Weapon Abilities Discussion

[Captnq]

So, I'll start off with all the weapon special abilities

(click to show/hide)

ACCURATE
ACIDIC BURST [SYNERGY]
AGILITY (3.0)
AIR ELEMENTAL POWER [SYNERGY]
ANARCHIC
APTITUDE
AQUAN
AQUATIC
ARCANE MIGHT
ASSASSINATION
AURAN
AXIOMATIC
BALANCE (3.0)
BALANCED (3.0)
BANE
BANISHING
BERSERKER
BINDING
BLASPHEMOUS
BLESSED
BLINDSIGHTED
BLOOD SEEKING
BLOODFEEDING
BLOODSTONE
BLOODTHIRSTY
BLURRING (3.0)
BLURSTRIKE
BODYFEEDER
BRASH
BRILLIANT ENERGY
BRUTAL SURGE
CHANGELING
CHARGEBREAKER
CHARGED (3.0)
CHARGING
CLOUTING
COLLISION
COMMANDING (3.0)
CONSUMPTIVE
CONSUMPTIVE BURST
CORROSIVE
COUP DE GRACE
CRAZED (3.0)
CURSESPEWING
DANCING
DEADLY PRECISION
DEFENDING
DEFENSIVE SURGE
DEFLECTING
DESICCATING
DESICCATING BURST [SYNERGY]
DISARMING
DISEASED
DISLOCATOR
DISLOCATOR, GREAT [SYNERGY]
DISMISSER
DISPELLING
DISPELLING, GREATER [SYNERGY]
DISPLACEMENT (3.0)
DISRUPTION
DISSIPATER
DISTANCE
DIVINE WRATH
DOMINEERING
DOOM BURST
DOOMSTRIKE
DOOMWARDING
DRAGONDOOM
DRAGONHUNTER
DROWCRAFT
DUSTSTORM
EAGER
EARTH ELEMENTAL POWER [SYNERGY]
ENERGY AURA [ELEMENTAL AURA]
ENERGY SURGE [SYNERGY]
ENERVATING
ENFEEBLING
ETHEREAL REAVER
EVERBRIGHT
EXHAUSTING
EXIT WOUND
EXPLOSIVE
FEAR BURST
FIERCE (3.0)
FIERCEBANE [SYNERGY]
FINDER
FIRE ELEMENTAL POWER [SYNERGY]
FLAMING
FLAMING BURST
FLESHGRINDING
FLYING (3.0)
FLYING [Oriental Adventures] (3.0)
FOCUS (3.0)
FORCE
FRIGHTFUL (3.0)
FROST
FURIOUS (3.0)
FURY
GHOST BANE (3.0)
GHOST STRIKE [SYNERGY]
GHOST TOUCH
GRASPING (3.0)
HARMONIZING
HARMONY (3.0)
HEARTFINDER (3.0)
HEAVENLY BURST
HIDEAWAY
HOLY
HOLY SURGE [SYNERGY]
HOMELAND CHAMPION
HONORABLE (3.0)
HORNBLADE (3.0)
HUNTING
ICY BURST
IGNAN
ILLITHIDWROUGHT
ILLUMINATING
ILLUSION BANE
ILLUSION THEFT [SYNERGY]
IMPACT
IMPALING
IMPEDANCE
IMPLACABLE
INCORPOREAL BINDING [SYNERGY]
INITIATIVE (3.0)
INTERCEPTING
JUMPING (3.0)
KEEN
KI FOCUS
KNOCKBACK
LAST RESORT
LIGHT BURST
LUCKY
MAGEBANE
MAIMING
MANIFESTER
MARROWCRUSHING (3.0)
MARTIAL DISCIPLINE
MASTERSLAYING (3.0)
MERCIFUL
METALLINE
MIGHTY CLEAVING
MIGHTY SMITING
MINDCRUSHER
MINDFEEDER
MORPHING
MOUTHPICK
NECROTIC FOCUS
OPPOSABLE (3.0)
PARALYTIC BURST
PARALYZING
PARRYING
PASSAGE (3.0)
POWER STORING
POWERLEECH
PRECISE
PRISMATIC BURST
PROFANE
PROFANE BURST [SYNERGY]
PROFICIENT (3.0)
PSIBANE
PSYCHIC
PSYCHOKINETIC
PSYCHOKINETIC BURST [SYNERGY]
QUICK LOADING
RADIANT (3.0)
RADIANT HOLDING (3.0)
RAVENOUS
RESOUNDING
RETURNING
REVEALING
RIGHTEOUS
ROARING
RUSTING
SACRED
SACRED BURST [SYNERGY]
SACRIFICIAL SMITING
SCREAMING
SCREAMING BURST [SYNERGY]
SEEKING
SENDING
SHADOW STRIKING
SHADOWSCOURGE
SHADOWSTRIKE
SHATTERMANTLE
SHIELDING
SHOCK
SHOCKING BURST
SHRINKING (3.0)
SICKENING
SILENT MOVES (3.0)
SIZING
SKILLFUL
SLOW BURST
SMOKING (3.0)
SNAKEBITER (3.0)
SONIC
SONIC BURST
SOULBOUND
SOULBOUND, GREATER [SYNERGY]
SOULBREAKER [SYNERGY]
SOULDRINKING [SYNERGY]
SPARKLING
SPEED
SPELL STORING
SPELLBLADE
SPELLSTRIKE
SPIDERKISSED
SPLITTING
STALACTITE
STRENGTH SAPPING
STUNNING [SYNERGY]
STUNNING SURGE
STYGIAN
SUBJUGATING
SUDDEN STUNNING
SUNDERING
SUPPRESSION
SURE STRIKING
SWARMSTRIKE
SWEEPING
TAINT RESISTANT (3.0)
TAINTED (3.0)
TELEPORTING
TENTACLE
TERRAN
THROWING
THUNDERING
TORTUROUS (3.0)
TOXIC
TRANSMUTING
TRUESILVER (3.0)
UNHOLY
UNHOLY SURGE [SYNERGY]
VALOROUS
VAMPIRIC
VANISHING
VENOMOUS
VICIOUS
VILE (3.0)
VIPER
VIRULENT
VORPAL
WARNING
WATER ELEMENTAL POWER [SYNERGY]
WEAKENING
WHIRLING
WOUNDING
WOUNDING, GREATER
WRATHFUL HEALING (3.0)

Now, I looked at what others called a "weapon ability handbook" and found them lacking, so, I'm working on one. So, I'm looking for:

1. Any weapon ability that is useless and why you think so.
2. Any weapon ability that is awesome and why you think so.
3. And most importantly, What neat combos do you like?

For example, Wrathful healing gives you half the hit points as healing that the weapon inflicts. Vicious does 2d6 to your enemy and 1d6 to you, so you heal as you hurt yourself.

So, if any synergistic weapon abilty combos stand out to you, please post them. I'm currently in the formatting stage, but I'll be moving onto editorial soon.

[rot42]

Did you see this one? I have found it pretty useful. I think that it is up to date for 3.5, but I had no hand in building it and could be wrong.

edit: URL fixed, sorry.

[littha]

Did you see this one? I have found it pretty useful. I think that it is up to date for 3.5, but I had no hand in building it and could be wrong.

you need to remove the " marks in your URL.

[Captnq]

Did you see this one? I have found it pretty useful. I think that it is up to date for 3.5, but I had no hand in building it and could be wrong.

I was hoping for a bit more then, "This is a great bonus for any barbarian to pick up." Uhhh... why? Why is it? Compared to what? Actually, I didn't give Berserker a 4 out of 5, I gave it a 2. It only works for two-handed weapons. I suppose if you assume all barbarians will use two handed weapons and nothing else, then it's not a big deal. But 4 out of 5? I think brash, or furious  or even crazed might be better.

That's sort of what I'm looking for. I'm looking for specific situations and examples. Combinations that rock. or rock all by themselves. Bloodstone is an empowered vampiric touch. That rocks for +1 bonus.

See what I mean? But, if nobody has any examples, I'll just work it out on my own.

[Jackinthegreen]

Did you see this one? I have found it pretty useful. I think that it is up to date for 3.5, but I had no hand in building it and could be wrong.

I was hoping for a bit more then, "This is a great bonus for any barbarian to pick up." Uhhh... why? Why is it? Compared to what? Actually, I didn't give Berserker a 4 out of 5, I gave it a 2. It only works for two-handed weapons. I suppose if you assume all barbarians will use two handed weapons and nothing else, then it's not a big deal. But 4 out of 5? I think brash, or furious  or even crazed might be better.

That's sort of what I'm looking for. I'm looking for specific situations and examples. Combinations that rock. or rock all by themselves. Bloodstone is an empowered vampiric touch. That rocks for +1 bonus.

See what I mean? But, if nobody has any examples, I'll just work it out on my own.

Considering how two-handed weapons are fairly standard for strength-based builds which most barbarians are, Berserker has a good chance at being useful.  On average it's an extra 4.5 damage, so it beats stuff like Flaming as far as pure damage goes.

By the way, will you be adding sources to the list?

[Tr011]

You said Wrathful Healing. It's really strong for THWF, especially babarian-typish (much damage, much hp, low AC, thus reliable damage-output and a constant damage-input, just perfect for lifeleech). With some sorts of "i damage myself to increase my damageoutput" it's completly broken.

There are some decent on-crit abilities like Cursespewing that go really well together, especially with negative levels. And since the enemy's saves are lowered, don't be afraid of on-crit save-or-suffer effects. They are usually bad but in this case might be good when stacked.

Vampiric + Profane + Implacable might be cool. +2d6 damage vs. living and a stacking 2dmg/round DoT? As long as the enemy doesn't get healed as a swift or no action that is a good damage-boost for TWF-builds.

Fleshgrinding rocks with that ToB PrC that throws stuff. All your thrown melee weapons (that still counts as melee) stay in your target and deal constant damage? Nice.

[Captnq]

Considering how two-handed weapons are fairly standard for strength-based builds which most barbarians are, Berserker has a good chance at being useful.  On average it's an extra 4.5 damage, so it beats stuff like Flaming as far as pure damage goes.

By the way, will you be adding sources to the list?

Well, yes. but my argument is, this is a handbook about weapon abilities. Not a handbook about barbarians. It should be seen through the filter of "Generic Player" not "Player who likes two-handed swords".  To the generic player, Berserker has two strikes. Very specific weapon type, and only usable while raging. True, a useful Weapon ability to the right player, but on a scale of 1 to 4, with 1 being it sucks, 1 being average, 3 being above average, and 4 being everyone could benefit from this, Berserker falls squarely in the Average catagory.

Now, that said, I cannot anticipate every possible combination of class/race/PrC/etc. but that's kinda while I have this discussion thread in hopes that people will point out things I'm missing. Lets say that if you are a halfling, long swords are two-handed swords to you, so that opens up a weird combo if you take aptitude and Exotic weapon masters or some shit. I'd like to hear about crap like that.

But unless you are willing to play a very narrow PC concept, it doesn't have much use. Some people are willing to play, but narrow focus means a decreased value in comparison to something like, oh, any of the Surge abilties from DM2. (Which, BTW, are BROKEN. So glad they updated them in MIC. 8,000 gp and I can hit you with 8d6 of extra damage with four different energy types? What the hell were they THINKING???)

Oh, and yes, everything will have sources because some DMs disallow certain books. I'm setting this up in the same format as The Spell Book.

[Jackinthegreen]

Guessing you were using the halfling reference with 3.0 weapon size rules?  After all, in 3.5 a small longsword can still be used in one hand by a typical small creature.  You've also got a typo in "...on a scale of 1 to 4, with 1 being it sucks, 1 being average..."

Something that will have to be resolved is that some or indeed many of these abilities might be blah in a majority of cases but become quite decent in the hands of characters uniquely qualified to use them or during certain circumstances.  For example, an Aquan weapon during normal play probably won't do much, but if the party knows they'll be kicking fire-subtype ass then it suddenly becomes a very worthwhile investment.

Likewise, some enhancements don't work at all for the average adventurer such as Berserker.

To resolve those you'll likely have three options: Put the enhancement in its best category then make it very clear it only performs that well during circumstance X and is otherwise valued as Y, or put it in its "average user" category at first then add in a caveat that says it performs much better in X circumstances.  In the case of abilities that only work under X circumstances perhaps making a different list of situational enhancements is necessary because it's plainly obvious what it's meant for.  An enhancement that can only work on a two-handed weapon while the wielder rages is a "well-defined niche" that needs to be taken into account to get the true value of.  Though I agree Berserker is average in that situation because 1d8 damage seems too little to compete with other barbarian-oriented enhancements.

One thing to note about those Surge weapons: Each enhancement seems to require its own swift action to use which means they cant be stacked unless you're getting extra swift actions.

[Endarire]

Another possibility is including a separate rating for a likely audience.  A Berserker weapon is rated higher for Barbarians due to the assumed use of the biggest weapon they can find, but rated lower for the general public.

[Unbeliever]

I think a general rating, with a note as to what kind of abilities you are privileging or your own general rubric, would work fine.  That's what the other thread does, and I find that very valuable.

Giving Berserker a low rating, but having a note "better than Flaming if you're a Barbarian, useless otherwise" should do the trick. 

[Nagukuk]

Flesh grinding - ... "Stab" it grinds in wound doing damage as if you were striking with it... 
+
Master slaying - command word strikes the wielder automatically with a critical ...
+
Vorpal   
=
Stab a guy when he gets tired of the damage your weapon is doing to him he pulls it out...

...  then you tell him to cut off his own head with it 


There can be only ...one !

[littha]

Vorpal only triggers on a 20, not on a critical.

[Garryl]

Now, that said, I cannot anticipate every possible combination of class/race/PrC/etc. but that's kinda while I have this discussion thread in hopes that people will point out things I'm missing. Lets say that if you are a halfling, long swords are two-handed swords to you, so that opens up a weird combo if you take aptitude and Exotic weapon masters or some shit. I'd like to hear about crap like that.

Er, what? Longswords are longswords. Small longswords are one-handed weapons for halflings and other small creatures, just like medium longswords are one-handed weapons for humans and other medium creatures. Even if you're wielding an oversized weapon (such as a medium longsword for a halfling), it's still a martial weapon, not exotic, so I don't see how Exotic Weapon Master applies. Unless you're talking about using aptitude to make the exotic weapon abilities apply to non-exotic weapons for some reason, but I don't see what that has to do with halflings and longswords specifically. Please explain, because it sounds interesting but I have no idea what you're talking about.

But unless you are willing to play a very narrow PC concept, it doesn't have much use. Some people are willing to play, but narrow focus means a decreased value in comparison to something like, oh, any of the Surge abilties from DM2. (Which, BTW, are BROKEN. So glad they updated them in MIC. 8,000 gp and I can hit you with 8d6 of extra damage with four different energy types? What the hell were they THINKING???)

How are you getting 8d6 damage for 8000g? That's the price of a +2 weapon (or a +1 flaming weapon or equivalent). Something seems wrong here.

[Nagukuk]

Vorpal only triggers on a 20, not on a critical.

splitting hairs here hehe...


so use an axe?

[littha]

Vorpal only triggers on a 20, not on a critical.

splitting hairs here hehe...


so use an axe?

It doesn't matter. Auto critical does not activate vorpal

[SorO_Lost]

You know what's better than Natural 20s and Vorpel?

Not blowing several thousand gold on a +5 ability that *may* work 5% of the time and taking something that murders 100% of the time for infinity cheaper. Like Sudden Stunning, it's not like they know another round passed

[Captnq]

You know what's better than Natural 20s and Vorpel?

Not blowing several thousand gold on a +5 ability that *may* work 5% of the time and taking something that murders 100% of the time for infinity cheaper. Like Sudden Stunning, it's not like they know another round passed

I have to agree. Frankly, even with using spells to auto 20 a roll, it's far too expensive.

On to rules questions:

Now, I'm updating everything to MIC format. I'm noticing something. Here. Let me show you.

BURNING
- EBERRON CAMPAIGN SETTING (3.5)
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 21) conjuration
Activation: —
A burning weapon has a Small fire elemental bound to it, and has all the characteristics of a flaming weapon. In addition ...

Now, some WA that do this are Synergy WA. They have a Prerequisite of another WA. I'm thinking about half way through 3.5 they started the synergy thing. That being the case, I would assume this one should be a Synergy WA. If I made it a synergy WA, the price would drop to +1 bonus, but it would gain the Prerequisite of Flaming (a +1 level adjustment). Normally I wouldn't consider this, but I'm wondering if Burning is stackable with flaming. If it's not, then this is a Synergy WA, like it or not. If Burning is stackable with Flaming, then this shouldn't be a Synergy WA.

Thoughts?


Also,

...Projectile weapons bestow this property upon their ammunition.

Now, some WAs have this, and some don't. Does that mean that WAs that don't explicitly state that they "bestow this property upon their ammunition." Don't? If so, does that mean those powers which are not bestowed upon ammunition mean if you want it in a ranged attack, you need to buy the WA in the ammunition itself?


Thoughts?

[SorO_Lost]

One of my small rants on the MiC includes the Synergy crap.

See, nothing in Core suggests Flaming and Flaming Burst doesn't stack (two separate abilities) and when this Synergy came out in the DMGII Corrosive and such were not Synergy based. MiC nerfed the already far from underused elemental properties by preventing you from applying multiple of the same damage type in case you were idk, going to the Elemental Plane of Fire and thought it'd be cool to have a Frost Icy Burst Scimitar (it's like +3d6 dmg for +3 enhance).

[Tr011]

Flesh grinding - ... "Stab" it grinds in wound doing damage as if you were striking with it... 
+
Master slaying - command word strikes the wielder automatically with a critical ...
+
Vorpal   
=
Stab a guy when he gets tired of the damage your weapon is doing to him he pulls it out...

...  then you tell him to cut off his own head with it 


There can be only ...one !

Where is Master Slaying from? I couldn't find online the source and don't have my books with me right now.

[Jackinthegreen]

Now, that said, I cannot anticipate every possible combination of class/race/PrC/etc. but that's kinda while I have this discussion thread in hopes that people will point out things I'm missing. Lets say that if you are a halfling, long swords are two-handed swords to you, so that opens up a weird combo if you take aptitude and Exotic weapon masters or some shit. I'd like to hear about crap like that.

Er, what? Longswords are longswords. Small longswords are one-handed weapons for halflings and other small creatures, just like medium longswords are one-handed weapons for humans and other medium creatures. Even if you're wielding an oversized weapon (such as a medium longsword for a halfling), it's still a martial weapon, not exotic, so I don't see how Exotic Weapon Master applies. Unless you're talking about using aptitude to make the exotic weapon abilities apply to non-exotic weapons for some reason, but I don't see what that has to do with halflings and longswords specifically. Please explain, because it sounds interesting but I have no idea what you're talking about.

But unless you are willing to play a very narrow PC concept, it doesn't have much use. Some people are willing to play, but narrow focus means a decreased value in comparison to something like, oh, any of the Surge abilties from DM2. (Which, BTW, are BROKEN. So glad they updated them in MIC. 8,000 gp and I can hit you with 8d6 of extra damage with four different energy types? What the hell were they THINKING???)

How are you getting 8d6 damage for 8000g? That's the price of a +2 weapon (or a +1 flaming weapon or equivalent). Something seems wrong here.

As I mentioned, it's likely he's thinking of 3.0's rules where -the- longsword was a 2-handed weapon for haflings and other small races because weapon size was independent of wielder size.  I have no idea what's happening with the exotic stuff though especially since the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master is based around the 3.5 weapon size rules.  Using the 3.0 weapon rules on a 3.5 class that depends on the 3.5 rules is just asking for trouble.

As for the surge abilities, did you check the DMG2?  They're 2k each in there.  Although they don't actually stack since each one is a swift action, thus unless the character was able to get more than one swift action it's impossible to have all of them go off at once.