Author Topic: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?  (Read 6324 times)

Offline Zelkon

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Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« on: December 08, 2012, 09:20:52 PM »
 :tongue Well, I still need help. Ranger, anybody? Know any fixes?

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2012, 09:24:54 PM »
Use the Wild Shape variant? It is Tier 3, after all.

I guess what I'm saying is: what exactly is it about the Ranger that you want to fix?

Offline Prime32

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2012, 09:26:43 PM »
Gaining both combat styles would help, as would a druid-level animal companion (downgrade or remove the druid's while you're at it).

I like how Tome Ranger makes your favoured enemy bonuses universally applicable while maintaining the fluff.

But basically the official "fix" for ranger is Swift Hunter.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 09:29:15 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Zelkon

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2012, 10:06:50 PM »
I guess WS variant is fine.

Offline Keldar

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 01:32:23 AM »
The Mystic Ranger option would be good too.  Particularly if you dug some appropriate Druid spells for it out of the Spell Compendium.

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 01:40:02 AM »
A Mystic Wildshape ranger is an adequate fix. It can compete suitable in a group of tier 2-3 classes, especially if you bring in SotAO absurdity.

Well, that or Swift Hunter. Or, really, if one were to make Nemesis not a pansy, basically-impossible-to-sustain, so-stupidly-good-it-makes-Purity-Sues-look-complex Good-exclusive feat. With all honesty, though, Arcane Hunter  and Swift Hunter are great. Rangers aren't in as much of a need for fixes.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 02:15:54 AM »
Gaining both combat styles would help,

Actually, while you're at it, go ahead and give them all seven. The two core ones plus five more from Dragon 326. That way he can shoot well, shoot far, fight from horseback, wrestle, use a net, hit hard, draw quick, and fight with two weapons, which all together makes the Ranger almost good enough to play Aragorn.

Offline Childe

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 03:24:09 AM »
Turn it into an 8-level class. Apparently MediaFire has removed the T5 base class document, but the gist is this:

The T5 version:
Level 1: 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy, combat style, woodland hunter
Level 2: Animal companion, endurance, perceptive tracker
Level 3: 2nd favored enemy, seasoned explorer, woodland stride - Spellcasting 1 (0)
Level 4: Instinctive tracker, swift tracker - Spellcasting 1 (0)
Level 5: 3rd favored enemy, improved combat style, survivalist - Spellcasting 1 (1)

Plus fleshing out the rest of the normal class:
Level 6: Camouflage, evasion - Spellcasting 1 (1)
Level 7: 4th favored enemy, hide in plain sight - Spellcasting 1 (1), 2 (0)
Level 8: Combat style mastery - Spellcasting 1 (1), 2 (0)

I realize level 8 doesn't really "work" until you reach level 11 traditionally, and that level 5 likewise needs to be tweaked for regular play. T5 assigns the 1st iterative at level 5, and never reaches 11 (it stops at 5), so the scaling isn't perfectly suited, but I think the idea is clear: the class does too little for 20 levels when you compare it to the higher-tier classes. The only real way to compensate it is to refund it levels by accelerating its normal growth.

Then you have 12 levels free for other classes.

Otherwise, the Mystic Ranger as mentioned is good enough.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 03:33:23 AM by Childe »
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 04:35:37 AM »
I combined Ranger with Scout, Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept.
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 12:29:20 PM »
Mystic Ranger spell progression but without losing or delaying any features.

Second the full animal companion progression suggestion.

Bump Camouflage and Hipe in Plain Sight up to levels where they'll actually be worth using (maybe 3 and 6 respectively) and give "improved" versions at later levels that defeat blindsense/sight, tremorsense, scent, see invis, true seeing, etc. 

Also seconding the Tome Ranger comment: Tome Ranger does a few good things for the favored enemy feature. First, it applies the +2 bonus to attack which is something I always thought the core Ranger should have done.

More importantly it gives this ability at lv3:

(click to show/hide)

That would go a long way towards making the favored enemy ability actually relevant.

Offline veekie

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 01:29:37 PM »
Looking at the core of the Ranger, it's basically the Nature answer to the Paladin and Duskblade. So without meddling overmuch with magic access, I'd actually make them the BFC warrior, utilizing and modifying terrain to suit their choice of fighting style. While Wildshape Ranger has it's place, it's too specific a concept to be used as the core ranger in itself.

So:
Fighting Styles - Skipping the stat requirements allows you to pull a few tricks. The main issue is really just not getting the feats fast enough, and redundancy when put against people who invested their feats in the styles already. Easy fix is to make each style a list of bonus feats separated by level, and then grant them somewhat more often, and for some things(like TWF) early. Cap it out with their distinctive pseudofeat that goes above and beyond what the feats normally allow.

Favored Enemies - Nice idea, but too inconsistent in practice. While the paladin can count on at least half the enemies he encounters being evil or otherwise smite-able, ranger favored enemies are too niche to go the distance. They might work better as something like Ranger Tactics, where you get a set of specials that allows you to defeat particular categories of opponents more easily by countering their favorite tactic, as well as options that excel in certain categories of terrain.

Ranger spells - They're spells, what's more to say?

Animal Companion - Ignoring the other problems of Second PC class features, it's just plain too late to be useful as a combat buddy, and taking monsters from MMs is just asking for trouble. Make an animal companion pseudoclass, and grant it from level 1. Or substitute it for environment rigging powers like instant traps and snares.

Some minor skill abilities to make up for skills sucking may be a plus.
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Offline SquishE

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2012, 01:38:30 PM »
Is there a link or summarization as to why the Wild Shape variant is considered so powerful? Being a Medium creature seems like it'd be outgrown rather quickly.

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 01:39:42 PM »
Is there a link or summarization as to why the Wild Shape variant is considered so powerful? Being a Medium creature seems like it'd be outgrown rather quickly.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 12:29:45 AM »
Basically yeah. Dig through the Monster Manuals for a creature with nice stats.

Become that creature. Done.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline SquishE

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 03:35:12 AM »
Basically yeah. Dig through the Monster Manuals for a creature with nice stats.

Become that creature. Done.
See that' where I think I'm not seeing the whole picture. Most medium animals wouldn't be competative  beyond about 9th level. Is there cheese to broaden your possible selection?

Offline veekie

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 04:25:53 AM »
As Cyclone Joker said, the Legendary Ape is a suitable target, and it's humanoid enough to arguably use human gear, which means Wild Shape acts as a permanent base race upgrade basically.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline SquishE

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 09:49:29 AM »
Ah, balls. I'm sorry cyclone, I had totally missed what you said.

Yea that's pretty cheesy.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 10:16:33 AM »
Ah, balls. I'm sorry cyclone, I had totally missed what you said.

Yea that's pretty cheesy.
How exactly is that cheesy? That's what most people wind up doing with the druid (pick a form, stay in it all the time), but it's considered "normal" for them...

So picking a humanoid form is more cheesy than running around as a tiger for pounce + rake, on top of your super casting and uber companion?
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Offline SquishE

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 02:46:10 PM »
How exactly is that cheesy? That's what most people wind up doing with the druid (pick a form, stay in it all the time), but it's considered "normal" for them...

So picking a humanoid form is more cheesy than running around as a tiger for pounce + rake, on top of your super casting and uber companion?
I suppose I'm having a grognard knee-jerk reaction then. Because not only is the WS variant outside the 'typical' concept of being a ranger, but the PrC takes it a step further and simply transform-ifies you magically into a 'near-druid!'. So I guess I see it as cheesy because it doesn't really empower the RANGER it turns the ranger into another class using one of the other class's slices o'cheese. Why not just turn the ranger into a were-something-or-other by that point? Or better yet, just roll a druid? Because by that point you've given up almost everything that has ranger-flavor to it.

Man, now I want some Doritos... or nachos. Or pizza.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Last one, I promise: How would you make the ranger better?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 02:53:26 PM »
But the ranger has always been a "near-druid"... It's basically a hybrid class between fighter and druid. My 2nd edition ranger used to cast Polymorph Self on himself and turn into all kinds of other critters. So did my 3.0 version of the same ranger. They only removed Polymorph from their spell list in 3.5 (which really pissed me off back then...). So it's not like rangers being "near-druids" is a new thing...
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