Author Topic: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.  (Read 35753 times)

Offline Nytemare3701

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Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« on: November 30, 2012, 10:20:44 PM »
Moreso the 3rd part stuff like Stack Metamagic, but there is enough in the official content to make PF metamagic entirely incompatible with 3.5. (Note: Stack+Extend+Thesis=infinite buffs.)

Echoing Spell is a +3, but if you can mitigate that you now have double your spell slots.

Bouncing spell makes single target defenses kind of pointless for team monster.


Offline littha

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 10:21:47 PM »
Pathfinder caters to casters and nerfs melee. What did you expect them to do with Metamagic?

Offline Captnq

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 11:24:06 PM »
I briefly looked at PF metamagic feats when I was making The Spell Book. You know that scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark? The face melting, head exploding part? Yeah... that part.
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Offline WarlockLord

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 11:37:50 PM »
I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Pathfinder version of Persistent Spell.

You know, the one that forces people to pass two saves to beat a spell at a +2 level adjustment?

Get dem caster buffs.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 04:18:34 PM »
Check out Spell Perfection, and Persistent Spell.  Or Dazing Spell.

Paizo loves its casters very much.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 12:50:32 PM »
Check out Spell Perfection, and Persistent Spell.  Or Dazing Spell.

Paizo loves its casters very much.
I don't know how much worse PF is than 3.5 in this regard. 

But, I suppose we should be happy for PF and casters.  They seem to be very much in love.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 02:03:28 PM »
3E had some insanely broken options, but on the whole they made up a lower % of the content and were pretty blatantly easy to spot and ban because of how overpowered they were.

In PF, there's just so many powerful caster tools, including stuff that just wasn't even an option in 3E.  There was nothing like Dazing Spell, that feat single-handedly turns any damage spell into a reflex save-or-lose, makingi t easy for the mage to round out his rock-paper-scissors (fort-reflex-will) arsenal in order to have the perfect win spell for any opponent.  And Persistent Spell, which makes it all but impossible for anyone who had an average-to-poor chance of making the save succeeding.  Granted, PF doesn't have the broken mess that is 3E's persistent spell.... instead they made it a ring in Ultimate Equipment so any caster can get the benefit of it w/o needing very high level spell slots or divine metamagic cheese.

While mages on the whole aren't any better in PF I suppose, you have to compound it with just how massively they nerfed the lesser classes, on nearly every level you could conceive.  It's only with this full perspective that their raging hard-on for casters becomes truly apparent.

Offline Halinn

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2012, 02:37:25 PM »
In PF, there's just so many powerful caster tools, including stuff that just wasn't even an option in 3E.  There was nothing like Dazing Spell, that feat single-handedly turns any damage spell into a reflex save-or-lose, makingi t easy for the mage to round out his rock-paper-scissors (fort-reflex-will) arsenal in order to have the perfect win spell for any opponent.  And Persistent Spell, which makes it all but impossible for anyone who had an average-to-poor chance of making the save succeeding.  Granted, PF doesn't have the broken mess that is 3E's persistent spell.... instead they made it a ring in Ultimate Equipment so any caster can get the benefit of it w/o needing very high level spell slots or divine metamagic cheese.
Also the two traits that each are a lesser arcane thesis.

Offline Libertad

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 02:49:45 PM »
FATAL & Friend's slogan for Pathfinder:

"Because fuck fighters, that's why!"

Offline Halinn

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2012, 03:08:50 PM »
FATAL & Friend's slogan for Pathfinder:

"Because fuck fighters, that's why!"
Well, comparing only listed class features, fighters got an upgrade in PF. The issue is mostly that with only PF sources, the good ACFs are not available, and the PF versions of some feats are quite a bit worse. It's basically just losing access to the few good mundane options that 3.5 offered that hurts (a lot!)

Offline Empirate

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 03:38:04 PM »
I'd not say it's so bad in comparison to 3.x. What made metamagic so highly breakable then was the easy availability of metamagic cost reducers in all shapes, sizes and forms. Pathfinder has next to none of those (who play a Universalist Wizard, after all?). Dazing Spell is pretty awesome, and Persistent Spell is the equivalent of a +4 to the save DC, which is great. Bouncing Spell is a bit situational, but when that situation comes up, it is phenomenal. Reach Spell is very versatile, Selective Spell is sweet group lovin'. I like all of these quite a bit.

But none of those even begin to compare to the hideousness of stacking metamagic on top of metamagic with an Arcane Thesis'd Enervation and reducing the BBEG to a 1st level moron with one touch attack; or walking around with several 24 hour (or 48, depending on your DM's reading of Extend Spell) buffs just by spending a few turn attempts off a cheap item (or making a simple Spellcraft check, in the case of Incantatrix).

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 04:12:09 PM »
A. PF allows use of 3rd and 3.5 rendering points mote about PF doesn't have X.
B. FAQ nerfed Arcane Thesis twice (likely pre and post errata) which is more than I can say about PF.
C. It's a colossally unfair to name horrendously broken PrC or multiple feat combo requiring second party Feats (practical is cannon, easy is Dragon) limited to a single spell (per arcane thesis) as the entire WotC's created d20 system is borked while simultaneously saying you should ignore the entire Base Wizard class in PF. And also PF's Arcane Thesis alternative. and HOLY CRAP, THEY ACTUALLY MADE THIS TOO.

So what is it like to live in your world? I mean, do you bath your feet regularly to keep the taste down?

Edit: P.S. Technically free Heighten (3rd party but hey it's in their SRD). Its not a bad list for a series that barely has any supplements and expansions to it (unlike WoTC's 90+ official & 300ish Dragon Mags).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 05:11:29 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Nytemare3701

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Offline Amechra

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2012, 02:38:53 AM »
Edit:Technically free Heighten

As a fan of SCMs, I'm drooling.

I do have to wonder why this wasn't originally the case.

Of course, I'm planning on rewriting metamagic soon (I'm procrastinating about writing my own game about magical gangsters), and technically free heighten will be something you can do.

As long as you are sane about it (and I see no problems with an optimized SCM build in a high op game), everything should be a-OK.
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Offline Empirate

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2012, 03:39:17 AM »
A. PF allows use of 3rd and 3.5 rendering points mote about PF doesn't have X.
B. FAQ nerfed Arcane Thesis twice (likely pre and post errata) which is more than I can say about PF.
C. It's a colossally unfair to name horrendously broken PrC or multiple feat combo requiring second party Feats (practical is cannon, easy is Dragon) limited to a single spell (per arcane thesis) as the entire WotC's created d20 system is borked while simultaneously saying you should ignore the entire Base Wizard class in PF. And also PF's Arcane Thesis alternative. and HOLY CRAP, THEY ACTUALLY MADE THIS TOO.

So what is it like to live in your world? I mean, do you bath your feet regularly to keep the taste down?

Edit: P.S. Technically free Heighten (3rd party but hey it's in their SRD). Its not a bad list for a series that barely has any supplements and expansions to it (unlike WoTC's 90+ official & 300ish Dragon Mags).

Wow, manners.

A. The PF / 3x transparency was never more than a cheap marketing gag. Many PF groups don't use 3.x material (and with good reason, for putting the two together hurts big time).

B. Hey, at least PF nerfed other things, right? Like... the Monk, for instance!  :flutter

C. "The entire WotC created d20 system" was never at issue. What WotC, by and large and with the help of a lot of supplements, made of their metamagic 'system' over time was, though. The very well-known tricks to reduce metamagic cost is what this thread is all about, on the 3.x side. And there's quite a few of them, that are far from theoretical. It's not as if nobody ever saw an Incantatrix or Divine Metamagic (ab)user in-game! There's also Halruaan Adept, Anima Mage, Metamagic School Focus... the list goes on.

Calling a 3.x PrC "horrendously broken" and implying it's therefore a bad point of comparison, while at the same time harping on how broken PF is... I don't even get how your logic functions. No further comment.

And who said anything about "ignoring the entire Base Wizard class in PF"?! What the fuck are you even talking about?

Spell Perfection is level 15+, limiting its play time severely. I'm not concerned about a trick that only comes online when the game is already falling apart in a series of endless rocket tag.

Arcane Concordance is a Bard spell (what Bard doesn't have better stuff to pick at 3rd level?), and specifically allows free application of one of certain named metamagic feats (Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell), none of which is in any way a balance problem. A seriously niche spell, not at all a "HOLY CRAP!" moment.

Metamagic Focus is the best yet: it really only does something for you if there are no metamagic cost reducers applied! Do you even think before posting?

So what's it like to live in your world? I'm just asking because sucking my toes became boring recently, and I'm interested in what you do in your free time.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 03:40:53 AM by Empirate »

Offline Solo

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2012, 04:58:35 AM »
Please keep foot fetishes out of D&D threads. Thank you.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2012, 07:42:04 AM »
Check out Spell Perfection, and Persistent Spell.  Or Dazing Spell.

Paizo loves its casters very much.
I don't know how much worse PF is than 3.5 in this regard.
Pathfinder's biggest sin was that it was marketed as a "fix" to 3.5. If they were genuine about this, they had eight years of 3.x experience to draw from, which they largely ignored. Most of the changes were made simply for change's sake. As I mentioned in another thread, power creep is going to happen so they can keep selling books.

There are two reasons to play pathfinder, and looking for 3.x balance isn't one of them:
1) It's after 2008 and you want new 3.x material.
2) You like Wayne Reynold's art.

Now, I'm not saying Pathfinder is a bad system. I'd peg it at about the same quality as 3.5.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2012, 10:15:50 AM »
just wanted to say +1.  That's my feeling with PF, and given that I already know and have all this 3E stuff, and that I can cannibalize anything I want from PF without much effort, that makes me not a fan. 

[tangent]
I kind of feel like it's actually worse than 3E in a lot of ways.  Namely that it seems to strongly discourage multiclassing and dipping.  I have always felt that 3E's great innovation was to allow you, if you so chose, to really approach the game from a "concept first" perspective.  You come up with your character idea, and then you can hunt around for abilities and combinations and so forth that allow you to realize him or her.  And, ideally (and I recognize the implementation of this is far from perfect), that sits alongside the standard "pick a class" approach that D&D has always supported.

So, at the same table Jane can say "I want to play something a lot like Geralt of Rivia, let's make that happen" and Bob can say "I really want to play an iconic Barbarian" and the system caters to them both.  Pathfinder really seems to have a hate on for Jane's approach, which I feel strongly about since it's pretty much mine. 

I also find that there are fewer resources for battling against type.  For example, for some reason during football last night I was looking at Pathfinder Monks (masochism maybe?).  And, I had an idea for a build, but then I was like "I'd really like this guy to use a staff, I never do that and it looks cool in my head."  And, boy, do I think that would be a giant headache in PF.  Likewise, the only sneaky, dirty fighters are Orcs, b/c no human has ever tried to fight deceptively, and so on, ad nauseum. 

But, yeah, given that Pathfinder (a) marketed itself as a "fix" and (b) has to overcome the fact that I already have a 3.x system handy, namely 3.x, I feel like it had/has some higher bars to reach.  And, that, as far as I can tell, it hasn't really done a good job at that. 

[/tangent]

Offline littha

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2012, 10:19:49 AM »
+1 to you Unbeliever, those are exactly my views on pathfinder too...

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Today I learned that pathfinder snaps Metamagic balance in half.
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2012, 11:15:46 AM »
(click to show/hide)

In other news, it's way to damn early for another system vs system argument. Where is my Risus pdf when I need it...