Players too nice, what do.

[Wrex]

So, I have a...fairly intresting problem. My players are -too- nice, particularly in regards to loot distribution. Normally, SOP in games I've DM'd was to distirbute magic items to those who wanted them, and distribute gold to the rest in an effort to make things more equal. They don't do that. Rather, they distirbute magic items then divide the gold equally, causing some players to fall behind. I've remedied the situation to some extent by saying "If your WBL is less than X level +50% you may credit yourself a corresponding amount of gold", But it feels hamfisted, and requires them to track the value of all their equipment.


Any suggestions on what to do here?

Note: I have tossed quite a bit of good stuff at the people who can't optimise correctly, and insisted on playing Paladin, or fighter, or what have you, generally consisting of free LA. It seems to be working, for the moment.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Is their method negatively impacting the game now or are you afraid it might in future?

Have you tried pointing out that magic items cost gold and therefore [equal share of gold+magic item] > [equal share of gold] and suggesting that the party take that into account when distributing loot?

Giving extra gold to balance things out seems like it would stretch suspension of disbelief as well as providing an incentive to distribute loot even more unevenly (since that would mean more extra gold.)

[Wrex]

Mostly, I've fluffed the extra gold as taxes from the land they control and defend from the horrible cyclopean forces of Xoriat.

It isn't negatively impacting the game to a large extent, currently, but it is visible.

I have tried that, they generally claim that their method is "the only fair way".

[Halinn]

I have tried that, they generally claim that their method is "the only fair way".

They don't think that magic items have a value that could be measured in gold pieces?

[Jackinthegreen]

It seems like your best recourse is to give gear somewhat equally to the group too.  So if two people each get a 4k item then the other two should each get a 4k item.

Or you could let them know that the people who are falling behind are doing so because they're not getting as much gold as you planned for them, thus in an effort to help bring them up say that it's not fair for them to lag behind due to gold going to the people who got items too.

[rot42]

Ask your players to send you lists of magic items that they might like to see turn up in treasure in the next few levels. This might encourage the proper players to speak up, and has the side benefit of helping you plan.

If you are socially adept, you might try influencing them to let the person most in need of gear choose first, either subtly ("I think Alex was last to choose last time" or "Chris, this item synergizes well with your playstyle") or blatantly ("According to my notes, Taylor is currently the least geared up").

[Kasz]

You could also introduce gear with requirements.

"This is Sir Walter the Noble's codpiece! it grants 8AC with no max dex bonus and once a day allows the user to charm person with no save, it requires at least 1 paladin level to function, otherwise is just a normal but stylish codpiece."

Using things like feats, alignments and class levels to get the gear to the right person. Obviously not on every magic item... but the major ones aimed at fixing the WBL intends they get to the right party member.

Only downside is if party all has Use Magic Device.

[Hallack]

They don't total up the value of the loot and then divide that among the characters?  Letting the characters to buy loot from the party at the value it would be sold?

That is, everyone gets equal share of the loot value.  Those who want loot found end up getting it at half the market value (as that is the GP party would have gotten by selling it).

[Nunkuruji]

Well, without knowing anything more about the party

From a teamwork/party optimization perspective, certain loot and costs benefit some party members better at various stages of the game.

Early, it seems that dumping AC loot into the party tank is not such a bad thing. However, that enchanted armor, ring, amulet, etc. get costing in terms of WBL, but it can put him ahead of the curve and allow him to stand in the way with far less risk.

At the higher level, a few more AC isn't going to matter, but putting some Wonderous item in the hands of the Wizard that lets them uber-nova can end encounters a lot faster for the party.

Typically my PCs handle in such a way to make sure that everyone is getting the share they need in order to fulfill their role and feel useful, regardless of how the GP value skews.

[Unbeliever]

Typically my PCs handle in such a way to make sure that everyone is getting the share they need in order to fulfill their role and feel useful, regardless of how the GP value skews.

Ditto.  You might pitch it to them, as it helps smooth out some of the mechanical idiosyncrasies. 

Alternately, just give them the items they need to catch up, or the opportunity they need to do so.  Class specific items are good, as would be a famed weapon or armorsmith who could do some great work, but that would only benefit some of the PCs.  I think they won't be too upset about it if they know there's a specific problem that you are trying to remedy. 

[nijineko]

when i played 1st ed actively, over 20 years ago, that is how we divided loot. people got whatever they could use from the items, with actual people in combat getting dibs. the rest was split up evenly. the dm would throw in the occasional cursed or quirked (not quite cursed, but wonky) item to shake us up. it turned out to be fun for us. back then.

more recently we figure out who needs what the most and make that happen somehow. so last loot division, we gave as many helpful items as we could to the weakest member of the party, put remainder items in the group stash for either backup, selling, or for the artificer to power craft points with, and split the non-item stuff evenly. sometimes we'll loan out our portions so a given player can get something nice for themselves.

[Halinn]

Come to think of it, we divided loot like this in the last PF game I played in (loot division isn't a topic I think particularly much about). It actually ended up so that the casters generally got less loot, because items that specifically help a Summoner or a Wizard were rarer, and generic stuff such as rings of protection +X etc usually went to the people who would be standing up front in fights. It might even serve as a party balancer to have loot be given unevenly like this.

[Wrex]

See, it's that either I have to hand generate all loot, which is tedious and uses up large quantities of time, or risk unfairly advantaging the players "willing to take what you guys don't want" and promptly selling it and keeping the gold.

[Jackinthegreen]

Perhaps recommend the ones who are "willing to take what you guys don't want" should then distribute the gold evenly to the party?  Or maybe that wouldn't work...  I can't tell right now with all the numbers going everywhere in my head.

[kitep]

I run one of those magic-shop-on-every-corner, death-is-just-a-speed-bump type of worlds.  Bad guys tend to have a contingency teleport to escape when they're dead or incapicatated.  So after the big fight, I just tell them they loot the place and get X gp worth of loot.  Then they run to the corner store and spend as desired.  Then I started telling them the same thing with lesser battles.  Ie, not "you loot the body and get a chain shirt, long sword, and 3gp", I just say "you loot the body and after selling it, you'll get 30gp".  Easy peasy.  Won't work for all groups, but works for us.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Perhaps recommend the ones who are "willing to take what you guys don't want" should then distribute the gold evenly to the party?

This sounds like a good idea to me.

If they're looking for fairness it seems pretty mandatory. I mean, there's no way to argue that "X gets [equal share of gold], Y gets [equal share of gold + 50% value of magic items]" is fair.

I'd also be interested to know who exactly is promoting the "it's the only fair way" idea. If it's one of the people who tends to "take what you guys don't want" and sell it... I would say that your players being too nice is not the problem you have.

[Wrex]

Oh no, It's two completely different people. And, to be fair, the greedy one -is- spending most of it on wands and other items that benefit the party.

[Kasz]

When I play an artificer I steal everything... then I redistribute it as I see fit into wands and gear for myself and others... but we discussed this outside of the game first... I was elected party quartermaster.

You can substitute "artificer" with "Player with highest charisma / appraise / bartering skill" Or have one player value the gear... High Int Appraiser... and one sell it, born charismatic speechartist. The speechartist then is given a shopping list and buys things for everyone.

Alternatively put the players in a guild and give them "requisition points" at the end of every mission or whatever have the players awarded Req points (100gold = 1 req point or something simple) and give out the majority of the WBL in Req points...

So you're given req points, you need new armour, you request it, later that week a guild lad drops off a crate from the armoury for you. You walk it down to the guild mage and use the rest of your req points getting it enchanted.

Then about 20% of the WBL is just found on people in the wildnerness... the occasional magical sword or amulet on passing bandits / troll stomachs / Sasquatch hordes.

[Arturick]

Standard operating procedure in just about every game I've been in has been:  Magic loot goes to whoever can use it.  Unused loot goes into the sell pile.  Gold is split evenly.  If magic loot replaces old loot (Fighter replaces his +1 Banded with +2 Full Plate), then the replaced loot is handed down to another party member who can use it, or gets added to the sell pile.

The concept of "buying" the magic loots out of the party fund always kinda broke down like this in my head...

Arturick - "Sweet, another +2 shortsword.  Dibs on that."

Other Player - "You'll have to buy it out of the party fund."

Arturick - "Bullshit I do."

Other Player - "Well, otherwise you're getting a better split on this haul."

Arturick - "And your point is?"

Other Player - "..."

Arturick - "Okay, I'll make you a deal.  I'll buy the shortsword, meaning that it exists for my benefit alone, and I will make use of it after the next monster kills you."

Other Player - "You have a point."

[veekie]

Standard operating procedure in just about every game I've been in has been:  Magic loot goes to whoever can use it.  Unused loot goes into the sell pile.  Gold is split evenly.  If magic loot replaces old loot (Fighter replaces his +1 Banded with +2 Full Plate), then the replaced loot is handed down to another party member who can use it, or gets added to the sell pile.

Likewise, we did this until nobody could use the loot, then we render it down to cash and split it.