Why is practically everyone against traps?

[Vicorth]

As a long time player getting bored of watching the rogue roll to search every conceivable 10' square in a dungeon we KNEW was trapped, I must say that I love the idea of taking for granted the "take 10" as part of what a rogue does. That lets everyone get on with the game and the rogue (or the artificer) is still useful as a trapfinder.

We often played with a DM who was very precise in controlling the party's resources and did make use of traps to consume them, as well as restricting our recovery time in one way or another. Getting a good night's sleep in an enemy dungeon 2 hours after arriving was considered silly to contemplate. His philosophy was that he did not need to kill us outright, but to deplete our resources faster than we could recover them if we didn't think about using them well. If we healed every point of damage from every trap, we might not have enough left to survive the monsters further in.

Currently I am running a game and using a variant wounds and healing system I found http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/the-healing-imperative-2/. I like it because it takes HP somewhat out of abstraction and prevents things like lesser vigor from fixing the bigger hits completely. There is an element of reinjury if the wounds aren't addressed as well as the damage numbers.

All that being said, I agree that the traps as simple standalone challenges are pretty pointless. I always utilize them either as a warning for the monsters to prepare for action, or to tenderize dinner a bit before or while beating the stuffing out of it.

[Arturick]

If we healed every point of damage from every trap, we might not have enough left to survive the monsters further in.

Not quite sure how the math works on this one.  You've either got enough healing to cope with the traps + monsters or you're dead.  Also, if you DON'T heal all the damage from the trap, you increase the chances that a solid hit/critical will outright kill a party member.

[Vicorth]

There's a difference between burning a spell that heals for 10 points to fix a wound of 2 or 3 points and waiting for a more substantial need. Granted, it gets harder to keep the resources so tight when wands or staffs of healing spells come into play, but traps that inflict different kinds of handicaps start showing up. The point is to use the traps as a way of increasing the threat level without the arms race that is bigger and bigger bad guys every single time.

I love the idea of players running into encounters either far above or far below their own skills. It gives the world a feeling of taking place without the PCs and not just scaling to them everywhere they go. So the kobolds they run into at level 10 have a distinct possibility of having traps that take the party down a few pegs before they ever see an enemy. Everything can balance just right to increase tension without the fudging that may be required being too obvious.

[InnaBinder]

There's a difference between burning a spell that heals for 10 points to fix a wound of 2 or 3 points and waiting for a more substantial need. Granted, it gets harder to keep the resources so tight when wands or staffs of healing spells come into play, but traps that inflict different kinds of handicaps start showing up. The point is to use the traps as a way of increasing the threat level without the arms race that is bigger and bigger bad guys every single time.

I love the idea of players running into encounters either far above or far below their own skills. It gives the world a feeling of taking place without the PCs and not just scaling to them everywhere they go. So the kobolds they run into at level 10 have a distinct possibility of having traps that take the party down a few pegs before they ever see an enemy. Everything can balance just right to increase tension without the fudging that may be required being too obvious.

If kobolds are still posing a credible threat to your party at 10th level, you're playing a different style of D&D than most folks I know (which is not a criticism).  If kobolds are still posing a credible threat to your party at 10th level AND they can't afford to all have Healing Belts, wands of Vigor, and wands of (lesser) Restoration sufficient to deal with the injuries, then you're playing a game with a radically different assumption about WBL as well.

[ImperatorK]

If kobolds are still posing a credible threat to your party at 10th level, you're playing a different style of D&D than most folks I know (which is not a criticism).

Tucker's Kobolds say hi.
BTW. I don't see where Vicorth said that kobolds pose a threat to his 10th level party. And if he said it (and I'm simply blind or suck at reading comprehension) then note that he was talking about kobolds with traps. Again, Tucker's Kobolds say hello. Not to mention that "kobolds" doesn't really say much about how credible a threat they are, because they could be more than just Warrior 1's. A few kobold Sorcerers could piss in a 10th level party's cheerios pretty good.

[InnaBinder]

Tucker's Kobolds are an old story from a previous edition.  As presented, their tactics are not much threat against a reasonably prepared 10th level party unless they've had levels and/or templates added to them - neither of which were stipulated by any of Vicorth's posts as far as I can discern.

[ImperatorK]

Tucker's Kobolds are an old story from a previous edition.

The principle still stands. Clever tactics can make even weaker opponents a threat. Geez. Just because we're talking about kobolds and I mentioned Tucker's Kobolds doesn't mean I meant literally them.

neither of which were stipulated by any of Vicorth's posts as far as I can discern.

And neither was it stipulated that they're stock kobolds.

[veekie]

Isn't the whole point of Tucker's Kobolds being that they ARE stock kobolds, who never engaged the party in a straight fight, using traps and superior control of the environment to give the PCs hell?

[ImperatorK]

AGAIN, don't take what I said LITERALLY. It's the principle I was pointing at, not the literal Tucker's Kobolds. And I was talking about kobolds in Vicorth's example, not Tucker's kobolds.

[Amechra]

I do know that my medium-op level 6 party would die if I pulled a Tucker's Kobolds with Goblins. Because they are silly people, and don't know to carry a means of making light with them (Tier 1+2s are banned, and no-one's got Light on their list), and don't have Darkvision.

CR 1/3s are a lot more threatening if you have them in small tunnels in the dark... Especially if they burn a lot of incense (pretty much blocks Scent), and stick to the edge of their darkvision range as much as possible.

After all, after a few javelins coming from god-knows-where, all targeting their flat-foot AC (I don't think any of the people in my game have Uncanny Dodge), which probably have Aid Another benefits, people start moving towards the darkened area.

Which is where some mundane rubble, set up like a maze through-out the passageway, comes in real handy.

Add in the penalties for squeezing in combat, and you've got the medium-sized PCs at serious disadvantage.

However, canonically, any group of Goblins pulling of that plan has bigger fish organizing them, so...

So, yeah, a buncha weak characters can, as long as the party doesn't include Tier 1+2s, pose a threat to a decent ECL 6-8 party.

[InnaBinder]

I do know that my medium-op level 6 party would die if I pulled a Tucker's Kobolds with Goblins. Because they are silly people, and don't know to carry a means of making light with them (Tier 1+2s are banned, and no-one's got Light on their list), and don't have Darkvision.

CR 1/3s are a lot more threatening if you have them in small tunnels in the dark... Especially if they burn a lot of incense (pretty much blocks Scent), and stick to the edge of their darkvision range as much as possible.

After all, after a few javelins coming from god-knows-where, all targeting their flat-foot AC (I don't think any of the people in my game have Uncanny Dodge), which probably have Aid Another benefits, people start moving towards the darkened area.

Which is where some mundane rubble, set up like a maze through-out the passageway, comes in real handy.

Add in the penalties for squeezing in combat, and you've got the medium-sized PCs at serious disadvantage.

However, canonically, any group of Goblins pulling of that plan has bigger fish organizing them, so...

So, yeah, a buncha weak characters can, as long as the party doesn't include Tier 1+2s, pose a threat to a decent ECL 6-8 party.

So, if they're less than moderately optimized, and less than 10th level.  Agreed.

[Amechra]

Less "less than moderately optimized" and "never had a DM that made them do a dungeon crawl."

Most of my players are used to tactics for either wide open spaces or in pretty spacious hallways; they haven't figured out torches = good, or "always buy 100 pieces of chalk. Always."

[Unbeliever]

Less "less than moderately optimized" and "never had a DM that made them do a dungeon crawl."

Most of my players are used to tactics for either wide open spaces or in pretty spacious hallways; they haven't figured out torches = good, or "always buy 100 pieces of chalk. Always."

Alternatively, they can just be playing a different kind of D&D game.  Traps have, not entirely unfairly, been associated with the forensic pathologist approach to D&D (a line I am lifting from some old Dragon Mag article).  Y'know what I mean -- the one where you check for traps every 10 feet or where every character is the master of manipulating things with 10 ft. poles.  This, along with keeping track of torches and some various other things, can be reasonably characterized as at odds with D&D's heroic adventuring roots.  Aragorn has a torch when he needs one.  Despite Tolkien's seeming obsession with preparation scenes, there aren't any scenes of them looking for water, torches, etc.

I'm not saying that kind of micromanagement is inherently bad.  If I were playing a Dark Sun game, for instance, I'd expect to keep track of water rations.  But, that's a special case where it's been highlighted as a key game dynamic.

Of course, take that with a little bit of a grain of salt -- I routinely forget to roll my hit points until the first fight comes around. 

[Amechra]

Thing is, I'm not making them micromanage; if they have "torches" on their sheet, they've got torches, and that's that. Chalk is just nice because it lets you use Arcane Mark as an Ex ability! (I kid, I kid...)

Take that with a grain of salt, though; I'm the kind of player who when asked what I have in my inventory will say "100 pieces of chalk, 100 pieces of rope, 10 torches, ten-foot pole, a few rations..."

All of those items have saved my character's life in the past, no joke (the chalk was... less direct).

I have yet to find a DM that lets me take Weapon Proficiency (Improvised Weapons), or who would let me apply feats that only apply to a specific weapon to Improvised Weapons. But I can dream, I can dream...

[Unbeliever]

Is there any reason at all a DM should give a shit about improvised weapons?  Setting aside some shenanigans that I seem to recall with ladder-fu and 50 ft. reach (which would get you a jaundiced look from me at least), I cannot conceive of a reason I would care.  Hell, feel free to enchant you're pitons if you like (innuendo ho!). 

[Amechra]

No there isn't, but they always get hot and bothered when I ask. Apparently beaning people with chalk so hard that their heads are smashed in is not "serious" enough...

[ImperatorK]

I'll kill you with my tea cup. Vin Diesel can make anything serious enough.

[Unbeliever]

That's apparently your problem:  your voice isn't gravelly enough.  Or, maybe you have too much hair? 

I would probably give you shit for throwing chalk -- I need my campaigns a bit more serious than that.  But, if you want to use beer bottles or sticks or random farm implements (80% of which are medieval weapons anyway) I couldn't really care. 

[Amechra]

I look like a mildly more hairy Gendo Ikari. That may be it...

[veekie]

Mostly because of seriousness concerns, but also stats. The rules don't really say a whole lot about making improvised weapons interesting, so you generally wind up with a 1dX weapon with no other traits that breaks after a few good whacks. They could be more, but 'serious gamers' really hate that sorta stuff.