Early 9's

[ariasderros]

What is the earliest that it is possible to get the ability to cast 9th level Sorcerer / Wizard spells as a PC?

Spells such as: Wish, Dominate Monster, Summon Monster, Gate, et alli. Mostly Wish.

No Beholder Mage. No Flaws / Traits. Character creation in a "static void" (no outside help with prerequisites).

LA-Buyoff & Bloodlines from UA are allowed. Only one Bloodline, and no customizing.

Bloodlines being great at allowing for skill point prerequisite filling early.

[phaedrusxy]

No flaws makes it a LOT tougher. I doubt you can do it before 3rd... maybe not even then. I do think the quickest trick will be Divine Metamagic applied to Heighten Spell, though. This gives you the technical ability to cast 9th level spells (since Heighten changes the actual level). Then you'll need some feat or class to give you actual knowledge of 9th level spells.

So maybe Human Dread Necro with Southern Magician, Heighten, and DMM: Heighten. Does that work? Throw on Arcane Disciple to get Wish, but that'll bump it up even higher.

[Halinn]

How much TO allowed? Pun-Pun or a hivemind could do it around level 1 or so.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Arias doesn't like the hive 


(not exactly what you want)
Cleric with the DMM heighten stuff
can take the Customize Domain feat
Magic domain gets any arcane 8
other domains can get a specific 9.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777.msg181830#msg181830

I figure a Fester and a Target both (!)
with a Magic Mantle dip 1 can go
Psychic Chiurgery with a psi 9.
(also not exactly what you want)

[Captnq]

Well, there's always Mystic Ranger/Arcane Theurge/Sublime Chord shenanigans.

[Unbeliever]

Well, there's always Mystic Ranger/Arcane Theurge/Sublime Chord shenanigans.

Idle curiosity:  what's that look like?  I tried a brief google search, but didn't find it. 

[ariasderros]

No flaws makes it a LOT tougher. I doubt you can do it before 3rd... maybe not even then. I do think the quickest trick will be Divine Metamagic applied to Heighten Spell, though. This gives you the technical ability to cast 9th level spells (since Heighten changes the actual level). Then you'll need some feat or class to give you actual knowledge of 9th level spells.

So maybe Human Dread Necro with Southern Magician, Heighten, and DMM: Heighten. Does that work? Throw on Arcane Disciple to get Wish, but that'll bump it up even higher.

As I read that, you could Heighten the spells that you can cast to level 9, but you couldn't cast an actual level 9 spell. Even if you took A.D. (Envy), you still wouldn't have the actual ability to cast Wish, even though you could cast Touch of Idiocy, DMM: Heightened to 9.

I hope I'm missing something, because that would be great.

How much TO allowed? Pun-Pun or a hivemind could do it around level 1 or so.

Pun-pun assumes Sarruk, which can't be assumed in every campaign world.
Hivemind doesn't F***ing work, it relies on combining 3.0 rules with the 3.5 rules that over-write them, as well as variant rules that are left up to the DM.
I'd rather stay away from obscene TO, but I can't really quantify what that means very well.
Though TO that works would be better than the above two 

Arias doesn't like the hive 

That's like saying SorO doesn't like "Spellcasting is (Ex)".
The Rules as Written don't like certain things, it is just that I'm the one who brought up the point about the Hive. 3 times, not counting this thread (because I don't want to spell it out again).

(not exactly what you want)
Cleric with the DMM heighten stuff can take the Customize Domain feat Magic domain gets any arcane 8 other domains can get a specific 9. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777.msg181830#msg181830

All of the spells that are relevant are already on the Cleric list too, except for a few that are already on domain lists.
... neat though, TY.

I figure a Fester and a Target both (!) with a Magic Mantle dip 1 can go Psychic Chiurgery with a psi 9. (also not exactly what you want)

I don't understand. What are "a Fester and a Target both (!)"?

Well, there's always Mystic Ranger/Arcane Theurge/Sublime Chord shenanigans.

Sublime Chord gets level 9 spells at its 9th class level. With its prerequisites having two skills at 13, the earliest you could enter it would be level 7 if your DM lets you have all of your bloodline levels early, or level 8 if you can only have 2/3.

[phaedrusxy]

No flaws makes it a LOT tougher. I doubt you can do it before 3rd... maybe not even then. I do think the quickest trick will be Divine Metamagic applied to Heighten Spell, though. This gives you the technical ability to cast 9th level spells (since Heighten changes the actual level). Then you'll need some feat or class to give you actual knowledge of 9th level spells.

So maybe Human Dread Necro with Southern Magician, Heighten, and DMM: Heighten. Does that work? Throw on Arcane Disciple to get Wish, but that'll bump it up even higher.

As I read that, you could Heighten the spells that you can cast to level 9, but you couldn't cast an actual level 9 spell. Even if you took A.D. (Envy), you still wouldn't have the actual ability to cast Wish, even though you could cast Touch of Idiocy, DMM: Heightened to 9.

I hope I'm missing something, because that would be great.

1) I forgot some details (see below)
2)

Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

So if you can cast a spell Heightened to 9th level, you can actually cast 9th level spells.

I did forget that you'll need Extra Slot to get an actual 9th level spell slot (or two 8th levels and Versatile spellcaster). Since Heighten caps out at 9th level, and you actually need a 10th level spell to take Extra Slot for 9th, you'll also need Earth Spell (or some other effect to boost your DMM: Heightened spell to 10th).

So it might require more levels than I originally estimated without flaws. I remember seeing this mentioned before, but had forgotten some of the details.

Perhaps we could also use some other trickery to get that 9th level slot, like a level of Dragon Disciple or something. That's still going to put this at 6th level minimum.

[ariasderros]

Ah, yes, the Extra Slot trick that would let you get 9's as an Illumian Chameleon.
You've re-purposed it for me.
Dragon Disciple wouldn't work, it specifies that the bonus is "as if from a high ability score", and the section on bonus spells from ability scores specifies that you must be high enough level. You can cast a spell Heightened to 9, but it is not because you are high enough level.

Earth Spell is prohibitive due to the whole, another feat as a prerequisite part, but Sanctum Spell might work.

That makes the feat tax: (1) Southern Magician; (H) Heighten Spell; (3) DMM: Heighten; (6) Sanctum Spell; (9) Extra Slot "9th level slot"; (12) A.D. "Envy"

Alternatively:
Bloodline level = 1 for entry to Ur-Priest as your 5th level, exit out to Contemplative for Envy Domain, then Domain Spontaneity (Envy).

level 13, instead of 12, but only using one feat: Spell Focus (Evil). Since Iron Will can be bought. Plus the first 4 levels could be used for loading up on class features.

[phaedrusxy]

Couldn't you also do the whole thing as a cleric, and eliminate a lot of those feats? I don't even remember why I started with Dread Necro now...

Then doesn't it become:

(H) Heighten Spell; (1) DMM: Heighten; (3) Sanctum Spell; (6) Extra Slot "9th level slot"

which could be lowered two more levels by using Human Paragon for the bonus feat,which would also help out with getting your Charisma high enough for DMM.

So that would be at 4th level, right?

[SorO_Lost]

Steel Dragon + Age tricks?

It's  Sorcerer + Cleric (as arcane) & through spells X level Psionics(mental pinnacle) & mid level Maneuvers (Heroics/Mirror Move) with all the awesome gish traits that comes with being a Large Dragon. Best of all unlike any other spellcasting trick, you actually gain HD as a result, increasing your maximum Skill Ranks/Bonus_Feats/HP-Per-Con-Bonus/HD-Caps-with-Polymorph and such.

[ariasderros]

Steel Dragon + Age tricks?

It's  Sorcerer + Cleric (as arcane) & through spells X level Psionics(mental pinnacle) & mid level Maneuvers (Heroics/Mirror Move) with all the awesome gish traits that comes with being a Large Dragon. Best of all unlike any other spellcasting trick, you actually gain HD as a result, increasing your maximum Skill Ranks/Bonus_Feats/HP-Per-Con-Bonus/HD-Caps-with-Polymorph and such.

Sadly, no Dragonlance spells. Else that'd be perfect, and I wouldn't have had to ask.

Couldn't you also do the whole thing as a cleric, and eliminate a lot of those feats? I don't even remember why I started with Dread Necro now...
Then doesn't it become:
(H) Heighten Spell; (1) DMM: Heighten; (3) Sanctum Spell; (6) Extra Slot "9th level slot"
which could be lowered two more levels by using Human Paragon for the bonus feat,which would also help out with getting your Charisma high enough for DMM.
So that would be at 4th level, right?

I see nothing wrong with this. TYVM.

[betrayor]

While dragon disciple wouldn't work, you could use wonderworkder from BoED since it gives you a spell slot of a level you can cast.....
It has stupid prerequisites though.....

[Cyclone Joker]

Level 3. Grey Elf Domain Generalist Wizard 3. 1)Alacritatious Cognition 3)Versatile Spellcaster.

There ya go. Early 9s. Have fun.

[ariasderros]

Level 3. Grey Elf Domain Generalist Wizard 3. 1)Alacritatious Cognition 3)Versatile Spellcaster.

There ya go. Early 9s. Have fun.

Even if, IF, I accepted that you could use your normal spells prepared to fuel V.S., which I don't, and even if I accepted that V.S. could be used to continuously sacrifice more and more spells to work its way up to higher spells, which I don't: You'd still need 64 2nd level spell slots just to get a 9th level casting.

[Cyclone Joker]

Level 3. Grey Elf Domain Generalist Wizard 3. 1)Alacritatious Cognition 3)Versatile Spellcaster.

There ya go. Early 9s. Have fun.

Even if, IF, I accepted that you could use your normal spells prepared to fuel V.S., which I don't, and even if I accepted that V.S. could be used to continuously sacrifice more and more spells to work its way up to higher spells, which I don't: You'd still need 64 2nd level spell slots just to get a 9th level casting.

Not how it works. Read Domain wizard and Elven Generalist. It generates the slots for you.

[SorO_Lost]

Level 3. Grey Elf Domain Generalist Wizard 3. 1)Alacritatious Cognition 3)Versatile Spellcaster.

There ya go. Early 9s. Have fun.

Even if, IF, I accepted that you could use your normal spells prepared to fuel V.S., which I don't, and even if I accepted that V.S. could be used to continuously sacrifice more and more spells to work its way up to higher spells, which I don't: You'd still need 64 2nd level spell slots just to get a 9th level casting.

It's Cyclone Joker, you're being wwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy to rational.

Elven Wizard (RotW) lets you prepare one additional spell of the highest spell level. It doesn't say can cast or can prepare or knowns or anything like that (except you know, preparing a spell has it's own dozen rules to begin with so it doesn't need to).

Illogically, the number of 9th level spells you can prepare is a 0 and zero plus one is omfg one!1!!!1111!1

Of course, I'm not sure what Domain Wizard is doing there, the "trick" is based on shoving your head in holes you shouldn't and trying to make up an excuse on the way out is almost kind of rude. I mean, you don't stop once you're elbow deep in a hooker to apologize, you man up and finish the job like you have some level of pride.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I posted my dragonwraught kobold build for a while, but not here. It is barely faster than a fast casting class too (with buyoff). It does abuse rolls on a template (making it unlikely), but feel free to PM me if you want

[Cyclone Joker]

It's Cyclone Joker, you're being wwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy to rational.

Or, in other words, the basics of the rules are far too complicated for you, and so you just resort to baseless attacks that would be quite funny if they weren't so depressingly pathetic.

Elven Wizard (RotW) lets you prepare one additional spell of the highest spell level. It doesn't say can cast or can prepare or knowns or anything like that (except you know, preparing a spell has it's own dozen rules to begin with so it doesn't need to).

Generalist Wizardry: ... The elf wizard may also prepare one addition spell of her highest spell level each day...

I'm sorry, is this very plain text too complicated for you?

Illogically, the number of 9th level spells you can prepare is a 0 and zero plus one is omfg one!1!!!1111!1
Of course, I'm not sure what Domain Wizard is doing there, the "trick" is based on shoving your head in holes you shouldn't and trying to make up an excuse on the way out is almost kind of rude. I mean, you don't stop once you're elbow deep in a hooker to apologize, you man up and finish the job like you have some level of pride.

Holy hell, you are almost as dense as you are insufferable and crude.

Now, if the great and mighty Soro would demean himself to the level of actually reading text, an absurd idea, I know, he would find this:
Spellcasting
A domain wizard prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard. However, a domain wizard gains one bonus spell per spell level, which must be filled with the spell from that level of the domain spell list (or with a lower-level domain spell that has been altered with a metamagic feat).

So, one simply sacrifices two 1st level slots. They get a second level slot. Generalist Wizardry and the Domain kick in. Sacrifice two of your three(Well, three plus those that are stat bonus-based) slots, get a third level slot. Rinse, repeat, and there you go. 9s. Simple enough for you, or are you just going to babble about something unrelated, and claim that I'm incorrect because you don't like the results?

[ariasderros]

*baiting*

*bickering*

@you both:
Thou shalt not bicker in my thread.
Thou shalt use logic and rules in your argumentation.
Thou shalt not include obvious logical fallacies in your arguments.

End the ad hominem, or GTFO.

So, one simply sacrifices two 1st level slots. They get a second level slot.

No, they do not.

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

So, you gain the ability to cast a spell of a higher level, but you do not actually gain a higher level spell slot, nor the ability to prepare spells of a higher level. Since those two things (spell slot and / or spell prepared) are what are required for those ACFs to trigger, they therefore don't kick in to provide their higher-level benefits that you are espousing.

That is also why I don't agree with the whole "Versatile step-up" that people use to cast higher and higher spells. It ignores the wording of Versatile Spellcaster.

So, while you reference me to the ACF's, the reason I countered by tearing apart V.S. above is because that is the step at which that trick fails to work.

If I am missing something here, please do correct.