classes that advance Initiator Level is welcome. Even straight Crusader 7 if you can tell me why it's better than other choices.

[Empirate]

Take Cloistered Cleric instead of Cleric. It's just so much better for dips! It'll net you the Knowledge Domain as a bonus, which can be swapped for Knowledge Devotion, as well as enough skillpoints to fuel that. You only lose 1 HP compared to regular Cleric (you already have proficiencies from Crusader), but you gain the bonus domain, Identify (among other spells) on your list, and a Bardic Knowledge lookalike.

[jywu98]

Why not take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and go Spiked Chain instead? It can hit adjacent enemies too. Also, like the poster above suggested, go cloistered cleric rather than cleric. It's better for dips. You're pretty much trading 1 hp for Knowledge Domain, extra skill points, and Lore.

[Rebel7284]

Take the cleric levels first.  You have access to higher level maneuvers earlier then.

[Empirate]

Why not take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and go Spiked Chain instead? It can hit adjacent enemies too.

Spiked Chain is greatly overrated. Guisarme plus Armor Spikes can do almost all the Spiked Chain does (no disarming, no weapon finesse, but you're not looking for those), and saves a precious feat in a likely feat-starved build. Guisarme = best martial weapon in the game. Armor Spikes = win with a reach weapon.

[IlPazzo]

Take Cloistered Cleric instead of Cleric.

Noted. I don't know why I didn't think about it.

Take the cleric levels first.  You have access to higher level maneuvers earlier then.

At the price of 4HP that's worth considering, but I'm still unsure. I'll check the actual differences in maneuvers I would choice.

Armor Spikes = win with a reach weapon.

Can you please explain the basics of using Spiked Armor/reach weapon combo? Or link me a source where I can learn about it. Thanks.


There are news, ability scores are now determined by 28 point buy.
I just realized RKV tank has a little MAD (it needs constitution and strenght to tank, while also needing wisdom to cast spells and charisma for various bonuses). Can you suggest a way of fixing that?

I think I don't need a lot of wisdom. At level 12 I will need a score of 14 to cast 4-th level spells, but since they will be mainly buffs, I can ignore boosting any DC. I'd better leave a score of 12 and then just buy a +2 wisdom item right before level 9.

And that's one ability fixed. What's for the others? Maybe buffs can save me a couple point by letting me have less strenght and constitution. Can you help me a little? Maybe I should get a different race? Should I let a CHA score of 10?

Here's the setup I have in mind to start from and fix a little when actually calculating the various bonuses:
STR 15    +1 at level 8
DEX 12   
CON 15   +1 from level 4
INT 8     
WIS 12   
CHA 12   

[sirpercival]

If you only need Cha for the turn attempts, there are ways to get those.  Nightsticks, Extra Turning, cha-boosting items, etc.

[Empirate]

Guisarmes can attack opponents 10' away, but not adjacent opponents. Armor Spikes can attack the latter. So with Armor Spikes to complement your Guisarme, you threaten all the area out to 10' around you, instead of only a donut that doesn't include the space adjacent to you. This is basically what the Spiked Chain does, only not costing a feat.

[Endarire]

I prefer gauntlets instead of armor spikes.  They're cheaper and lighter and don't require you wear armor.

[IlPazzo]

But can I attack with a gauntlet while wielding a guisarme? Or, can I, as part of the attack of opportunity, free a hand from the guisarme and attack with the gauntlet?

[Empirate]

The FAQ states it is a free action to take one hand off a two-handed weapon (e.g. to cast a spell, or do something else that requires one hand), while you only hold the weapon with the other hand.

[Chemus]

That is a concern for me; usually you can only perform free actions on your turn. If that applies here then armor spikes are better, because you'd have to forgo the use of the guisarme in favor of the gauntlet.

[Rebel7284]

But can I attack with a gauntlet while wielding a guisarme? Or, can I, as part of the attack of opportunity, free a hand from the guisarme and attack with the gauntlet?

I see nothing wrong with punching someone in the face with a hand that is also holding a shaft.  More weight behind that punch that way.

[Chemus]

The hand isn't free to punch with; it's holding the guisarme. You should have to free it from the guisarme in order to attack with it.

[littha]

Not really... try picking something up and then punching something with the same hand... its not exactly hard to do.


Anyway on a more serious note you might want to read this:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a

[phaedrusxy]

I don't think the gauntlets work nearly as well as armor spikes. The problem is you are either using that hand to wield the gauntlet, or the guisarme, not both at the same time. So you either threaten at 5' or 10', but not both at once, which is crap.

[Chemus]

I don't think the gauntlets work nearly as well as armor spikes. The problem is you are either using that hand to wield the gauntlet, or the guisarme, not both at the same time. So you either threaten at 5' or 10', but not both at once, which is crap.

This is what I was trying to determine; if you have a sword in your hand, are you allowed to attack with the hand instead of the sword? The answer has direct bearing on how useful spiked gauntlets are.

[Empirate]

Seeing how spiked armor does more damage anyway, I really can't see the appeal of spiked gauntlets. Unless you're a monk with a lenient DM or something.