Author Topic: A Great White Wyrm for my PC's to fight at 20th level... now with always-on AMF!  (Read 15810 times)

Offline ksbsnowowl

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For a long while now I've had the eventual plot goal for my gestalt PC's to fight a slightly altered Great Wyrm White Dragon (the dragon is the result of a curse upon a Half-Fiend Ice Troll; as such, the dragon will retain the Ice Troll's Regeneration 4 [fire/acid]).

(click to show/hide)

Yesterday I stumbled upon something else interesting:  giving a great wyrm the Persistent Emanation epic feat to have a Widened Antimagic Field that the dragon can turn on and off as a free action.  See my original post within the spoiler:

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So, I would like a little help in making this dragon, most specifically his feats.

He needs to take Widen Spell and Versatile Spellcaster, as well as one other method of decreasing the cost of Widen Spell on AMF, or increasing his racial caster level.  He also needs to gain Spellcraft as a class skill.
Ways to decrease the cost of placing Widen Spell on AMF: Arcane Thesis (Antimagic Field), or Practical Metamagic (Widen Spell).
Ways to increase his racial sorcerer casting: Loredrake Archetype from Dragons of Eberron.
Ways to gain Spellcraft as a class skill: Loredrake Archetype or the Keeper of Forbidden Lore abyssal heritor feat from FCI.

Of the above, I'm leaning toward going with Practical Metamagic, as it makes Widen Spell more applicable in general (as it seems WAY over-priced at +3 spell levels).  I'm also looking at going with Keeper of Forbidden Lore, which fits this dragon's background, as he is the result of a transformative curse upon a half-fiend.  It also cuts down on the number of random sources I'm pulling on for this to work.  However, due to the Intelligence requirement of Keeper of Forbidden Lore, he won't be able to take it until his 27th HD.  That gives him 9 levels to dump lots of skill points into Spellcraft to get it up to 25, to qualify for Permanent Emanation by 36th HD.

Multiattack is probably a good idea, given the number of secondary attacks he's got.  Power Attack would also be good, as I can give him Wraithstrike.  Taking Fast Healing [epic] at 33rd HD is sort of devious, due to the way it interacts with him already having regeneration 4; it basically gives him Regeneration 7 until all the nonlethal is healed, then the regeneration turns off, and the fast healing continues to heal the fire and acid damage.

Anyway, here are his stats thus far.  I need to figure out the remainder of his feats, as well as his skills (ranks are denoted in brackets).  Any suggested alterations to what I have listed here are welcome.

(Note, I use the 3.0 tiered DR/magic, thus the DR 20/+3 listing in the stats.)

Loredrake Version
(click to show/hide)

I'm thinking of adding one level of Fighter or Feat Rogue to this guy to give him Power Attack, and make him a touch more difficult.  I haven't made up my mind yet.  I'll see how the party does against a few more dragons building up to this epic fight, first.

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« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 08:40:15 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline ksbsnowowl

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The other thing I need help with is his spells known.  The following is a list of the basics that are no-brainers:

Mage Armor (or Greater Mage Armor?)
Wraith Strike
Scintillating Scales
Antimagic Field

Sorcerer Spells Known: (9/5/5/4/4/3/2/[1])
Spells per Day: (6/7/7/7/7/6/4/[1])
0 (9) -
1 (5) - Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Shield (or Nightshield?), ?, ?
2 (5) - Wraith Strike, Scintillating Scales, See Invisibility, Resist Energy, ?
3 (4) - ?Blacklight?, Ray of Dizziness, Anticipate Teleportation, Displacement
4 (4) - Dimension Door, Heart of Earth, Enervation, Greater Mirror Image
5 (3) - True Haste (aka - 3.0 haste), Prying Eyes, ?
6 (2) - Antimagic Field, Stone Body
[7] (1) - Ethereal Jaunt?

Debating between Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.  The latter only gives him a +3 to his check at this point...
Dispelling Breath would be a better option.  Wait, no, they moved it from 4th to 5th level in the SpC... grr.

Also, due to a house rule, sorcerers gain their next level of spells at the same level as a wizard.  Casting as a 13th level sorcerer then means he gets one 7th level spell known, and one 7th level spell slot per day.
Thoughts on what would be a good candidate?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 02:45:02 AM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Garryl

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I wouldn't worry too much about defensive buffs, as the AMF will turn them off if you leave it up outside your turn (when you're most likely to be attacked). Not that they should be completely neglected as you do have to take out the non-caster some time, and your opponents may ready actions if the difference between AMF and non-AMF defenses are too extreme. In fact, make sure to get immunity to stunning and other conditions and effects that prevent free actions. If you get hit by, say, a Stunning Ray or Orb of Fire readied to be cast when you drop your AMF on your turn, you won't be able to perform the free action needed to bring it back up (on top of the usual issues that come with being stunned or dazed or whatever).


Offline ksbsnowowl

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Yes, readying actions will be the only way to defeat this guy.

Immunity to stunning, good idea.  Now, what ways are there to get that via feats or spells?

Offline McPoyo

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Why not just add in Extraordinary Spell Aim, to exclude himself from the effect of the AMF? Would allow his buffs to stay up, and wouldn't need to drop it every round then.

Granted, it means his breath weapon is essentially useless, but...

Offline phaedrusxy

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Yes, readying actions will be the only way to defeat this guy.

Immunity to stunning, good idea.  Now, what ways are there to get that via feats or spells?
Favor of the Martyr, Iron Body, Stone Body (6th level version similar to Iron Body).
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Why not just add in Extraordinary Spell Aim, to exclude himself from the effect of the AMF? Would allow his buffs to stay up, and wouldn't need to drop it every round then.

Granted, it means his breath weapon is essentially useless, but...
Just giving him the on/off AMF will piss my players off enough.  Plus, it will be nice to be able to merely stop whatever is affecting him if he does ever get hit with something.  Extraordinary spell aim would prevent that "feature."

Besides, the basic permanent emanation provides the "Independence Day" trope.  Nail the alien ship as its city-killing-laser is about to fire.  Nail the dragon when he inhales to let out a breath weapon.

Stone Body will work well for my purposes, thank you.  That will be quite the visual... attack him when his body turns as hard as stone...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 09:05:02 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Endarire

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Contingency seems optimal.  Extra actions, natch.

Though now I realize you could just get an item of it.  Hmm.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 10:50:07 PM by Endarire »

Offline Nameless Void

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Why not just add in Extraordinary Spell Aim, to exclude himself from the effect of the AMF? Would allow his buffs to stay up, and wouldn't need to drop it every round then.

Granted, it means his breath weapon is essentially useless, but...

Um.. Because using Extraordinary Spell Aim would mean he is unaffected by the Antimagic Field.. which means he would be subject to spells - thereby negating the reason for having Antimagic Field in the first instance...

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Why not just add in Extraordinary Spell Aim, to exclude himself from the effect of the AMF? Would allow his buffs to stay up, and wouldn't need to drop it every round then.

Granted, it means his breath weapon is essentially useless, but...

Um.. Because using Extraordinary Spell Aim would mean he is unaffected by the Antimagic Field.. which means he would be subject to spells - thereby negating the reason for having Antimagic Field in the first instance...
I believe the spell-aimed AMF would still be effective to a large extent.  It should prevent him from being targeted with spells (as the AMF would block line of effect).  However, it would not prevent magic weapons from functioning fully (as they are entering his space to hit him.)  Also, anyone entering his space would also not be affected (namely, if they got swallowed or somesuch.)

At least I think that's how it would work.

In either case, if he dropped the field to breath, then got hit with a readied spell, bringing the field back up wouldn't then suppress the spell now affecting him.  The normal AMF would do so.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 11:35:09 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Nameless Void

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I believe the spell-aimed AMF would still be effective to a large extent.  It should prevent him from being targeted with spells (as the AMF would block line of effect).  However, it would not prevent magic weapons from functioning fully (as they are entering his space to hit him.)  Also, anyone entering his space would also not be affected (namely, if they got swallowed or somesuch.)

At least I think that's how it would work.
I might be being a dunce here, but Antimagic Field does not block Line of Effect. A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.

Since AMF is not a solid barrier and you are excluding yourself from its effect via Extraordinary Spell Aim, you still get hit by any spell they cast at you. Anything cast in your vicinity won't work until you move but that's a different story.

In either case, if he dropped the field to breath, then got hit with a readied spell, bringing the field back up wouldn't then suppress the spell now affecting him.  The normal AMF would do so.
Far better idea to use the standard AMF.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Was looking this thread over as I'm starting to ramp up the cursed dragon story arc, and I realize that I am a complete dunce.  I wrote this whole thread based upon the mistaken belief that Antimagic Field was a 5th level Sor/Wiz spell.  It is in fact a 6th level spell.

All it requires to put this concept back in play for a normal game is to also give him the feat Arcane Thesis (Antimagic Field) as his feat at 24th Hit Die (which does suck, as that is the first level at which he could take Epic feats).  That plus Practical Metamagic (Widen Spell), turns a Widened Antimagic Field from a 9th level slot into a 7th level slot, and you can use two 6th level slots as a 13th level caster to create the needed 7th level slot via Versatile Spellcaster.

Alternatively, just be a Loredrake in place of taking Arcane Thesis, and get the bonus feat savings on Keeper of Forbidden Lore.

However, for this game I do not necessarily need to make either of these alterations, due to a house rule that gives sorcerers one daily spell slot and one spell known a level early so far as new spell levels are concerned.  So, just as a 13th level wizard gains 7th level spells, a 13th level sorcerer gets one 7th level slot, and one spell known.  However, he needs two 7th level spells to burn to make an 8th level slot; giving him a Cloak of Charisma +6 gives him the requisite Charisma to gain a bonus 7th level spell slot.  But, I hate relying on items...

Maybe Loredrake, here I come... the feat savings will allow me to pick up Improved Toughness and come out with the same HP's anyway.

EDIT: note to self - Awaken Spell Resistance is AWESOME on the older dragons.  That one feat will boost his SR from 27 to 36, as a CR ~21 creature.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 01:45:41 AM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline McBeardly

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Generically good for defense is divine denial to avoid cleric no save just loses.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Generically good for defense is divine denial to avoid cleric no save just loses.
Out of four gestalt PC's, only one of them casts divine spells, and he's a Druid//Sorcerer.  He mostly uses his Druid casting for buffing and healing, and leaves magical attacks to his sorcerer side.

Ergo, said feat wouldn't have much affect in my game.

Also, Awaken Spell Resistance is a simple feat to increase his SR by 9 to 36... as a CR 21 creature.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Here is a Loredrake version, to account for my antimagic level fubar:

Andvari-Cursed Great Wyrm Loredrake White Dragon
Size & Type: Gargantuan Dragon (Cold, Augmented Giant)
Hit Dice: 36d10+324 (522 hp)
Initiative: +0 (Dex)
Speed: 60 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy), swim 60 ft., burrow 30 ft.
Armor Class: 41 (-4 size, +35 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 41
BAB/Grapple: +36/+61
Attack: Bite +45 melee (4d6+13)
Full Attack: Bite +45 melee (4d6+13), 2 Claws +40 melee (2d8+6), 2 Wings +40 melee (2d6+6), 1 Tail slap +40 melee (2d8+6); or 1 Crush +45 melee (4d6+19); or 1 Tail sweep +45 melee (2d6+19)
Face/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft. (20 ft. with Bite) [*20 ft. with Wings][30 ft. with Tail Slap/Sweep]
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, frightful presence, spells, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Immunities, damage reduction 20/+3, SR 36 (SR 27), cold subtype, icewalking, blindsense, keen senses, regeneration 4, fast healing 3
Saves: Fort +28, Ref +20, Will +24
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 18
Skills: *Concentration +X [25], *Diplomacy +X, *Escape Artist +X, *Hide +X, *Knowledge (Arcana) +X [10], *Knowledge (Planes) +X [10], *Listen +X [30], *Move Silently +X [18], *Search +X [30], *Sense Motive +X [20], Spellcraft +X [25], *Spot +X [30], *Swim +X [5], *Use Magic Device +X [25]
Feats: Flyby Attack, Hover, Wingover, Improved Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Awaken Spell Resistance, Versatile Spellcaster, Widen Spell*, Practical Metamagic (Widen Spell), Spellcasting Harrier, 30, Fast Healing, Permanent Emanation (Widened Antimagic Field)
Climate/Terrain: Any cold land and underground
Organization: solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating: 21 [22?] [GCR 20 or 21]
Treasure: Triple standard (261,000 gp)
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 37+ HD (Gargantuan)

Skill Points:
1: 4*(6-2) = 16
2-11: 10*(6-2) = 40
12-17: 6*(6-1) = 30
18-20: 3*(6+0) = 18
21-26: 6*(6+1) = 42
27-35: 9*(6+2) = 72
36: 1*(6+4) = 10
Grand Total: 228

*Technically metamagic feats have no prerequisites, so he could take Widen Spell before he even has a caster level, but we'll not cheese it that badly.

Breath Weapon (Su): A cone of cold 60x60x60 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 12d6, Reflex half DC 36.
Frightful Presence (Ex): The dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence whenever it attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures with fewer than 36 Hit Dice (except for other dragons) within 360 feet of the dragon must succeed at a Will save (DC 32) to avoid this fear effect, and remain immune to that dragon's frightful presence for one day. On a failure, creatures with 4 or fewer HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds.
Spells: Knows and casts arcane spells as a 15th level sorcerer.
Sorcerer Spells Known: (9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/[1])
Spells per Day: (6/7/7/7/7/6/6/4/[1])
0 (9) -
1 (5) - Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Shield (or Nightshield?), Identify, ?
2 (5) - Wraith Strike, Scintillating Scales, See Invisibility, Resist Energy, Cat's Grace
3 (4) - Heart of Water, Ray of Dizziness, Anticipate Teleportation, Displacement
4 (4) - Dimension Door, Heart of Earth, Enervation, Greater Mirror Image (He needs Scrying, so I've got to lose something else)
5 (4) - True Haste (aka - 3.0 haste), Prying Eyes, ?, ?
6 (3) - Antimagic Field, Stone Body, ?
7 (2) - Ethereal Jaunt?, Spell Turning?
[8] (1) - Otto's Irresistible Dance
Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day-gust of wind, fog cloud, wall of ice; 1/day-control weather. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 13 level sorcerer (save DC 14 + spell level).
Freezing Fog (Sp): The dragon can use this ability three times per day. It is similar to a solid fog spell but also causes a rime of slippery ice to form on any surface the fog touches, creating the effect of a grease spell. The dragon is immune to the grease effect because of its icewalking ability.  This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.
Immunities (Ex): All dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis effects. All white dragons are also immune to cold.
Cold Subtype (Ex): Cold immunity, +50% damage from fire.
Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces the dragon climbs must be icy. It is always in effect.
Blindsense (Ex): Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.
Keen Senses (Ex): A dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.
Regeneration (Ex): Ice trolls take normal damage from fire and acid. If an ice troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 02:41:39 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Hmm, didn't you want to give Dispelling Breath, which is a 5th level spell?

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Hmm, didn't you want to give Dispelling Breath, which is a 5th level spell?
Was thinking about it, then last night actually looked at the spell.  It was utterly NERFED in the Spell Compendium.
Draconomicon: 4th level, everyone who fails a save vs your breath weapon is subjected to a TARGETED dispel magic.
Spell Compend: 5th level, everyone who fails a save vs your breath weapon is subjected to an AREA dispel magic (though they still say it is targeted, it is NOT).

Yes, it saves you an action vs. dispel magic and breathing, and gets the CL up to 15th, but it can only function as an area dispel, so only one spell stripped per "target," IF they fail the save vs your breath.  Not worth it.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Go for a Necklace of Natural Attacks with the Greater Dispelling property on a claw/bite instead.  :smirk
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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I still have one last feat to give him, at his 30th HD.  It could be an Epic feat, but I'm not seeing any more epic feats that I want that he already qualifies for.  I'm tempted to give him Final Strike from Savage Species, so he explodes for 20d6 cold damage and 18d6 piercing damage within 60 feet when he dies.  It would make sense, given that this beast is based on a Half-Fiend Ice Troll; maybe his daddy was a Balor...

Go for a Necklace of Natural Attacks with the Greater Dispelling property on a claw/bite instead.  :smirk
Okay, Necklace of Natural Weapons is from Savage Species; Greater Dispelling...?  Ah, found it in PGtF.  It's only at CL 11, though... and pretty damn expensive to boot (not that cost is much of a factor, here).

Still, not a terrible option.  Of course, when all is said and done, my Druid PC will be running around dispelling bad guys with his bite attacks...

Of course, now that I've decided to make him a Loredrake, he has an extra 6th level spell known, and at CL 15, it would actually be worth the higher spell slot... Disintegrate would be nice, but would only be a DC 20 Fort save (excepting any Cloak of Charisma that might up it to DC 23), and most of my PC's will pass that on a natural 3 by that point.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 12:11:21 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Well, the psionic version is a lot better, as it uses the wearer's own manifester level. Depending on what level of transparency you use, that might work. Alternatively, you could make up a magic version that works the same way.
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