Early 9's

[Cyclone Joker]

*baiting*

*bickering*

@you both:
Thou shalt not bicker in my thread.
Thou shalt use logic and rules in your argumentation.
Thou shalt not include obvious logical fallacies in your arguments.

End the ad hominem, or GTFO.

Ah. Sorry about that.

So, one simply sacrifices two 1st level slots. They get a second level slot.

No, they do not.

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

So, you gain the ability to cast a spell of a higher level, but you do not actually gain a higher level spell slot, nor the ability to prepare spells of a higher level. Since those two things (spell slot and / or spell prepared) are what are required for those ACFs to trigger, they therefore don't kick in to provide their higher-level benefits that you are espousing.

That is also why I don't agree with the whole "Versatile step-up" that people use to cast higher and higher spells. It ignores the wording of Versatile Spellcaster.

So, while you reference me to the ACF's, the reason I countered by tearing apart V.S. above is because that is the step at which that trick fails to work.

If I am missing something here, please do correct.

The semantics don't actually matter in this case. See, Elf Wizard only actually cares about your highest level spell. So, even if we ignore the really shoddy wording that could already give us 9s in Domain wizard, it's still pretty simple. You sacrifice two first level slots. Your new "highest spell level" is two. Elven Wizardry and Domain Wizard take effect. Sacrifice those two second level slots, and get a third-level spell. Three is now your new "highest level," and Elven Wizardry and Domain Wizard take effect. Sacrifice those two third-level slots, and... well, you get the picture.

Unless, of course, one wants to use the shoddy wording of the spell to argue, totally reasonably, that Domain Wizard already grants 9s, but even if you take it less permissively, the above works.

[SorO_Lost]

You know, I actually thought his lead in was either null+1 is 1 or bonus spell of each level means you get 9th level spells at level one.

To me, the mere mention of Elven Generalist "failed". No never mind to additional meaning you already had to have spells of that level,Prepare is a powerful word to toss around that directly you to already have the appropriate Spell Slots and Spells Known (known isn't a big deal as a wizard but slots is).

And again to me, Domain Wizard failed for much of the same reason. Again preparation peaks, but also kind of more than that. I suppose you could argue the SRD's is marked variant whereas CC's is AFC so one holds more priority than the other but we both know what the real argument is about: "I want the version that doesn't say I can't as to support this argument with 'the rules don't say no'" Because, it absolutely does say no in the SRD version of the Domain Wizard. And while I was typing this. It appears that yes, he is shooting for the CC version only matters to set up the rules don't say no.

What can I say, he doesn't disappoint.

[Demelain]

For quick reference of relevant text:

(click to show/hide)

Generalist Wizardry:
The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of
her highest spell level each day. Unlike the specialist wizard
ability, this spell may be of any school.

(click to show/hide)

You can use two spell slots of the same level to
cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example,
a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell
slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

(Also, I'm not sure on the rules around here about quoting the books - is this allowed? I'm not breaking some board/legal policy, am I?)

[SorO_Lost]

For quick reference of relevant text:

(click to show/hide)

Generalist Wizardry:
The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of
her highest spell level each day. Unlike the specialist wizard
ability, this spell may be of any school.

(click to show/hide)

You can use two spell slots of the same level to
cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example,
a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell
slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

(Also, I'm not sure on the rules around here about quoting the books - is this allowed? I'm not breaking some board/legal policy, am I?)

Nope, we quote rules all the time. It's fine.

Ironically you posted the ones I have access already to at work rather than Complete Champions version
But if memory serves, CC's is copypasta of the SRDs, minus the Arcane Domain section (edited to fit I'd say).

[Cyclone Joker]

To me, the mere mention of Elven Generalist "failed". No never mind to additional meaning you already had to have spells of that level,Prepare is a powerful word to toss around that directly you to already have the appropriate Spell Slots and Spells Known (known isn't a big deal as a wizard but slots is).

And slots and spells known are both taken care of. I'm not seeing any problem.

And again to me, Domain Wizard failed for much of the same reason. Again preparation peaks, but also kind of more than that. I suppose you could argue the SRD's is marked variant whereas CC's is AFC so one holds more priority than the other but we both know what the real argument is about: "I want the version that doesn't say I can't as to support this argument with 'the rules don't say no'" Because, it absolutely does say no in the SRD version of the Domain Wizard. And while I was typing this. It appears that yes, he is shooting for the CC version only matters to set up the rules don't say no.

The hell are you talking about? There is no Domain wizard in Complete Champion. There's the Domain Access Sorcerer ACF, and the Domain Granted Power wizard ACF, both of which have no relationship to the Domain Wizard variant.

And the SRD specifically says no? Sorry, no such text. So, you're stooping to nonexistent rules now?

And I must say, thank you for introducing me to mysterious ACFs so obscure and so totally magically awesome that they're invisible. 

What can I say, he doesn't disappoint.

Sadly, the same cannot be said for you.

[SorO_Lost]

CC's printed Domain Sorcerer and Wizard Domain powers of which I have no access to look up and is entirely so unlike Domain Wizard it cannot ever be mistaken for such. 

Well the good news is you are using rules that can be quoted. There is an illogical tie in between them.

1. I take Versatile Spellcaster.
Per FAQ effects like Domain Spontaneity don't count, so why would your unmentioned silly ACF work?

2. VA combines my two 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell.
In case you forgot, the VA trick is possible interpretation of what it means to have the ability to cast spells of X level which is also against FAQ btw.

3. Can cast 2nd means Arcane Domain gives the Known, the Spellcasting has always given me the bonus spell.
Rules don't say I no isn't either proof or a point saying you can either. And technically, the rules do say no. Bonus Spell isn't actually a well defined term. Once place it really does come up is in Ability scores, to which it says Int governs bonus spells. Not Domain-only bonus spells, no Dragon Disicple bonus spells, not even ability-granted bonus spells. Simply Int governs bonus spells as a massive board rule. Oh and it also requires a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level in order to earn the bonus spells it governs.

4. Both AFCs?
Generalist Wizard replaces Wizard Specialization, preferring to specialize in General. And like the other AFCs, it's rules are done in a replaces and provides exceptions to the base ability it's replacing. IE it gives a bonus spell but unlike a normal Specialist Wizard, a section that would be of no use unless you know it were replacing already established rules and this is an exception to those, it can be of any School. So while the actual ability is of another name, you are specialized and you're bonus spells are further governed by Specialist Wizard rules. I bring this up now for later use.

A Domain Wizard on the other hand is more than "Not a Specialist Wizard" as it says it is a Wizard that specializes in Domains rather than a Spell School. But more importantly, all variants "swap out" the replaced feature.

So a Domain Wizard has no Specialist Wizard ability to trade away.
A Generalist Wizard has no Specialist Wizard ability to swap out.

5. Generalist Wizard mods Specialist Wizard.
Ahh finally we're here.

One large thing that has been bugging the crap out of me is found in here. See, if a large part of things was the rule's don't say I can't, why in hell would you more rules, more Feats, more ACFs, more things that don't work to do anything?

Specialist Wizard literately says "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day."
Well, a Core-Only Wizard can learn Shapechange from a burrowed Spell Book (know) and rule's don't say I can't (has slot). So lo and behold I've totally skipping a metric ton of bullshit. Still have problems with Bonus Spell, still TO, still obviously never intended to work that way and lots of arguments can be hard it don't. But I've accomplished CJ's "suggestion" is 90% less effort and some how maintained the decency to admit it's not supposed to work like that rather than arguing it as cold hard concrete you need to accept even when the OP has already shot it down. Which btw, while fun to point out, it isn't any real accomplishment.

[Cyclone Joker]

CC's printed Domain Sorcerer and Wizard Domain powers of which I have no access to look up and is entirely so unlike Domain Wizard it cannot ever be mistaken for such. 

Exactly. They are so different, there is no way any intelligent being could ever mistake the two.

Well the good news is you are using rules that can be quoted. There is an illogical tie in between them.

1. I take Versatile Spellcaster.
Per FAQ effects like Domain Spontaneity don't count, so why would your unmentioned silly ACF work?

First off, FAQ? 

Second, in what way is Domain Wizard unmentioned? Or are you having problems with this "Reading" concept again

2. VA combines my two 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell.
In case you forgot, the VA trick is possible interpretation of what it means to have the ability to cast spells of X level which is also against FAQ btw.

Dear god man, GRAMMAR. Use it. I honestly have no idea even what you're trying to say here.

3. Can cast 2nd means Arcane Domain gives the Known, the Spellcasting has always given me the bonus spell.
Rules don't say I no isn't either proof or a point saying you can either. And technically, the rules do say no. Bonus Spell isn't actually a well defined term. Once place it really does come up is in Ability scores, to which it says Int governs bonus spells. Not Domain-only bonus spells, no Dragon Disicple bonus spells, not even ability-granted bonus spells. Simply Int governs bonus spells as a massive board rule. Oh and it also requires a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level in order to earn the bonus spells it governs.

Maybe this reading concept is too advanced for you, so I'll try to keep this simple. Never have I said "The rules don't say no." Versatile Spellcaster gives you casting of second level slots. Then, the Elven Wizardry ability takes affect. This gives you a slot at level 2. Then, you get bonus slots at level two, because you already have a slot at level two.

Please, at least try to keep up.

4. Both AFCs?
Generalist Wizard replaces Wizard Specialization, preferring to specialize in General. And like the other AFCs, it's rules are done in a replaces and provides exceptions to the base ability it's replacing. IE it gives a bonus spell but unlike a normal Specialist Wizard, a section that would be of no use unless you know it were replacing already established rules and this is an exception to those, it can be of any School. So while the actual ability is of another name, you are specialized and you're bonus spells are further governed by Specialist Wizard rules. I bring this up now for later use.

Incorrect. If you will actually read the text(An absurd idea, of course), you would know that the Generalist Wizardry ability of Elf Wizard say "...This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard's ability to specialize." Now, all Domain Wizard says is "A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard." There is no mention of replacement, or any synonym thereof. So, both are totally compatible.

See, the rules are very specific, if you bother to read them.

A Domain Wizard on the other hand is more than "Not a Specialist Wizard" as it says it is a Wizard that specializes in Domains rather than a Spell School. But more importantly, all variants "swap out" the replaced feature.

Incorrect.

So a Domain Wizard has no Specialist Wizard ability to trade away.

Again, incorrect. It is unable to specialize, but it does not replace the ability to specialize.

A Generalist Wizard has no Specialist Wizard ability to swap out.

Correct. It's a good thing Domain Wizard doesn't care.

5. Generalist Wizard mods Specialist Wizard.
Ahh finally we're here.

One large thing that has been bugging the crap out of me is found in here. See, if a large part of things was the rule's don't say I can't, why in hell would you more rules, more Feats, more ACFs, more things that don't work to do anything?

Specialist Wizard literately says "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day."
Well, a Core-Only Wizard can learn Shapechange from a burrowed Spell Book (know) and rule's don't say I can't (has slot). So lo and behold I've totally skipping a metric ton of bullshit. Still have problems with Bonus Spell, still TO, still obviously never intended to work that way and lots of arguments can be hard it don't.

Are you being intentionally dense? I think that is the only way to explain this. Your main method of argument here appears to be make a claim, claim the other person doesn't have evidence, and then babble incoherently about unrelated and absurd topics, with random personal attacks thrown in, while claiming to be correct. And it's really growing quite tiresome.

But I've accomplished CJ's "suggestion" is 90% less effort and some how maintained the decency to admit it's not supposed to work like that rather than arguing it as cold hard concrete you need to accept even when the OP has already shot it down. Which btw, while fun to point out, it isn't any real accomplishment.

Except mine works, the OP misunderstood how it works, and specifically "shot down" methods that the trick doesn't even use. Try again.

[Halinn]

CC's printed Domain Sorcerer and Wizard Domain powers of which I have no access to look up and is entirely so unlike Domain Wizard it cannot ever be mistaken for such. 

Exactly. They are so different, there is no way any intelligent being could ever mistake the two.

And the difference is of course so massive that a person that doesn't have access to CC to check what that difference is would know about it.

[Demelain]

Can a Wizard even use Versatile Spellcaster? It lets you sack two spell slots to cast a higher level spell, but Wizards prepare spells in spell slots. Either they can't use it at all (it doesn't grant a spell slot for them to prepare a spell in), or it effectively lets them spontaneously cast any known spell at the cost of two lower level prepared spells.

[phaedrusxy]

Can a Wizard even use Versatile Spellcaster? It lets you sack two spell slots to cast a higher level spell, but Wizards prepare spells in spell slots. Either they can't use it at all (it doesn't grant a spell slot for them to prepare a spell in), or it effectively lets them spontaneously cast any known spell at the cost of two lower level prepared spells.

It's typically used with some variant that lets wizards cast a subset of their spells spontaneously (Spontaneous Divination, Uncanny Forethought feat, etc). Otherwise, they don't qualify for it.

[Cyclone Joker]

CC's printed Domain Sorcerer and Wizard Domain powers of which I have no access to look up and is entirely so unlike Domain Wizard it cannot ever be mistaken for such. 

Exactly. They are so different, there is no way any intelligent being could ever mistake the two.

And the difference is of course so massive that a person that doesn't have access to CC to check what that difference is would know about it.

Given that the  Domain Wizard isn't in Complete Champion, yeah, someone who doesn't have Complete Champion should be able to tell them apart.

Can a Wizard even use Versatile Spellcaster? It lets you sack two spell slots to cast a higher level spell, but Wizards prepare spells in spell slots. Either they can't use it at all (it doesn't grant a spell slot for them to prepare a spell in), or it effectively lets them spontaneously cast any known spell at the cost of two lower level prepared spells.

Alacritatious Cognition gives you the ability to leave a slot open and spontaneously cast from it. There, spontaneous casting, so you have access to Versatile Spellcaster.

[ariasderros]

@ you both... again.

(click to show/hide)

C.J.: Post #20, thank you C.J. G.J. there.
S.O.: Post #21, so close, then you ended with "What can I say, he doesn't disappoint". Which is baiting again. I realize by reading through the thread to follow that he is really responsive to you baiting him, so do try to resist the urge. Also, in bringing up something other than just the Domain Wizard, especially when you yourself admit that you didn't have access to the material to which you were referring, that is a Straw-Man / Red Herring.
C.J.: Post #24 See, he baited you. You bit. It tainted what could have been an intellectual, constructive rules conversation, and turned it hostile. Hostility tends to make people miss each others point. Ignore him. You are a much better poster than is shown in #24. Just look at #20, nice and well reasoned, you explain where you think you are in the rules in a very clear point-v-counterpoint manner. In #24, not so much, because you've saturated it with snark re-aimed at S.O. Yes, he brought up rules that had no bearing on the conversation, that is either a red herring, or a straw-man. Ignore off topic debating, it distracts from the actual point.

@Cyclone Joker
I'll be blunt, I can forgive you. I don't have the right to criticize someone falling for SorO's troll-baiting.
He got me good once. So much so that I was bouncing back and forth as to whether I was Pissed at him, or myself, for days. Him for baiting me, or myself for falling for it. You see, I opened a thread, asking if something had been done right, and if it was balanced CO, or if it was imbalanced TO, going so far as to espouse that it was the former. I was dead, F***ing wrong. But instead of explaining why in a constructive manner, he... well, I'll let you read the conversation yourself if you wish, just do not rez that thread.
Nevertheless, choose one: ignore him entirely; try to read through to see where the logical points of what he writes are, then only engage him on those points; engage on all the points, just to clear them off of the debate's flow chart, but keep your head on your shoulders.

@ SorO_Lost
I've had a conversation with you before about introducing logical fallacies to your arguments. You did so here. We've discussed with one another before about doing research before posting, you full well admit you mentioned something when you couldn't have done such research.
Just. Plain. What. The. Fuck. Man?
Why you be trollin?
The sad thing is, I actually agree with a few of your points. But there is just no decorum to your debate. Try to keep things dialectic. You have proven yourself to be quite smart about some things, but you need to keep your ego in check, as well as your need to bait / troll.

I'm staying out of whether or not you can take both ACF's, because: all ACF's are in the DM's hands; the ability to take multiple is in the DM's hands; and how they'd interact (especially in this case), is in the DM's hands. In this case, there is equal semantic basis for either interpretation, therefore, both points must be considered valid possibilities until a DM has ruled.


Here's the thing about this trick: it is dependent on the combo of the three effects.
V.S. letting you cast a higher-level spell. E.G.W. reading as being triggered off of this higher-level spell. D.W. triggering off of D.W. to grant both a spell know of the appropriate level and another spell slot to keep the E.G.W. slot company.
E.G.W.:"additional spell of her highest spell level each day"
V.S. doesn't grant a higher-level spell. It lets you cast a higher level, but you don't get to prep it, and it isn't a spell-slot in any way shape or form. That higher-level spell only exists when used. So the only possible way to get this to work by RAW (even then using very loose interpretation) is if you were spending your whole hour of prep-time while using that feat. But since you can't be casting spells during your prep-time, it can not work.

[Cyclone Joker]

Here's the thing about this trick: it is dependent on the combo of the three effects.
V.S. letting you cast a higher-level spell. E.G.W. reading as being triggered off of this higher-level spell. D.W. triggering off of D.W. to grant both a spell know of the appropriate level and another spell slot to keep the E.G.W. slot company.
E.G.W.:"additional spell of her highest spell level each day"
V.S. doesn't grant a higher-level spell. It lets you cast a higher level, but you don't get to prep it, and it isn't a spell-slot in any way shape or form. That higher-level spell only exists when used. So the only possible way to get this to work by RAW (even then using very loose interpretation) is if you were spending your whole hour of prep-time while using that feat. But since you can't be casting spells during your prep-time, it can not work.

Actually, that is incorrect. The only thing Elven Wizardry cares about is potential. The second you are at all capable of casting second-level spells, it becomes your "highest spell level." So, once you are at all capable of casting second-level spells in any way, you get a bonus second-level slot, and the domain slot hitches a ride. You can then just ride that loop up to 9s. Furthermore, the domain spells and slots are entirely separate abilities. Once you are capable of potentially casting a second-level spell, the ability takes affect and you know the spell.

Basically, in case I am being unclear(Which happens depressingly often, to tell the truth), it goes like this.
1)Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrives two second-level slots, because we're starting at level 3 in this case.
2)Domain Wizard takes effect. You are capable of casting your third level domain spell, so you instantly learn it.
3)Third level is your highest spell level. You gain a bonus slot from Elven Wizardry.
4)You gain your bonus slot from Domain Wizard.

One thing you need to remember is that most things in D&D, including this one, only care about capability. Because 3 is your highest spell level, regardless of whether or not you can actually cast it at the moment, you retain the slots. Furthermore, even if, for some reason, you don't buy that, the slots should actually sustain themselves. You gain a third-level slot and a third-level spell. Therefore, three is your highest spell level.

Do note that this could also be done with Heighten and Easy Heighten, but I chose this way because it doesn't use Dragon.

[Jackinthegreen]

The total references:

Versatile Spellcaster

(click to show/hide)

Prerequisite

Ability to spontaneously cast spells,
Benefit

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Domain Wizard

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A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power.   A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it. 

Elven Generalist (Races of the Wild 157):

(click to show/hide)

Generalist Wizardry: A 1st-level elf wizard begins play
with one extra 1st-level spell in her spellbook. At each new
wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that
she can cast. This represents the additional elven insight and
experience with arcane magic.
The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of
her highest spell level each day. Unlike the specialist wizard
ability, this spell may be of any school.
This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard’s
ability to specialize in a school of magic.

Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion 52):

(click to show/hide)

You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination
school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater
level. For example, if you suddenly have need of the 2nd-level
spell locate object, you can sacrifice a prepared 2nd-level spell
(such as mirror image) or any prepared spell of a higher level
to cast it on the spot.

Alacritous Cogitation

(click to show/hide)

Prerequisite

Must prepare arcane spells,
Benefit

If you leave an arcane spell slot open when preparing spells, you can use that open slot to cast any arcane spell you know of the same level or lower. Casting the spell requires a full-round action. You can use this feat only once per day, regardless of the number of slots you leave open.[/url]

If you're going to say something works, the onus is on you to provide the full details and necessary references instead of making people look them up.  I've emphasized what look like a few key points.

First, becoming a Domain wizard from UA does automatically get you the spells as soon as you're able to cast them.  And doing Spontaneous Divination fulfills the requirements of spontaneously casting spells for Versatile Spellcaster.  The problem here is the timing of that because Versatile Spellcaster requires you know the spell before you combine two lower level slots.  If you're relying on the domain to provide knowledge of the spell it won't work.  A case could be made for learning the spell through a scroll or copying another's spellbook though.  It doesn't look like a case can be made for using the Elven Generalist getting extra spells known because the extra spells known happen when the wizard levels and it requires he be able to cast them when he levels, thus it's fairly safe to say it won't happen during prep time.

Second, Versatile Spellcaster does not grant an actual spell slot.  The premise is that the "fused" spell counts as a slot for the next level, but it doesn't, thus it can't be used for another level of Versatile Spellcaster because it requires using two slots to create the power for a higher level spell.

Third, Elven Generalist only grants one extra slot (if you're doing RAI since the technical wording says nothing about spell slots, but it's probably a RAWtarded argument that it doesn't because it's pretty damn clear what they mean) of the highest spell level.  The reading to make it work in this regard is that if your highest normal spell level is 2nd and you fuse two 2nd level spells into a 3rd, you're now able to get an extra 3rd level slot.  If you're then able to combine two 3rd level slots to create a 4th, you'd get an extra 4th level slot and the process would repeat until 9th.  The problem with that is if you use that extra slot on a spell to get the next higher level, it supposedly disappears because it goes to the level you just created. Why is that a problem? Because the spell slot you just used to create a higher spell just disappeared which means it can't be used for the higher spell in the first place and thus the whole thing fizzles.  It's screwy enough that it might be ruled either way though.

Fourth, Domain Wizard and Elven Generalist both replace the wizard's option to specialize, thus you can't have both.  To give a similar example, you technically can't combine the fighter ACFs of Hit-and-Run and Thug together because both get rid of heavy armor proficiency.  You can't give up something you don't have.

Fifth and totally out of left field, Alacritous Cogitation only functions once per day.  If it was needed for the combo you'd only be able to use it for one iteration unless you decided to space the spell upgrades out over however many days.  2nd to 9th would be 7, so a full week of getting the combo going.

Even if we accept that the character bought the higher level Divination spells to know before fusing lower level slots and the Elven Generalist grants extra slots when using Versatile Spellcaster or other higher-level spell shenanigans, the combo fails because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant slots for a chain reaction into itself.

[ariasderros]

Jacks points #1&2 are the same as what I was saying. #3's only relevant part is the admittance of the last sentence. #4 has already been argued, and has been resolved as "ask your DM" due to the wording. #5 is a non-issue.

[Cyclone Joker]

First, becoming a Domain wizard from UA does automatically get you the spells as soon as you're able to cast them.  And doing Spontaneous Divination fulfills the requirements of spontaneously casting spells for Versatile Spellcaster.  The problem here is the timing of that because Versatile Spellcaster requires you know the spell before you combine two lower level slots.  If you're relying on the domain to provide knowledge of the spell it won't work.  A case could be made for learning the spell through a scroll or copying another's spellbook though.  It doesn't look like a case can be made for using the Elven Generalist getting extra spells known because the extra spells known happen when the wizard levels and it requires he be able to cast them when he levels, thus it's fairly safe to say it won't happen during prep time.

Actually, that's not necessarily the case. See, he becomes able to cast the third level domain spell immediately upon being able to cast third level spells. This all happens before you actually use the abilities.

Second, Versatile Spellcaster does not grant an actual spell slot.  The premise is that the "fused" spell counts as a slot for the next level, but it doesn't, thus it can't be used for another level of Versatile Spellcaster because it requires using two slots to create the power for a higher level spell.

Again, this is totally irrelevant. Your highest spell level is all that is needed. It doesn't actually say your highest level slot. Elven Wizardry simply doesn't care.

Third, Elven Generalist only grants one extra slot (if you're doing RAI since the technical wording says nothing about spell slots, but it's probably a RAWtarded argument that it doesn't because it's pretty damn clear what they mean) of the highest spell level.  The reading to make it work in this regard is that if your highest normal spell level is 2nd and you fuse two 2nd level spells into a 3rd, you're now able to get an extra 3rd level slot.  If you're then able to combine two 3rd level slots to create a 4th, you'd get an extra 4th level slot and the process would repeat until 9th.  The problem with that is if you use that extra slot on a spell to get the next higher level, it supposedly disappears because it goes to the level you just created. Why is that a problem? Because the spell slot you just used to create a higher spell just disappeared which means it can't be used for the higher spell in the first place and thus the whole thing fizzles.  It's screwy enough that it might be ruled either way though.

So? This makes no sense. Elven Wizardry grants a single slot of your highest spell level. So, once your highest spell level changes, you gain a new slot.

Fourth, Domain Wizard and Elven Generalist both replace the wizard's option to specialize, thus you can't have both.  To give a similar example, you technically can't combine the fighter ACFs of Hit-and-Run and Thug together because both get rid of heavy armor proficiency.  You can't give up something you don't have.

Actually, this is incorrect. Domain Wizard doesn't actually replace Specialization. It just says a domain wizard cannot be a specialist wizard. So, strictly speaking, they are totally compatible.

Fifth and totally out of left field, Alacritous Cogitation only functions once per day.  If it was needed for the combo you'd only be able to use it for one iteration unless you decided to space the spell upgrades out over however many days.  2nd to 9th would be 7, so a full week of getting the combo going.

No... Versatile Spellcaster and Alacritatious Cognition are two entirely separate and unrelated abilities. AC is only used to grant access to Versatile Spellcaster.

Even if we accept that the character bought the higher level Divination spells to know before fusing lower level slots and the Elven Generalist grants extra slots when using Versatile Spellcaster or other higher-level spell shenanigans, the combo fails because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant slots for a chain reaction into itself.

Again totally irrelevant. You don't use Versatile Spellcaster to gain slots, nor do you use the Versatile Spellcaster spell to do anything. You don't actually strictly even have to cast anything, because, once again, D&D only cares about potential capability.

1)Capable of casting third level spells?
1a)Domain Wizard gives you spell
1b)Elf wizard gives you slot
2)Have a third-level slot?
2a)Gain bonus slots

And then the entire thing repeats from there.

[Jackinthegreen]

How is the character able to know third level spells before using Versatile Spellcaster?  That's the keystone for your first argument.  You seem to be arguing the capability thing but it's a catch 22.  To even have the capability of casting the 3rd level spell through Versatile Spellcaster the caster must know the spell before using the ability.  I specifically emphasized that point in my post above.  It can work if the caster scribed the higher level spells into the book, but relying solely on Domain Wizard to grant access doesn't work because there is a specific order of operations that needs to be followed.  Domain Wizard only kicks in after you're able to cast that level of spell.  Versatile Spellcaster requires knowing the spell before you start the process.

It is very relevant because Versatile Spellcaster explicitly says "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."  Even if the character is capable of using those two 2nd level slots to create a 3rd level spell, he does not get two 3rd level slots to create a 4th level spell.  Yes, Elven Generalist can be interpreted as working there, but that is only one slot while Versatile Spellcaster requires two.

Yes, it can be interpreted that Elven Generalist grants the extra spell slot.  Where are you getting the other spell slot to combine to the next level though?  Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant a slot to cast the higher level spell because it uses two slots one level lower to cast.

Fair enough on the wording, but it does look like arguing semantics at that point since it's fairly easy to see that they meant it to be an ACF that trades specializing for the domain stuff.

Why did you bother with Alacritous Cogitation?  Spontaneous Divination works just fine on its own to satisfy the requirements for Versatile Spellcaster.

It looks like you're double-dipping into Elven Generalist with that list.  Or are you assuming a high Int will provide bonus slots?  If so, at least explicitly say it!  During these kinds of exacting rules arguments you can't leave out important details even if they'd supposedly be obvious.

Here's the info for spellcasters and high ability scores:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters  Note the line that says "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."  That might throw a rather large wrench into this whole thing depending on how it's interpreted.

If you're going with high Int providing the slots above and beyond the caster's base then there might be a case for the trick working.  The two dubious assumptions are that Elven Generalist works to grant a ladder effect once Versatile Spellcaster is used and that a high ability score grants extra slots for higher spell levels than the character can cast under normal conditions.  To get a bonus slot at 8th requires Int 26, so then the question becomes how is the character getting that Int?  That one is at least fairly easy to work with depending on level, gear available, and buffs available.

[ariasderros]

Here's the info for spellcasters and high ability scores:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters  Note the line that says "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."  That might throw a rather large wrench into this whole thing depending on how it's interpreted.

That's another good point.

Also: if this were true:

Second, Versatile Spellcaster does not grant an actual spell slot.  The premise is that the "fused" spell counts as a slot for the next level, but it doesn't, thus it can't be used for another level of Versatile Spellcaster because it requires using two slots to create the power for a higher level spell.

Again, this is totally irrelevant. Your highest spell level is all that is needed. It doesn't actually say your highest level slot. Elven Wizardry simply doesn't care.

Then it would trigger off of Sanctum too. Which is ridiculous.

It is very relevant because Versatile Spellcaster explicitly says "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."  Even if the character is capable of using those two 2nd level slots to create a 3rd level spell, he does not get two 3rd level slots to create a 4th level spell.  Yes, Elven Generalist can be interpreted as working there, but that is only one slot while Versatile Spellcaster requires two.

He's using the bonus spell slot from E.G.W. and the bonus spell slot from D.W.

That said, as I've said, the part were this falls apart is:

Versatile Spellcaster requires knowing the spell before you start the process.

Now to add something I mentioned in passing before.
Even if you point out that V.S. can be used to cast a meta-magicked spell, thus having used a spell of that level, thus D.W. would trigger knowledge and E.G.W. would trigger "you have spell of X level". Remember, that that only exists during that moment of casting the spell.
E.G. if you have 2nd level spells, even though you have V.S., you do not have 3rd level spells. You use V.S. to cast a heightened spell. During that casting, because you currently have a higher spell level, D.W. grants knowledge of a 3rd level spell, and E.G.W. would (in theory) allow you to prepare a higher-level spell. Unfortunately for you, one you finish casting, you no longer have that higher-level casting ability, and thus lose those higher-order abilities. Much like using a spell effect to qualify for a PrC, then having that spell effect dispelled.
Once you lose that which qualified you for a thing, you lose the benefits of that thing.

[Jackinthegreen]

It is very relevant because Versatile Spellcaster explicitly says "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."  Even if the character is capable of using those two 2nd level slots to create a 3rd level spell, he does not get two 3rd level slots to create a 4th level spell.  Yes, Elven Generalist can be interpreted as working there, but that is only one slot while Versatile Spellcaster requires two.

He's using the bonus spell slot from E.G.W. and the bonus spell slot from D.W.

Aha, there's that little entry that grants the extra slots per spell level.  Missed that since it seemed like all the talk about D.W. was for knowing the spell itself, not for having a slot.

[Cyclone Joker]

How is the character able to know third level spells before using Versatile Spellcaster?  That's the keystone for your first argument.  You seem to be arguing the capability thing but it's a catch 22.  To even have the capability of casting the 3rd level spell through Versatile Spellcaster the caster must know the spell before using the ability.  I specifically emphasized that point in my post above.  It can work if the caster scribed the higher level spells into the book, but relying solely on Domain Wizard to grant access doesn't work because there is a specific order of operations that needs to be followed.  Domain Wizard only kicks in after you're able to cast that level of spell.  Versatile Spellcaster requires knowing the spell before you start the process.

He is able to cast third level spells whether or not he is strictly capable at the moment, just like you don't lose access to a bunch of feats and PrCs once you run out of high-level spells.

It is very relevant because Versatile Spellcaster explicitly says "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."  Even if the character is capable of using those two 2nd level slots to create a 3rd level spell, he does not get two 3rd level slots to create a 4th level spell.  Yes, Elven Generalist can be interpreted as working there, but that is only one slot while Versatile Spellcaster requires two.

Spellcasting
A domain wizard prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard. However, a domain wizard gains one bonus spell per spell level, which must be filled with the spell from that level of the domain spell list (or with a lower-level domain spell that has been altered with a metamagic feat).

So, you can burn both the domain slot and the Elf slot to get access to fourth level spells. Elven Wizardry and Domain Wizard then apply. You just ride the loop up to 9s.

Yes, it can be interpreted that Elven Generalist grants the extra spell slot.  Where are you getting the other spell slot to combine to the next level though?  Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant a slot to cast the higher level spell because it uses two slots one level lower to cast.

See above

Fair enough on the wording, but it does look like arguing semantics at that point since it's fairly easy to see that they meant it to be an ACF that trades specializing for the domain stuff.

And I very, very highly doubt they intended one to get 9s this early. It's RAW.

Why did you bother with Alacritous Cogitation?  Spontaneous Divination works just fine on its own to satisfy the requirements for Versatile Spellcaster.

What is the earliest that it is possible to get the ability to cast 9th level Sorcerer / Wizard spells as a PC?

This happens at level 3. Spontaneous Divination occurs at levels five, ten, fifteen, or twenty.

It looks like you're double-dipping into Elven Generalist with that list.  Or are you assuming a high Int will provide bonus slots?  If so, at least explicitly say it!  During these kinds of exacting rules arguments you can't leave out important details even if they'd supposedly be obvious.

I am only if you consider the escalation "double dipping."

Here's the info for spellcasters and high ability scores:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters  Note the line that says "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."  That might throw a rather large wrench into this whole thing depending on how it's interpreted.

Well, actually, this elf is a high enough level to cast it, because, well, he is capable of casting it.

But, that aside, despite his access to ability-based bonus spells, they did not figure into the mix.

If you're going with high Int providing the slots above and beyond the caster's base then there might be a case for the trick working.  The two dubious assumptions are that Elven Generalist works to grant a ladder effect once Versatile Spellcaster is used and that a high ability score grants extra slots for higher spell levels than the character can cast under normal conditions.  To get a bonus slot at 8th requires Int 26, so then the question becomes how is the character getting that Int?  That one is at least fairly easy to work with depending on level, gear available, and buffs available.

While I am open to the possibility that potentially it is required to actually cast the higher level spells to gain access to the slots, which is possible, given the... special wording of Elven Wizardry, intelligence doesn't actually factor in, assuming you have the minimum 19 intelligence, which is why Grey Elf is required.

Here's the info for spellcasters and high ability scores:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters  Note the line that says "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."  That might throw a rather large wrench into this whole thing depending on how it's interpreted.

That's another good point.

Which doesn't actually affect anything. That only applies to ability score-based bonus spells. Not the domain slot.

Also: if this were true:

Second, Versatile Spellcaster does not grant an actual spell slot.  The premise is that the "fused" spell counts as a slot for the next level, but it doesn't, thus it can't be used for another level of Versatile Spellcaster because it requires using two slots to create the power for a higher level spell.

Again, this is totally irrelevant. Your highest spell level is all that is needed. It doesn't actually say your highest level slot. Elven Wizardry simply doesn't care.

Then it would trigger off of Sanctum too. Which is ridiculous.

While it is sketchier than the Versatile Spellcaster, the RAW is pretty solid. Good catch, I totally forgot about that.

Unless one claims, a very, very questionable claim that once must also actually know the spell for it to be one's "Highest spell level," in which case VS is the only way to go.

That said, as I've said, the part were this falls apart is:

Versatile Spellcaster requires knowing the spell before you start the process.

Now to add something I mentioned in passing before.
Even if you point out that V.S. can be used to cast a meta-magicked spell, thus having used a spell of that level, thus D.W. would trigger knowledge and E.G.W. would trigger "you have spell of X level". Remember, that that only exists during that moment of casting the spell.
E.G. if you have 2nd level spells, even though you have V.S., you do not have 3rd level spells. You use V.S. to cast a heightened spell. During that casting, because you currently have a higher spell level, D.W. grants knowledge of a 3rd level spell, and E.G.W. would (in theory) allow you to prepare a higher-level spell. Unfortunately for you, one you finish casting, you no longer have that higher-level casting ability, and thus lose those higher-order abilities. Much like using a spell effect to qualify for a PrC, then having that spell effect dispelled.
Once you lose that which qualified you for a thing, you lose the benefits of that thing.

That's actually not correct. You are both capable of casting and know third level spells. It is your new "highest spell level." Also, the Elven Wizardry slot is pretty much self-sustaining, much like using temporary effects with a PRC that lets you qualify for itself. And, because the EW slot remains for both of those two reasons, the Domain wizard slot stays.

While I am willing to consider that a potential, if someone weak, reading would require a casting of each spell level for EW to take effect. If so, then the earliest one can gain 9s without flaws or outside help is less than 60 hours after attaining level 3.