Weapon Abilities Discussion

[Captnq]

One of my small rants on the MiC includes the Synergy crap.

See, nothing in Core suggests Flaming and Flaming Burst doesn't stack (two separate abilities) and when this Synergy came out in the DMGII Corrosive and such were not Synergy based. MiC nerfed the already far from underused elemental properties by preventing you from applying multiple of the same damage type in case you were idk, going to the Elemental Plane of Fire and thought it'd be cool to have a Frost Icy Burst Scimitar (it's like +3d6 dmg for +3 enhance).

So...

You are against updating things to reflect Synergy and would prefer that it reflected that things stack? Little unclear of your position here.

Let's take flaming and flaming burst.

You state that flaming +1 and Flaming burst +2 results in a +2d6 damage? Or no? Is there an example anywhere of a Flaming Flaming Burst Longsword +1?

[Captnq]

Flesh grinding - ... "Stab" it grinds in wound doing damage as if you were striking with it... 
+
Master slaying - command word strikes the wielder automatically with a critical ...
+
Vorpal   
=
Stab a guy when he gets tired of the damage your weapon is doing to him he pulls it out...

...  then you tell him to cut off his own head with it 


There can be only ...one !

Where is Master Slaying from? I couldn't find online the source and don't have my books with me right now.

MASTERSLAYING (3.0)
- BOOK OF VILE DARKNESS (3.0)

(click to show/hide)

Price: +1 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: Standard (command)
This melee weapon comes with a scabbard, belt hook, or other holder that is keyed to it in a special way. At the command of the character wearing the scabbard, the weapon attacks its current wielder with the scabbard wearer’s attack bonus, and the wielder is considered flatfooted (no sneak attack is possible, even if the scabbard wearer is a rogue). If it hits, the masterslaying weapon deals critical hit damage. This weapon is useful against rogues, foes that enjoy disarming and grabbing weapons, and in conjunction with the fleshgrinding ability.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, animate objects.

Now, fleshgrinding doesn't roll each round, and you don't command to cut off a head, you roll and hope for a 20, so the vorpal WA is kinda a waste of cash.

[Captnq]

Another possibility is including a separate rating for a likely audience.  A Berserker weapon is rated higher for Barbarians due to the assumed use of the biggest weapon they can find, but rated lower for the general public.

Well, there is the over all color rating scheme. which is basically 1 to 4. This is more for quick at a glance reference, like DMs quickly trying to come up with something. Then each entry will have an individual Editorial Comment and a Synergy comment. (yes, I know some WA have Synergy Prereq in the stat block. I'm removing the Synergy from that entry line to avoid confusion.)

So, while over all Berserker is a 2, it has an editorial comment that states:
Synergy: This could work well with Brash. If you can’t rage, consider adding Crazed or Furious. Alas, Furious is a 3.0 weapon ability and might not be allowed. Furious and Crazed do not stack, but in theory, you could use one for three rounds then use the next for another three rounds. Adding Brash adds an extra three rounds to both. A great deal of work to be able to froth at the mouth and fly off the handle, but, to each his own. Also, you can add Fury for an additional 1d6. Fury works on any melee weapon, where as Berserker requires that it be two handed.
Editor: If you are a barbarian, and love swinging a greatclub while shouting, “Oog SMASH!” then you could do worse then a berserker weapon. Everyone else, not really that useful unless you are adding Furious or Crazed so you can rage. Since most barbarians use two handed weapons, an additional 1d8 is better then the 1d6 from the fury ability. So for a barbarian who loves to rage, this becomes a must have.

[Captnq]

Now, that said, I cannot anticipate every possible combination of class/race/PrC/etc. but that's kinda while I have this discussion thread in hopes that people will point out things I'm missing. Lets say that if you are a halfling, long swords are two-handed swords to you, so that opens up a weird combo if you take aptitude and Exotic weapon masters or some shit. I'd like to hear about crap like that.

Er, what? Longswords are longswords. Small longswords are one-handed weapons for halflings and other small creatures, just like medium longswords are one-handed weapons for humans and other medium creatures. Even if you're wielding an oversized weapon (such as a medium longsword for a halfling), it's still a martial weapon, not exotic, so I don't see how Exotic Weapon Master applies. Unless you're talking about using aptitude to make the exotic weapon abilities apply to non-exotic weapons for some reason, but I don't see what that has to do with halflings and longswords specifically. Please explain, because it sounds interesting but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, The rules on weapon sizes. A one handed weapon for a medium size critter becomes a two handed weapon for a small. A one handed weapon for a medium becomes a light weapon for a large.

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

But unless you are willing to play a very narrow PC concept, it doesn't have much use. Some people are willing to play, but narrow focus means a decreased value in comparison to something like, oh, any of the Surge abilties from DM2. (Which, BTW, are BROKEN. So glad they updated them in MIC. 8,000 gp and I can hit you with 8d6 of extra damage with four different energy types? What the hell were they THINKING???)

How are you getting 8d6 damage for 8000g? That's the price of a +2 weapon (or a +1 flaming weapon or equivalent). Something seems wrong here.

Oh, under DM2 you could, in theory take Caustic Surge, Flaming surge, Icy surge, lightning surge for 8,000 gp. I'm not quite sure if you can activate them all at once, but I don't see why not. They replaced them in MIC with Energy Surge and made it a +1 bonus.

oh, I get it. In DM2 all surges were a flat +2,000 gp. NOT a +1 bonus. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

[Captnq]

As for the surge abilities, did you check the DMG2?  They're 2k each in there.  Although they don't actually stack since each one is a swift action, thus unless the character was able to get more than one swift action it's impossible to have all of them go off at once.

AH! So they are. I deleted then and never looked too closely because MIC superceeded them.

[Captnq]

Now, I know I'm asking for trouble, considering its a 3.0 WA, but...

Balance (3.0)
- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT (3.0)
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: —
A balanced weapon can be wielded more easily by smaller characters. A creature one size smaller than the weapon can use it in one hand. For example, a halfling could wield a balanced battleaxe in one hand.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Reduce.

So... By RAW... I can make a Large sized Two-Handed greatsword then make it balanced and now I (a medium sized critter) can use it one handed?

It doesn't make any distinction between a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon. Just saying.

[sirpercival]

That's because in 3.0 a greatsword was a Large longsword.  So a Large greatsword would be a Huge longsword.

[SorO_Lost]

You are against updating things to reflect Synergy and would prefer that it reflected that things stack? Little unclear of your position here.

In the example given, a Forst (+1) and ICy Burst (+2) would deal +2d6 Cold, against a [Fire] creature it deals an extra +50% (basically +1d6). Which function means your +3 weapon is giving +3d6 damage.

But double elemental against it's opposite element is very specialized, so much you could take into account the Bane Enhancement. Bane(fire outsider) is +2 in cost and adds +2d6+2 in damage but also increases chances of hitting. The extra +2 almost does as much as 2d6+50%'s average (9vs10) but there is chances of that 3d6 dealing up to 18 damage and technically Frost/Icy works on all kinds of creatures than just [Fire] subtyped Outsiders. So the it costs more pays for the wider application.

I can see no reason to call this system broken or in need of fixing. In fact, Players love dice and since no one really buys Elemental damage (it sucks, its too weak, there is better alternatives) popping a double elemental down as free loot means it may actually see some play before being sold. Because magical items as loot don't go in a Bag of Holding, Magical Items go on you until you sell them. So in a way, you can get them to roll more dice and use this mostly useless content, you're pretty savvy.

Then the MiC comes along. Lots of nerfages all around. Some needed it, like the Psionic Torc, Amulet of Retribution, even reworded the All-Arcane-Spells Relic to limited use per day. So when you flip to the Weapons side and see a brand new Synergy tag to the "Standard" Elemental Enhancements you can only think some dumbass out there thought something like a Flaming Flaming Burst weapon is too overpowered.

imho, the guy that wrote it probably got hired at Paizo. Then wrote Monk nerfs.

[kitcik]

Smoking

[Captnq]

Then the MiC comes along. Lots of nerfages all around. Some needed it, like the Psionic Torc, Amulet of Retribution, even reworded the All-Arcane-Spells Relic to limited use per day. So when you flip to the Weapons side and see a brand new Synergy tag to the "Standard" Elemental Enhancements you can only think some dumbass out there thought something like a Flaming Flaming Burst weapon is too overpowered.

Someone pointed out what you were talking about. The rules for that are in chapter 6 of the MIC. However, I would disagree with your assessment that they Nerfed Flaming burst. From what it reads, it never was supposed to stack with flaming, so they made it synergetic and reduced the cost. If anything, it remained the same, they just cleared up the accounting.

[Captnq]

Wait a sec...

I just went over every rule regarding Weapon Abilities. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that Energy damage doesn't stack.

Flaming is +1
Flaming Burst is +2

Nothing says they don't stack.

Acid burst is +1
Corrosive is +1

Now, acid burst states, "An acidic burst weapon functions as a corrosive weapon."

Which means it does, "A weapon that has this property deals an extra 1d6 points of acid damage on a successful hit."

Extra means, In addition to the damage already done. ie:
0d6 base
1d6 acid for corrosive
2d6 acid for Acidic Burst

Updating Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Shocking burst, Sonic Burst to reflect the changes made in MIC would REDUCE the cost of the various Bursts and make it cheaper to do MORE damage.

As a matter of fact, I believe that Acidic, Flaming, Icy and Shocking should all be consolidated into Energy Burst [Synergy] as a +1 bonus, just Like energy Surge [Synergy] is the consolidation of the various energy surges from DM2. In fact, one should consolidate Flaming, Corrosive, Frost, and Shock into one entry as well, most likely called Energy Damage.

As per WotC policy, Sonic and Force damage would both have different entries. Force, I get. I never understood the Nerfing of Sonic damage.

But, If I am missing something, please point out to me where I am wrong. I mean, look at Energy Surge [synergy]

"An energy surge weapon functions as a weapon of the prerequisite type (corrosive, flaming, frost, or shock). "

It functions AS. Like. In a similar fashion, but is not actually the thing in question.

A +1 Corrosive, Acidic Burst, Energy Surge (acid) longsword would do 3d6 acid damage base, an extra 1d10 on a critical, and can be commanded to, as a swift action, do an additional 3d6 damage. In total it would be a total +4 long sword.

So SorO_Lost, are you arguing that it doesn't stack? I'm confused here.


EDITED: I just checked the FAQ, it doesn't really answer the question, but if anything, it leads me to believe that the damage is additive. Since Flaming, Shocking, Frost, Flaming burst, Shocking burst, and Icy burst are all considered the same and can all go on the same weapon. (making a +10 monster, but still)

EDITED: I moved this question to over HERE.

[Jackinthegreen]

Now, I know I'm asking for trouble, considering its a 3.0 WA, but...

Balance (3.0)
- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT (3.0)
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: —
A balanced weapon can be wielded more easily by smaller characters. A creature one size smaller than the weapon can use it in one hand. For example, a halfling could wield a balanced battleaxe in one hand.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Reduce.

So... By RAW... I can make a Large sized Two-Handed greatsword then make it balanced and now I (a medium sized critter) can use it one handed?

It doesn't make any distinction between a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon. Just saying.

It technically doesn't seem to work RAW because the weapon's size category as an object is no longer really relevant to its intended user, thus it's nonsense only fit for TO.  However, it's easy enough to update the ability by simply saying "A Balanced weapon can be used by a creature one size category smaller than the intended wielder with the same effort at no penalty" or something like that.

[SorO_Lost]

Wait a sec...

So SorO_Lost, are you arguing that it doesn't stack? I'm confused here.

Per MiC they don't.

PHB: Flaming is +1 for +1d6. Flaming Burst is +2 for +1d6 & +1d10 on Crit. ~Nothing says no to Flaming Flaming Burst.
DMGII: Corrosive is +1 for +1d6. Acidic Burst is +2 for +1d6 & +1d10 on Crit. ~Acidic Burst is not a Synergy, they absolutely do stack.
MiC: Corrosive is +1 for +1d6. Acidic Burst is Synergy; +1 for +1d10 on Crit. ~Nahhh, stacking is broken.

Synergy effects replace their prerequisite effect, not stack with. See MiC page 225, left hand side, last sentence. It makes it self very noticeable.

[Captnq]

New issue...

APTITUDE

(click to show/hide)

- TOME OF BATTLE (3.5)
Price: +1 bonus
Property: Any Weapon
Caster Level: 7th
Aura: Faint; (DC 17) evocation
Activation: —
Prerequisite: Anyone can wield an aptitude weapon, but to gain any benefit from it, a wielder must have feats that are tied to the use of a particular weapon type.
Description: Aptitude weapons have no special appearance.
The aptitude property lets a wielder apply his expertise with another type of weapon to the aptitude weapon. Thus, the master of a greatswords the also the master of any aptitude weapon. A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like, can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality. In addition, if any of the wielder’s weapon use feats are specifically keyed to the aptitude weapon’s type, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

So, if I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) I now can wield any Ability weapon without any penalty, even if I lack the correct weapon proficiency? Would it have to be a weapon proficiency that had a specific weapon, or a would a general Weapon proficiency, like Martial Weapon Proficiency, be good enough to allow you to wield an aptitude weapon without non-proficiency penalty?

Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. These are specific weapon bonus feats. Does that mean that an elf can wield an aptitude weapon without non-proficiency penalties?

PROFICIENT (3.0)

(click to show/hide)

- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT (3.0)
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: —
The wielder of a proficient weapon never takes a non-proficiency penalty when attacking with it.

A +2 bonus that is completely underwhelming in comparison to...

SKILLFUL

(click to show/hide)

- COMPLETE ARCANE (3.5)
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Melee Weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: —
Highly prized by many arcane spellcasters, a skillful weapon can be wielded without penalty by a character not normally proficient with it. In addition, the wielder’s base attack bonus improves to a minimum of 3/4 his level (as a cleric of the same character level) when he attacks with a skillful weapon, though he gains no such bonus with any other weapon, even if a skillful weapon is wielded at the same time.

With the exception that skillful is Melee weapons only, and Proficient appears to be workable with any weapon. Do you think skillful was intended to replace proficient?

[Jackinthegreen]

New issue...

APTITUDE

(click to show/hide)

- TOME OF BATTLE (3.5)
Price: +1 bonus
Property: Any Weapon
Caster Level: 7th
Aura: Faint; (DC 17) evocation
Activation: —
Prerequisite: Anyone can wield an aptitude weapon, but to gain any benefit from it, a wielder must have feats that are tied to the use of a particular weapon type.
Description: Aptitude weapons have no special appearance.
The aptitude property lets a wielder apply his expertise with another type of weapon to the aptitude weapon. Thus, the master of a greatswords the also the master of any aptitude weapon. A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like, can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality. In addition, if any of the wielder’s weapon use feats are specifically keyed to the aptitude weapon’s type, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

So, if I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) I now can wield any Ability Aptitude weapon without any penalty, even if I lack the correct weapon proficiency?

PROFICIENT (3.0)

(click to show/hide)

- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT (3.0)
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: —
The wielder of a proficient weapon never takes a non-proficiency penalty when attacking with it.

A +2 bonus that is completely underwhelming in comparison to...

SKILLFUL

(click to show/hide)

- COMPLETE ARCANE (3.5)
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Melee Weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: —
Highly prized by many arcane spellcasters, a skillful weapon can be wielded without penalty by a character not normally proficient with it. In addition, the wielder’s base attack bonus improves to a minimum of 3/4 his level (as a cleric of the same character level) when he attacks with a skillful weapon, though he gains no such bonus with any other weapon, even if a skillful weapon is wielded at the same time.

With the exception that skillful is Melee weapons only, and Proficient appears to be workable with any weapon. Do you think skillful was intended to replace proficient?

Corrected your word usage.  But yes, it technically does look like an Aptitude weapon allows you to use it without penalty if you're proficient in anything else.  Considering even Commoners get one proficiency it's pretty well a given that anything with class levels can use it.   That's probably not the intent though since the easiest reading shows they meant it more for Weapon Focus et al, and definitely not stuff like Boomerang Daze.  One thing to note is that if a weapon's proficiency feat is counted for Aptitude then it's essentially a free +1 enhancement which was probably not their intent.  Put a warning on it that it can be broken quite easily depending on the feat(s) and weapon(s) tweaked with it.

As for Proficient versus Skillful, even if Skillful was intended to be a replacement it doesn't matter because they have different names and subtly different effects thus it's not a proper update which means Proficient can be used.

All three of these essentially show how RAWtarded the rules can get though.

[Captnq]

New Issue:

Ethereal Reaver was at one point a weapon, that was converted into a weapon ability. It would be fairly easy to go through and reverse engineer out all the Special Weapon's unique abilities. Do you think that should be done, or are special weapons supposed to be SPECIAL?

[Jackinthegreen]

New Issue:

Ethereal Reaver was at one point a weapon, that was converted into a weapon ability. It would be fairly easy to go through and reverse engineer out all the Special Weapon's unique abilities. Do you think that should be done, or are special weapons supposed to be SPECIAL?

That is for individual DMs to decide for their groups, thus our personal opinions really don't matter for the guide.  Including a section on reverse engineering might be worthwhile but make sure to say that it's not really supported by the rules and can screw the game up, hence why it's something DMs need to weigh based on their specific situation.

[Nagukuk]

[

MASTERSLAYING (3.0)
- BOOK OF VILE DARKNESS (3.0)

(click to show/hide)

Price: +1 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: Standard (command)
This melee weapon comes with a scabbard, belt hook, or other holder that is keyed to it in a special way. At the command of the character wearing the scabbard, the weapon attacks its current wielder with the scabbard wearer’s attack bonus, and the wielder is considered flatfooted (no sneak attack is possible, even if the scabbard wearer is a rogue). If it hits, the masterslaying weapon deals critical hit damage. This weapon is useful against rogues, foes that enjoy disarming and grabbing weapons, and in conjunction with the fleshgrinding ability.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, animate objects.

Now, fleshgrinding doesn't roll each round, and you don't command to cut off a head, you roll and hope for a 20, so the vorpal WA is kinda a waste of cash.
[/quote]

Some how my brain got con fuz ed, mistaking the hit from +1 masterslaying happening with out a roll and causing a crit oh well its been too long since i read it.

[Captnq]

I think I'm gonna hate myself...

In Minis, they have Sonic and Sonic Burst.
In MIC they have Screaming and Screaming Burst.

They are exactly the same. I cannot find anywhere that it says Screaming replaces Sonic, but they are effectively identical. So, do I include both in a master list (ie, you can buy sonic and screaming in the same weapon.) or should I drop Sonic, which I believe is the RAI of the thing? Note, no other elemental damage WAs are duplicated in this fashion.

[nijineko]

maybe a master list of what needs fixing, next. ^^