Weapon Abilities Discussion

[Jackinthegreen]

I think I'm gonna hate myself...

In Minis, they have Sonic and Sonic Burst.
In MIC they have Screaming and Screaming Burst.

They are exactly the same. I cannot find anywhere that it says Screaming replaces Sonic, but they are effectively identical. So, do I include both in a master list (ie, you can buy sonic and screaming in the same weapon.) or should I drop Sonic, which I believe is the RAI of the thing? Note, no other elemental damage WAs are duplicated in this fashion.

I'd probably go with listing both, but with Mini's Sonic (Burst) just point them to Screaming and say that since they're effectively identical you're using the most recent printing.

[Captnq]

New question:

So, if I put seeking in a golf club, as long as I roll a 20 and confirm critical, can I teleport the golfball into the cup for a hole in one?

[nijineko]

New question:

So, if I put seeking in a golf club, as long as I roll a 20 and confirm critical, can I teleport the golfball into the cup for a hole in one?

the "portable hole full of beer" pdf has a prestige class for you....

[Captnq]

Nearing the end of this WA HB, at least enough that I feel confidant to put it up as a PDF and ask people to go over it and look for obvious and glaring mistakes. I just want to go through one more read through (it's a 100 pages, BTW) and also add the rules section concerning weapon abilities.

While I was reading through I read this:

A synergy property still counts as any of its synergy prerequisite properties for the purpose of qualifying an item for still more synergy properties. For example, a +1 acidic burst longsword is still considered a corrosive weapon for the purpose of qualifying to receive the energy surge synergy property.

I just did the math...

I buy corrosive +1 (1d6)
Then I buy Acidic Burst +1 that requires Corrosive so I'm still doing 1d6.
Then I buy Energy surge +1 that requires Corrosive so now I'm doing 2d6.

Both acid burst and energy surge nix corrosive, but they both ACT as Corrosive, so wouldn't they both add 1d6 for 2d6?


And finally, to make thing REALLY complex...

I take Earth Elemental Power, which is a synergy to corrosive, but doesn't keep the corrosive power. what happens?

[Nytemare3701]

A synergy property still counts as any of its synergy prerequisite properties for the purpose of qualifying an item for still more synergy properties. For example, a +1 acidic burst longsword is still considered a corrosive weapon for the purpose of qualifying to receive the energy surge synergy property.

They don't add double acidic, they only act as redundant qualifiers.

[Captnq]

A synergy property still counts as any of its synergy prerequisite properties for the purpose of qualifying an item for still more synergy properties. For example, a +1 acidic burst longsword is still considered a corrosive weapon for the purpose of qualifying to receive the energy surge synergy property.

They don't add double acidic, they only act as redundant qualifiers.

By that logic, Corrosive is displaced by Acid burst, then acidic burst is displaced by energy surge.

Either the synergy completely displaces the prerequisite or it doesn't. There is no, "It KINDA replaces the prerequisite." That might be the RAI, but it's not the RAW, and frankly, I think energy Damage in Weapons has been nerfed enough.

Both Acidic Burst and Energy Surge state that:
An energy surge weapon functions as a weapon of the prerequisite type (corrosive, flaming, frost, or shock).
An acidic burst weapon functions as a corrosive weapon.

There is no such statement from Earth Elemental Power.

A corrosive weapon states:
A weapon that has this property deals an extra 1d6 points of acid damage on a successful hit.

There is no reason to assume it does not stack.

Both Energy Surge and Acidic Burst Displace Corrosive. You are stating that Acidic burst displaces Corrosive, but Energy Surge ONLY displaces the Corrosive property of Acidic Burst, but leaves the critical activated features alone.

Please explain why you believe that this is the case.

[Nytemare3701]

By that logic, Corrosive is displaced by Acid burst, then acidic burst is displaced by energy surge.

Unfortunately, that's what I'm seeing here.

First you have a corrosive weapon. Then, you add acid burst, which replaces corrosive but adds an identical effect as well as a burst effect. If you add energy surge, it states that it replaces corrosive...which you either (1: Don't have anymore and need to repurchase to qualify) or (2: Do have since burst counts as corrosive, so surge eats your burst enchantment)

Personally, I think you should be able to have a Corrosive Surge+Burst weapon. That's just fine with me. I just don't see how it works by the listed rules without having to re-buy corrosive at some point (which can't work, because you already HAVE corrosive at the time in the form of acid burst).

[Captnq]

Personally, I think you should be able to have a Corrosive Surge+Burst weapon. That's just fine with me. I just don't see how it works by the listed rules without having to re-buy corrosive at some point (which can't work, because you already HAVE corrosive at the time in the form of acid burst).

I see your point, however, I have information to the contrary:

However, after adding a synergy property, the item loses its synergy prerequisite abilities.

Then.

A synergy property still counts as any of its synergy prerequisite properties for the purpose of qualifying an item for still more synergy properties. For example, a +1 acidic burst longsword is still considered a corrosive weapon for the purpose of qualifying to receive the energy surge synergy property.

Now, it counts for purposes of of qualifying, BUT it states that the item loses the item's weapon ability that is the prerequisite for the synergy. Now the Prerequisites for Acidic Burst, Energy Surge, and Earth Elemental power all list Corrosive. Not, Acidic Burst. Not Energy Surge. Just Corrosive.

So, as it reads:
1. Being Acidic Burst gets rid of corrosive.
2. Acidic Burst retains the corrosive WA, but only for the purpose of qualifying for another synergy.
3. Energy Surge gets rid of Corrosive, which has already been eliminated, but that doesn't matter.

I'm seeing this as a PrC that gives you a feat and states, "You don't need any of the prerequisites for this feat, you just qualify."

Acidic Burst comes with automatic qualification for Energy Surge. Just because it's telling you that you no longer can use Corrosive is fine. If I take two classes that say I'm illiterate, do I becomes Doubly Illiterate? If I take two classes that say I can't use armor, do I have to buy Armor Proficency just so I can lose it?

Synergies do not require the prereq as a PRICE. You don't PAY it. You still have corrosive in your weapon. Should Burst ever be dispelled and the rest of the sword's properties remain intact, the corrosive property still remains. You paid for it. It's in there, you just can't use it what you have a synergy in there.

I see from your use of the word "repurchase" that you think that the prereq is a price that is paid to buy the synergy. I see nothing anywhere to indicate this is the case.


To sum up:
Acidic Burst Qualifies Me For Energy Surge, and supresses Corrosive.
When I take Energy Surge, Energy Surge Only Supresses Corrosive, since that is the only weapon ability that it CAN suppress.

[Captnq]

Oh, Unless someone can point to an entry that says different, Burst and Surge's base energy Damage stacks and that's what's going into the Handbook. Expect it by this weekend. I have a birthday to attend to, so I don't know when I'll have time to upload the rough draft.

[Childe]

Will you be indicating the source book or Dragon Magazine issue with each ability? That would be very helpful in my opinion.

[Nytemare3701]

Oh, Unless someone can point to an entry that says different, Burst and Surge's base energy Damage stacks and that's what's going into the Handbook. Expect it by this weekend. I have a birthday to attend to, so I don't know when I'll have time to upload the rough draft.

Good enough for me. As I said, I'm in favor of your interpretation anyway.

[Captnq]

Will you be indicating the source book or Dragon Magazine issue with each ability? That would be very helpful in my opinion.

Oh yes. Fully updated every entry to Magic Item Compendium Compliance, but the book where each original appear is also included. That's what took so long. Checking and rechecking to make sure that the paper trail from various versions was correct, and doing a peer review with some of the biggest power gamers I know to make sure that my assessment of chapter 6 of MIC's rules on synergy was a correct conversion. Look, if you just want the original WA's, I got them all off the internet. Just google. These are in the same format with cross referencing in each -

Crap. The wife calls. It's my B-day after all. Later.

[nijineko]

happy birthday (belated). =D

[Captnq]

Sigh.

I'm not entirely happy with the format and I'm rearranging it so it's not quite so ugly, but most of the actual work is done. So, I'm gonna leave it up to anyone who cares. If you want the 1st draft uploaded now, Post if you want it and I'll go toss up a copy in a handbook right now. If you'd prefer to wait a few days until I finish correcting the format, that's cool too. Just note that much of the data analysis needs to be redone.

[Captnq]

Cool. Now Then, a few Questions

I have the Weapon Abilities Appendixes that break it down by:

A: Cost

• Flat Cost
• Flat Cost (Synergies)
• +1
• +1 (Synergies)
• +2
• +2 (Synergies)
• +3
• +4
• +5

And By Weapon Type (way too long a list to post)

So Now I'm trying to break it down by use:

----Buff
To Hit
Feats
Saving Throws
Skills
Criticals
-----Debuff
Ability
-Damage
-Penalty
-Poison
Antimagic
Fear based
Level Drain
Overcoming Damage Reduction
Physical
-Entangle
-Exhausted
-Fatigue
-Stun
-----Typed Damage
Acid
Cold
Dessication
Electrical
Evil
Fire
Force
Good
Sonic
Vile
-----Movement
Initiative
Others
Self
-----Slayer
Alignment
Element
Misc
-----Summon
-----Untyped Damage
Anti-Living
Anti-Undead
Rage
Sneak Attack
Universal


Are there any other suggested lists/breakdowns anyone might want to see?

Oh, and which ones cause criticals. Would you want a break down by action types? I don't see a use for it, actually.