[Discussion] Team Awfulot

[Drammor]

Our theme is undeath. Either we're undead, we make undead, we're pro-undead... you get the idea.

This is our discussion thread.

We could sure use an artificer at this point.

Discussify!

[bobthe6th]

Well, if I can make a char over winter break, I have an idea for a brain in a jar/Nord's blade. Still need to make the build work, but as of now I think he can roll as a crazy, crazy face. swordsage 1/Dark trance impulse mage 1, going for some sneaky abilities+decent blasting/healing.

[Drammor]

Just remember not to spread yourself too thin, Bob.

[bobthe6th]

Ah, but it all energizes. It folds together with the base race, and doesn't lose a ton. The build gets better as it levels, and it's to hit is god awful, but it has a back up will save based spamable attack. Has debuffs, some very nice utility maneuvers, healing from his own spell shaping(undead+negative energy), and a good amount of PLAs. Still working out the details, and would have to see the rest of the team to see if he needs to optimize for stealth(thats no moon...) or for diplomacy. Would need to actualy make the build a reality, but I think it works in the abstract.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

How do you guys feel about vampires? Specifically, Vampire Thrallherds, with Psion (possibly StP Erudite) levels? I'd probably take an Artificer as my thrall so I could fill that niche as well (assuming a lv5 artificer is sufficient.)

Also, what is your position on affiliation for the party? Would you prefer people to go Fallen or are alternative affiliations alright?

[bobthe6th]

Looks... limiting. At least it doesn't die in sunlight, and I don't think the city has a lot of running water...  does it?
Thrallherd is as always powerful, and provides a nice arbitrarily large number of minions. StP Erudite... sounds like it won't synergies with charisma. But I have heard it is powerful.

Depends. As I have yet to see a full party, or even what the original group members are thinking but the fallen give some nice affiliation bonuses for undead. Though I personally see no problem with any other affiliation...

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Sunlight is an issue but having minions helps with that (since my build already includes an Enveloping Pit I can just hop in there and have my cohort carry me whenever sunlight or running water would be a problem) and there's always Liquid Night from Libris Mortis. Gives sunlight protection for an hour for 150 gp (50 if crafted.)

Lack of Cha synergy could be a problem but is actually less of one than it might be. With the array we're using I can afford a 16 base Cha with no trouble and that gets me a 5th lv Thrall and 5 Believers.

16 cha (probably 18 since my thrall can craft cheap +2 items) does mean lower max blood charges but the primary draw of Thrallherd is that I can take as my Believers, lv1 Binders of my base race who Bind Naberius. They heal ability drain at a rate of 1/hour and with con 15 they can provide between 12 and 20 or so charges/day each. Then I stick them in the Enveloping Pit (working on methods to make sure they don't suffocate) and carry them around with me so I can replenish charges at need.

[Drammor]

Looks... limiting. At least it doesn't die in sunlight, and I don't think the city has a lot of running water...  does it?
Thrallherd is as always powerful, and provides a nice arbitrarily large number of minions. StP Erudite... sounds like it won't synergies with charisma. But I have heard it is powerful.

Depends. As I have yet to see a full party, or even what the original group members are thinking but the fallen give some nice affiliation bonuses for undead. Though I personally see no problem with any other affiliation...

Tshern was talking about doing a ghost cleric and serving as our scout.

I'm tinkering with a dread necromancer with corpsecrafter and destruction retribution for group heals and aggro. I'm waffling on whether to give it a couple of levels of vasuthant, though.

Sorry for being a bit less active lately, but adjusting to the schedule of my new job has been a little difficult.

Sunlight is an issue but having minions helps with that (since my build already includes an Enveloping Pit I can just hop in there and have my cohort carry me whenever sunlight or running water would be a problem) and there's always Liquid Night from Libris Mortis. Gives sunlight protection for an hour for 150 gp (50 if crafted.)

Lack of Cha synergy could be a problem but is actually less of one than it might be. With the array we're using I can afford a 16 base Cha with no trouble and that gets me a 5th lv Thrall and 5 Believers.

16 cha (probably 18 since my thrall can craft cheap +2 items) does mean lower max blood charges but the primary draw of Thrallherd is that I can take as my Believers, lv1 Binders of my base race who Bind Naberius. They heal ability drain at a rate of 1/hour and with con 15 they can provide between 12 and 20 or so charges/day each. Then I stick them in the Enveloping Pit (working on methods to make sure they don't suffocate) and carry them around with me so I can replenish charges at need.

If you make your thrall specialize in Wondrous Items, this gets substantially easier. Just remember that there's a slight surcharge whenever your thrall's CL isn't high enough to craft an item.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Artificers get the +2 to effective CL for crafting so it'll be 7, which is good enough for +2 bonuses and quite a few of the more generally useful items.

The main thing I'm worried about regarding making the Artificer a thrall, rather than a PC, is the inability to take flaws which means 2 fewer feat slots for things like Extraordinary Artisan. Still, I think I can swing a decent build.

[bobthe6th]

Tshern was talking about doing a ghost cleric and serving as our scout.

I'm tinkering with a dread necromancer with corpsecrafter and destruction retribution for group heals and aggro. I'm waffling on whether to give it a couple of levels of vasuthant, though.

I must admit that all of occemelos classes are really, almost supernaturally attractive. A DN would be very nice, especially with lord of the uttercold... though I would note the 25gp per 1d6 healing in onyx.
Would be nice to have at least one turn immune character in the party.

The monster seems... nasty. Could be fun, and probably a nice addition to the party.

So either way, looks fun.

(sorry if I seem overly pessimistic, I am just trying bringing up flaws I see in builds when they are still vague... before people spend days making the characters....)


edit: undead means martial study is needed to grab skills... and thinking doll judgment to add some range/stealth with fine sized dolls. Might need to find out what lebriam of battle skills translate to...

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

You may want to look into skill retraining (PHBII, pg194) at lvs 5 and 6. Assuming you don't need to retrain any feats at those levels you can switch up to 4 ranks from one skill to another. Combined with sirpercival houseruling cross class ranks to cost the same as in class ranks, that will take some of the sting out of the no class skills thing.

[bobthe6th]

well lacking 2 abilities takes a lot of the sting out of no class skills... but your point has merit. I will look into retraining.

Also, after looking through the schools... their are some good options. will be fun to try to get it all into 7 maneuvers+feats.

[Drammor]

Well, if the party is still in need of a brute, though, I can also go with angel of decay 2/vasuthant 2/wight 2. It would have 26 charisma and gain the modifier from it as bonus HP per level, a bonus on saves, a deflection bonus on AC, a natural armor bonus on AC, and bonus damage on each attack (it has four natural attacks). It would be an in-development creature, but after a couple more levels, I'd be able to start giving it totemist and other shiny levels.

Oh, and it would have blindsight 30 feet and cause the 60 feet to be shadowy (thus protecting the vampire) and force 3 re-rolls per day. And can cause 1d3 Str damage with a successful slam attack (Fort 21 to negate) up to 48 times per day. Fly at 30 feet... the perks kind of go on for a while.

After cursory research, I've found that I can add a bite attack, a gore attack and rending damage to that list, making it a total of 2 slams, 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 gore, 2d6 rending if both claws hit and all natural attacks count as magic weapons for overcoming DR. If I did go with Totemist, then at level 9, I could add a tail attack and 2 tentacle attacks to that list.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

You seem to be very fond of multiclassing among monster classes.

I'm not sure if we really need a beatstick/meat shield or not. If we do, my other concept was Knight5,Awakened Skeleton1 making use of the Paladin's Mount that Knights get in this game to either go cohort mount or be a skeletal goblin and get a Worg.

We may not need it, though, as the Vampire build can toss out Dire Wolves via its SNA imitating ability, can turn into a Dire Wolf itself for more temporary beef, and can have an enslaved spawn who can similarly wolf out (and who I might be inclined to optimize toward doing so.)

On the other hand, that Vasuthant build looks fun and scary. Not sure if that or a Dread Necromancer would serve us better...

Of course, since both of those concepts involve high charisma, you could grab Undead Leadership and make a lower level version of whichever one you don't end up playing.

[Drammor]

The vasuthant build is just vasuthant 2/dread necromancer X, since the good stuff is HD-motivated.

[bobthe6th]

The vasuthant build is just vasuthant 2/dread necromancer X, since the good stuff is HD-motivated.

This is true... though it will delay animate dead by 2 levels and stops you from getting that one race for cheesed fell animate. So are the benefits worth waiting till 10th level to animate dead?

[sirpercival]

The vasuthant build is just vasuthant 2/dread necromancer X, since the good stuff is HD-motivated.

Needs more Darklight Wizard.

[Drammor]

Needs more Darklight Wizard.

Well, hey. If that's permission, then I'll just go with Vasuthant 2/Wight 3/Angel of Decay 1 rebuild to Vasuthant Darklight Wizard 5/Totemist 1 with Undead Meldshaper and Extra Spell (for Animate Dead), and you and I can figure out what Darklight Wizard does to racial abilities gained through racial levels but lost from the Darklight Wizard transformation and then after that I'll go to town when, at level 7, I take my second totemist level and benefit from my +6/+1 BAB and my nine natural attacks and +13 damage mod.

[sirpercival]

Needs more Darklight Wizard.

Well, hey. If that's permission, then I'll just go with Vasuthant 2/Wight 3/Angel of Decay 1 rebuild to Vasuthant Darklight Wizard 5/Totemist 1 with Undead Meldshaper and Extra Spell (for Animate Dead), and you and I can figure out what Darklight Wizard does to racial abilities gained through racial levels but lost from the Darklight Wizard transformation and then after that I'll go to town when, at level 7, I take my second totemist level and benefit from my +6/+1 BAB and my nine natural attacks and +13 damage mod.

Lol.  You and I both know that was facetious, and not permission.   bob's mention of Animate Dead just made me think of it.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Vasuthant2, Nord's Blade4 seems like it would be good. I can't think of any way to boost its Cha without taking Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid, but hybriding with a Magic Blooded, Unseelie Fey, Cambian yields +7 Cha and 4 fate dice for 2 feats (4 for 2 is a better ratio than luck feats can give and the Vasuthant reroll ability both continues to scale with level and can reroll litterally any die, yours or someone elses.)